Antler Point Restrictions and Slot Limits?

[Basseyes]

Anyone else see the similarities?

Years ago slot limits were met with fear and outrage. Now most willingly embrace them.

Protecting young bucks could go the same way.

I guess we'll have to just wait and see how it plays out.

[96trigger]

What it comes down to is that most people do not like change, and they don't like to be told what they can and cannot do. It will be interesting to say the least.

[PEATMOSS]

On the surface it would seem to be very similar, but there are marked differences in both the reasoning for implementing them and in their outcomes.

Slot limits were imposed to protect prime breeding females. Their implementation was based on sound biological need. All fishermen are asked to sacrifice equally by releasing fish within the slot. As a result, all fishermen benifit from the outcome. Those that fish primarily to catch a meal of fish benifit by an increase in numbers of eating sized fish. The recreational angler benifits by having more and bigger fish to catch and release and the trophy fisherman will see more walleyes reach wallhanger size.

APR's protect young males. Their implementation is based primarily on the social desire among some hunters to see more, larger antlered bucks in the herd. Hunters are disproportionally asked to sacrifice and recieve disproportional benifits. Those with limited time to hunt and those that hunt marginal hunting land will have diminished opportunities.Hunters that have work/family situations that allow them to spend a large amount of time afield as well as those that own/have access to quality hunting land will enjoy the benifits.

Hence, we bang heads on this issue day after day.

[Hoyt4]

I just like to hunt should not have the antler restrictions.Too many hunters becoming about status.Who can shoot the bigger buck or the need to shoot a big buck.Go out and scout put the work in and your time will pay off.

[Jameson]

Antler Point Restrictions = minimum length limits

Their generally isn't a high and low number to APR's so they are better compared to minimum length requirements.

If we wish to compare APR's to slots than we need to have a high limit that with anything over that not being killed. Like a 7-9 point Antler Point Slot Restriction.

[ejf76]

APR's protect young males. Their implementation is based primarily on the social desire among some hunters to see more, larger antlered bucks in the herd. Hunters are disproportionally asked to sacrifice and recieve disproportional benifits. Those with limited time to hunt and those that hunt marginal hunting land will have diminished opportunities.Hunters that have work/family situations that allow them to spend a large amount of time afield as well as those that own/have access to quality hunting land will enjoy the benifits.

PEATMOSS, this is fundamentally where your theory on this thread and others has a large hole in it. These APR's will help the "average" hunter the most. (Asssuming average is those you referred to with limited time in the field or marginal hunting land) If you already hunt "premiere" hunting land, then this practice is in place and it won't make more than a marginal difference. The survey of hunters that said they wanted protection on younger bucks is made up of those "average" hunters that see big bucks being shot in the same area/county and wonder why they never see any or have those opportunities. There is no doubt that the APR's will make it better for them if they can handle the one year where there will be a significant drop in the buck harvest.

There are a lot of deer in Zone 3 that at 2.5 years old are considered trophies by many "average" hunters. This rule change will do more for them than it will for those waiting on the 4.5/5.5 monsters that still will be rare and tough to kill.

Now i would be flat out lying to say this isn't being pushed by those with the "premiere" opportunities and spend more time in the field. These people want bigger bucks/racks, but these APR's will not have a major impact on that if those deer are harvested once they get to 2.5 yrs old. Ths is why as someone who has made the choice to pass on those younger deer, I am not sure if the APR is worth the hassle. I think there are better ways to go about it. But where I hunt borders 4,000 acres of state land, which i hunt on occasion, that gets an UNBELIEVABLE amount of hunting pressure. So I hope to get some good firsthand observations on how the hunting in the area changes for the "average" hunters because of the APR's.

[schmoe147]

I think with all this change it seems overwelming at the moment but in a couple years when there are more quality deer and numbers are up people will be happy. Trophy hunters will have more chance at bigger deer and meat hunters will have more quality deer to shoot to. I think we all would be happy to see deer numbers go up.

[picksbigwagon]

Hence, we bang heads on this issue day after day.

+1.....................

[PEATMOSS]

You are making quite a leap when you assume that everyone cares as much about antlers as you do. Like many others, I find big bucks kind of cool, but antlers are so far down the list of priorities I can't begin to describe it. Simply put, thanks for your concern, but we don't want your help.

[Musky Buck]

I'd like to see some form of change, when old zone 4 switched to the 9 day season it changed the game a lot. Sure we get more days plus 3 weekends of muzzy, but it's a bit tough to shoot between midnite and 5 AM with open sights. jk, but the biggest factor where a lot of us hunt is pressure, heavy heavy no one is ever done hunting pressure where every field has stands and every 5 acres has a stand, the future mature buck hunt has really gotten much much tougher and the overall herd is getting younger.

[BobT]

I haven't seen anyone that supports APR yet provide what they are asking for in terms of point restrictions. What is your proposal? Must have at least a fork, 3 on a side, 12, what? I might be more interested in accepting APR if I knew more about what you are asking me to do.

[ejf76]

You are making quite a leap when you assume that everyone cares as much about antlers as you do. Like many others, I find big bucks kind of cool, but antlers are so far down the list of priorities I can't begin to describe it. Simply put, thanks for your concern, but we don't want your help.

PEATMOSS, you are so close-minded that you refuse to try to understand the issues that ZONE 3 hunters have shown they care about. If a big buck is far down your priority list, then great, that is absolutely your choice. But guys with your attitude are the same ones that see a forkie chasing a doe through the woods and blast the buck just to say they shot a buck, but then chuck the horns in the garbage. Or are the guys that get 15 of their buddies together to drive a chunk of woods and don't want to have to worry about identifying their target, just blast and see what it looks like when its dead.

Do you hunt in this zone? If not, then these rule changes aren't trying to help you and or have nothing to do with the concern ZONE 3 hunters have for you.

[ejf76]

I haven't seen anyone that supports APR yet provide what they are asking for in terms of point restrictions. What is your proposal? Must have at least a fork, 3 on a side, 12, what? I might be more interested in accepting APR if I knew more about what you are asking me to do.

BobT, the current regulation changes in Zone 3 require 4 points on at least one side. The statistics show this will protect 67% of 1.5 year old bucks, and there will be less than 10% of 2.5 year olds that aren't legal to shoot.

[Bear55]

APR's protect young males. Their implementation is based primarily on the social desire among some hunters to see more, larger antlered bucks in the herd. Hunters are disproportionally asked to sacrifice and recieve disproportional benifits. Those with limited time to hunt and those that hunt marginal hunting land will have diminished opportunities.Hunters that have work/family situations that allow them to spend a large amount of time afield as well as those that own/have access to quality hunting land will enjoy the benifits.

Hence, we bang heads on this issue day after day.

PEAT I'm sorry but APR's do affect everyone equally, if I don't have as much time to fish or hunt then I just don't have time the laws are the same for both of us. Lets say I'm incredibly busy in the summer and only get out fishing 1-2 weekends a year, how is that any different then you only getting out 1-2 weekends a year deer hunting. The laws are the same for both of us. We all have our outdoor priorities and we do the best with what free time we have.

I will agree that it is kind of an apple to oranges comparison but there are some biological benefits to a balanced deer herd. The only reason people compare slots to APR's is because people now accept the slots and in state were APR's have been in use for some time they are accepted by a large majority of hunters.

[PEATMOSS]

PEATMOSS, you are so close-minded that you refuse to try to understand the issues that ZONE 3 hunters have shown they care about. If a big buck is far down your priority list, then great, that is absolutely your choice. But guys with your attitude are the same ones that see a forkie chasing a doe through the woods and blast the buck just to say they shot a buck, but then chuck the horns in the garbage. Or are the guys that get 15 of their buddies together to drive a chunk of woods and don't want to have to worry about identifying their target, just blast and see what it looks like when its dead.

Do you hunt in this zone? If not, then these rule changes aren't trying to help you and or have nothing to do with the concern ZONE 3 hunters have for you. [/quo

ej

Your assumptions aren't real accurate or helpful. I'm just a man that enjoys getting up on opener, making breakfast for the crew and heading out to our stands. I don't target bucks or does, just the first adult animal that presents a clean safe shot. Likewise for the rest of my small party. We get excited on those rare occasions that we crack a big one, but it is far from the focus of our hunt. We enjoy our traditions and just wish to be left alone.

I do not hunt Z3 and have no intention of ever doing so. If I believed that this was not going to ever be pushed statewide, I'd never even bother to post on the subject.

[schmoe147]

Give it a couple years with new regulations and everyone will like it. People just dont like change.

[PEATMOSS]

bear, some cliffs notes for you.

slot limits-equal sacrifice/equal benifit regardless of ones level of participation

apr's-disproportionally favor avid hunters and landowners

If my county adds $1000 to everyones property taxes county wide, it's the same law for everyone, but it's gonna affect people differently. Tracking?

[Bear55]

I do not hunt Z3 and have no intention of ever doing so. If I believed that this was not going to ever be pushed statewide, I'd never even bother to post on the subject.

PEAT you have to see that the possibility of APR's in lotto areas is slim to none and probably not an option for half or more of the managed areas. I know its a fear of yours and many others but I just don't see it happening without having a very large deer population/density in these areas.

[Bear55]

apr's-disproportionally favor avid hunters and landowners

And slots don't favor those avid fishermen with large boats and plenty of time? I'm certainly not upset when I can only fish one weekend and have to throw back a few eyes and an avid fishermen is out every weekend and keeps a few meals and a trophy, they earned it.

If anything I would say those willing to put in time will be rewarded while those who don't might come home empty handed. I know that sound crazy fair but its true.

[PEATMOSS]

No bear they don't. Slots have an equal benefit/sacrifice ratio across the spectrum. You are being obtuse.

[BobT]

Quote:

the current regulation changes in Zone 3 require 4 points on at least one side. The statistics show this will protect 67% of 1.5 year old bucks, and there will be less than 10% of 2.5 year olds that aren't legal to shoot.

What's the reason for choosing 4 points? The problem as I see it is that by the time a person can count the number of points on one antler or the other, the opportunity could be lost in many if not most cases. So in effect the regulation actually protects more than just those deer carrying less than 4 on a side. Naturally for those who would like that number even higher than 4, this is not a problem. Forget about hunting with open sights as the deer would have to be pretty close to be able to count the points with accuracy.

[ejf76]

ej

Your assumptions aren't real accurate or helpful. I'm just a man that enjoys getting up on opener, making breakfast for the crew and heading out to our stands. I don't target bucks or does, just the first adult animal that presents a clean safe shot. Likewise for the rest of my small party. We get excited on those rare occasions that we crack a big one, but it is far from the focus of our hunt. We enjoy our traditions and just wish to be left alone.

I do not hunt Z3 and have no intention of ever doing so. If I believed that this was not going to ever be pushed statewide, I'd never even bother to post on the subject.

PEATMOSS, I would hope that my assumptions being wrong would help you realize that yours might be as well. Not all people in support of this APR are the big bad trophy hunters with lots of money and acres upon acres of private land, that could really care less about the deer just the mount on the wall. Some are exactly like that, some half way there, and some just want the rush of seeing a big buck a little more often.

[96trigger]

Quote:

What's the reason for choosing 4 points? The problem as I see it is that by the time a person can count the number of points on one antler or the other, the opportunity could be lost in many if not most cases.

Really? I have never had a problem identfying a spike buck or a basket rack. Zone 3 is shotgun, if they are too far away to identify, they are probably too far away to shoot for the "average" hunter. I know some claim to be able to make a 200 yard shot with a shotgun, I guess I am not that good. In all my years hunting, I can not recall one instance where I wouldn't have had time to identify a deer and still pull the trigger, even during deer drives I could always identify a buck from a doe and a mature buck from a spike. If it looks at all like its not a mature buck, don't shoot it.

Went out fishing yesterday, cought a couple nice walleyes and sauger, but all were under 15 inches, couple of them 14 3/4. I never had one problem throwing every one of them back. Came home empty handed. I don't have GPS, I don't have a 20,000 dollar boat or $200 fishing poles. Yet I don't feel slighted.

I don't know how people can argue that it is so different. I can't shoot a buck that doesn't meet the criteria, just like I can't keep a walleye that doesn't meet the criteria. Peat, you constantly mention that you shoot the first adult deer, buck or doe. Do you honestly think that a fork or basket is an adult deer? I honestly, do not. Maybe a teenager, but cetainly not an adult.

[Basseyes]

Out west they have APR's for elk and mule deer. It is widely supported not only for trophy quality but more over for overall herd health.

Is the attitude of trophy hunters and QDM more the problem than the actual antler point restrictions themselves?

If the DNR explained it and came across doing it more for herd health than trophy opportunities would that do anything to help the general public understand there is a bigger picture here than just antler size and tradition.

IMO it's similar to politics. Polarized attitudes without thought or care about opposing opinions is a bad deal all the way around.

To think that our deer herd is in balance when buck to doe ratios are way off then there does need to be some change in certain areas. That is not just a social issue but a biological one. Lots of deer does not mean you have a healthy deer herd. It impacts a deer's habitat as well as all other creatures that inhabit that same habitat. That's the bigger picture that gets ignored. IMO the bigger social issue the DNR has been fighting for years in zone 3 is not cowering to trophy hunters but to traditionalists who want it to stay the way it was when grand pa still hunted. On the other side of the coin APR's are in nature going to be an uphill battle and I believe they should be. Nothing ever worth having should come easy. APR supporters need to understand that deer hunting has a very diverse group of guys that enjoy spending time with family and friends. They perceive any intrusion into how that is regulated as a threat to themselves and their families. Questioning APR's and QDM in my mind is a great opportunity for its supporters to really show what they have to offer the general public.

[PEATMOSS]

Trigger-My favorite deer for steaks and chops is in fact a yearling, for roasts and burger, the bigger the better. Our harvest is usually a mix of the 2 which is nice.

See Cliffs notes on walleye slots vs apr's. The difference is quite clear for those willing to think about it.