Tag Soup...

[Neighbor_guy]

Anyone else eating it? Got any good side dishes?

I would just like to take a moment to thank the MN DNR for accepting my "donation" $42.00 worth of resident firearms tags. As well as my fathers "donation" of $42.00.

Dang that is one expensive ($84) bowl of soup!!!!

My family has been hunting the same 160 acres of mixed woods, swamp, grass land, and pasture just south of Onamia in zone 157 for the last 17 years. Of that 17 years, we have had 15 very good seasons. For the first 12 years we would average 20 deer sightings per day. A few years ago, we were happy to see 20 deer in an entire season, (archery and rifle combined) last year, hunting both seasons, we saw 5. FIVE!!! This year we saw, keep in mind we hunted all three weekends and a couple of week days, wait for it..... ONE!!!! Thats two guys, 117 hours on stand and ONE deer seen.

The deer we did get last season was so full of corn she could hardly walk. Funny, you say, "Neighbor guy, you didn't list corn in your list of property discriptors?" Your right, I didn't, infact the closest corn field from out property is 4 miles away. Guess all the alfalfa and clover, oaks, as well as the other NATURARALLY occuring food just dont compete with bags of corn. I wonder which surounding property that could have been?

I'm just glad I was not introducing a new hunter to the sport this season. When you have a grown man with 20 years of whitetails under his belt, and his father with 38 years under his belt wondering were the fun is in it. You know it it bad.

Now I know you dont control the weather. I can not blame you for the rain. I do hold you somewhat responsible for the complete decimation of the deer herd. Now while we tried hard to manage our property, never removing more than 4 deer per season, even in years of excess, and trying hard to select which does we shot, and putting a 6 or better policy on bucks, and I admit, we shot more does than bucks. But everyone said, shoot does, shoot does, get your buck to doe ratio closer, what ever. Problem is, you cant control what the neighbors shoot. (and they like to shoot ) Not so much this year. Nobody was shooting this year.

Now I am not a biologist, and I dont spend my entire year going over harvest records and trends. But I am going to give you my imput anyways. Make it easy, you get ONE deer, doe, buck whatever it may be, but you get one,or two but not in the same season. And start to figure a way to account for the deer the Wolves are eating. There is at least one Wolf Pack in the Onamia area. I saw three of them last season, and the scat was evident this season as well. Some may deny it, but I have seen and shot enough coyote's and seen enough wolves to know the differance in the two, as well as the sign asociated with them.

Sorry for the rant, I am just a bit frustrated. This is the first time in 17 years that we got completely skunked.

Here's to "hopping" to get a "good" road kill. Good think I have an insider in the road kill department. Of coarse the way the population is, and good job if this was the intention, road kill is down too.

[Gordie]

I went thru the same thing last season first time in thirdy years that I didnt tag a deer saw deer just no shots I hunt with the all-season and hunted 13 of the 16 day season for zone 1 and also hunted all three weekends of the black powder season which I never saw a deer.

I look at it as sometime this will happen to even the best of hunters and learned from it. not sure what but I tell myself I learned from it BTW I had my son out for his first deer hunt ever and I probally had the most fun and laughs that I have ever had on deer opener so I did make memorys that will last a life time.

PS my bowl of tag soup was a little more expensive last year.

[JimmyJames]

[note from admin- please read forum policy before posting again]

[CANOPY SAM]

Not to be contrary, but honestly, in an average year only 1 in 3 hunters fills a deer tag in the great state of Minnesota. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the DNR, or anyone for lack of managment.

In know it's dissapointing to go home empty-handed, but I've talked to dozens of folks this year that really struggled to fill tags.

The very mild weather, and clear, moon-filled night skies played a huge part in deer movement this year. Of course, if your neighbors are baiting that obviously impacts what you'll see in your area.

I witnessed an extraordinary amount of hunting pressure (particularly road hunting pressure) that quickly drove everything nocturnal as well.

Most years I take a deer or two for the table, but not every year. It's especially dissappointing when you work really, really hard to get one, and are left empty handed.

It's certainly possible that deer numbers are down though. We're still not seeing much for deer movement up around our area, and the rifle season closed in our zone (208) almost 10 days ago.

There have been numerous articles written this year about the rampant deer baiting problems going on in our state. It's really too bad people place so much value on bagging whitetails for the freezer. If you sit down and do the math, overall cost, and time invested for pound for pound return, it's much less expensive to buy top quality beef in the grocery store.

[CANOPY SAM]

By-the-way, I love the phrase "tag soup". If I could get back all the tags I've left unfilled since I was 14 years old I could whip up quite a feast!!!

[Monkster]

Neighbor Guy - I am also in 157 near Sandstone. I am eating the same soup. I went out Sunday for the last day, hoping to get a glimpse of a tail or something...nothing! I still see fresh tracks in the mud, so they must be moving in the night. Weather, neighbors feeding, standing corn, all factors I suppose. I am too devoted to teaching my son how to hunt to give up. I guess all it takes is one nice deer (buck or doe) to walk by next year to make my season hunting with my son. I will stick with archery also, seems like more chances and less yahoos in the woods.

[Gissert]

I am having tag soup as well. Not a big deal to me, sometimes things just do not work out.

I don't think I would enjoy the hunt nearly as much if I knew I was going to connect every year. The anticipation for the chance to connect is the real thrill for me.

[96trigger]

My archery tag is left, its circling the hot water broth, but I am not ready to eat it yet. I still have a month. But I am limited to a lotto area, and they are heavily pressured.

[picksbigwagon]

Neighbor_Guy, I am assuming you called the DNR, your local DNR agent in your area to report the gut full of corn you shot last year. The only way people who are putting out bait are going to be caught is for us hunters to report them. Yeah I know that you won't know for sure which neighbor is baiting, but they can put a plane up in the sky pretty easily and fly over the area in question. A pile of corn is pretty easy to see from the sky....

[swampbuck]

I have to agree that the baiting is a problem. I have a couple great private spots that I hunt, before the gun season I was seeing 5-10 deer per night. These properties are 60-80 acres. During the gun season, I saw one deer? I only hunt the stands on the right winds, and do not over hunt any oof the stands.

This has happened the last couple of years. I went for a short walk yesterday through some of the neighboring properties and jumped a lot of deer, sure enough where I jumped the deer there were remnants of corn piles around stand sights.

It is tough to hunt hard and then have a lot of the deer pulled away because of baiting.

The deer always seem to filter back within a week or two after gun season.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Now I know you dont control the weather. I can not blame you for the rain. I do hold you somewhat responsible for the complete decimation of the deer herd. Now while we tried hard to manage our property, never removing more than 4 deer per season, even in years of excess, and trying hard to select which does we shot, and putting a 6 or better policy on bucks, and I admit, we shot more does than bucks. But everyone said, shoot does, shoot does, get your buck to doe ratio closer, what ever. Problem is, you cant control what the neighbors shoot. (and they like to shoot ) Not so much this year. Nobody was shooting this year.

Here might be part of the problem, and its nothing that you alone have done or that many others around the state aren't also doing, but it might be the biggest reason for your reduced deer sightings.

Break deer management down into the number of deer per section of land (i.e. average deer per square mile numbers in MN can range greatly, but in that area it is estimated there are 11-20 deer per square mile according to the DNR). So if you have 20 deer per sq. mile on the high end (1 deer per 32 acres), that is 5 deer per 160 acres.

So if you take 4 deer off of 160 acres in any one year, you are harvesting (potentially) 4 of the 5 deer the land is theoretically carrying. If you are doing this on an annual basis, you most certainly have the potential to reduce the overall herd size for the property and the surrounding property over time, as the reproduction rate and recruitment likely cannot keep up. Now if all of your neighbors are hunting, and averaging the same number of deer shot per year as you are, you can see how new deer recruitment onto your land and overall herd size in the immediate area can be greatly impacted.

Obviously this is not a scientific fact because there are thousands of factors to consider, but it is a sound theory that needs to be considered. The overall fact is that you only have 160 acres, and if all the neighbors are hunting small tracts of land with the same number of guys as you, the area can be over hunted quite easily. So even if you were only allowed only one deer per person, if you average one hunter per 40 acres (4 guys per 160 piece of property) in your sq mile of land, you potentially have 16 tags that can be filled anyways (or up to 80% of a 20 deer/sq. mile herd could be killed annually without bonus tags).

Its simply a numbers game, if your area is being over hunted, the number of tags doesn't matter since the deer simply cannot reproduce fast enough to fill the recruitment needs to keep the herd stable. I think over 12-15 years, you are maybe seeing the effects of overhunting (even if you weren't filling bonus tags - if your neighbors were, it could make it even worse).

[Musky Buck]

It was a tough season for many. From the early doe hunt to 5 tags to few deer. I thought my area would be good as there were a lot of unharvested corn fields so I figured lots of them survived the hunt last year, our group of 23 hunters had our worst year ever. It isn't like magically muzzleloader will be good, the ones that are left have moved into city limits or they are burning mid-night oil. I think many areas are overhunted with a stand on every 5 acre patch or field, the good ol days are toast, it isn't likely many will give up deer hunting and marginal lands people know to shoot what they can get a chance at. It finally is catching up, I mean it has caught up.

[vister]

looks like you forgot the crackers! This year was slow for some and hot for others. our party of 8 took 3 bucks, 3 does, and a nubbin buck. so it was an average year for us.

i've only had tag soup once since i started hunting at the age of 12, and regardless of shooting 0 deer, it was still a great season being out in the woods anyways. hey, at least it wasn't 20 below with driving snow in your face this year. that would make getting skunked that much more painful. but you'd have a nice warm bowl of tag soup to eat! a nice comfort food

[Bear55]

This is just an off the wall idea but I wonder if the deer are getting just a little smarter. With all the new knowledge hunters have learned in the past 20-25 years we certainly know the deer a lot better than we did back in the day. It might not be too far fetched to think the deer maybe learned a thing or two about us in that time as well, especially since the pressure on these deer are greater then ever before. Once they feel that pressure they just don't move during daylight hours.

Now most of us on here are the diehards who probably shoot a deer every year, we put in our time and pass many deer over the course of a season. However for guy who only get out a handfull of days a year this could make life pretty difficult. No doubt deer numbers are down state wide and that could be a major reason but maybe we should give the deer a little credit too, overall we are certinaly easier to pattern then they are.

[Musky Buck]

If the numbers are where the DNR wants them to be then expect more of the same for years, maybe a few years with lots around and many with less around. I think many turned to baiting as numbers dwindled over the past 3 seasons also. I do know a severe winter which we are due for could really change things. I heard numerous wolf stories and encounters further north. The areas I've noticed the most deer in seem to be owned by few with larger hunks of land. Not so many years ago everyone was on my case shoot does etc. I haven't seen a doe in 18 days of rifle hunting spanning 3 years now on 4 separate properties in 3 counties. This seeing few deer really puts pressure on the few that are around. But, times change.

[Musky Buck]

Bingo Bear, by October 15th each year we rarely see a deer in our fields before dark. The deer in my area find the scentfree bedding ground and will not move or change locations until pressured again. My HSO name Musky Buck, because muskies act like bucks often, nocturnal, prime weather they move, low density in numbers, not caught off guard too often and just when you think you have a pattern you don't. Tons of similarities between muskies and mature bucks, actually gettting to be more similarities between deer and muskies, those old does are plenty smart. My trailcam this week is showing between 2-5 AM the deer are entering the field, without a drive or me scenting up where they bed this pattern is likely to continue.

[McGurk]

...It might not be too far fetched to think the deer maybe learned a thing or two about us in that time as well, especially since the pressure on these deer are greater then ever before.

I can see it now... subscriptions to "Indoor Life" and "Couch and Table" laying around... a TV on with ILN on showing "Getting Close with Buck and Doe"... Deer standing around a map showing known stand locations and routes to avoid... Getting to bed early at 5 AM... Sleeping all day so they can get up early at 5:30 PM to go eat... Taking extra baths to disguise their musk...

Seriously, though, I have hunted only 20 years and had our zone switch as follows:

-only a few doe permits given (few deer taken by our party)

-every applicant getting a doe permit (few deer taken by our party)

-dropping the permit completely (party routinely were able to each take a deer)

-knee-jerking into an Intensive Harvest zone (party were able to each take a deer)

-switching from the pick-a-weekend zone 4 to a 9-day zone 2 zone (starting to decline again)

-this year backing down into a Management Zone (the last 3 years with the poorest hunting ever)

Granted, I like that there is some involvement from the DNR, but I think they should not have opened the flood gates as fast as they did. I know that CWD moved alot of this along recently (reduce common feeding area pressure), and I don't have a problem with someone taking more than 1 deer, but 5 deer? I know for a fact that there were people taking their maximum allowable deer, and donating or simply throwing most of it away.

There are weather and moonlight factors relating to the last 5+ years (I remember my first years knee deep in snow and wearing every piece of clothing I had) but I hope the DNR throttles back a little bit. I would like to see them completely do away with Intensive Harvest, and maybe institute an Earn-a-Buck program instead in a deer heavy area. Removing breeders will thin a herd and improve the overall quality of Bucks. The Doe permit system isn't a bad way to go in deer-scarce areas, but really thins out the chance of getting a quality buck.

It all comes down to trophy-hunters vs. freezer-stuffers, really, and in my opinion tag soup stinks for the whole winter.

[Boar]

Sorry to hear some of you guys are having a tough year, I feel very fortunate to have my freezer full of deer an a bear, an there is room for one more deer as I plan on spending muzzleloader with my best freind. I am fortunate because this is the first time in five years my freezer has seen deer. In my area I do know that when the lead starts flying the deer get nocturnal an make muzzy hunting verry tough, I not out for five deer but the deer I have taken an hope to take will be utilzzed. Call me a freezer stuffer but it centainly is'nt stuffed ervery year, I might have deer on ice but I sure would like to have some ofthe bone that some of you guys have collected. Again sorry some of you are having a tough year. Hard water is soon here an will make everything better. Later boar

[Musky Buck]

I feel the change in farming country from zone 4 to zone 2 is a major reason. You chose your weekend, doe permits were distributed. Now 5 deer possible with a 9 day hunt really thinned the herd down not to mention the usual road kill, illegal harvest, winter, wolves. The first deer taken are often tagged by hunters who hunt the least and it works up from there. No one is ever done hunting as long as someone has a tag so the pressure is on 9 straight days instead of old zone 4. I feel for traditional muzzy hunters, they had the rug swept out from under them. Used to be what maybe 20,000 muzzy hunters before all-season, projections are roughly 60,000 today ? Bet it won't go back down anytime soon.

[Boar]

No doubt th echange around here from choose two or four days to hunt with three deer possible to a nine day blood bath up to five deer has thinned thing a bit, wouldnt mind seeing go back to choose your weekend. Boar

[lakevet]

More like 10,000 then up to close to 70,000 muzzy hunters. Woods used to be very quiet and you could shoot anything. DNR didn't worry about the muzzy harvest because it was so low. Even when doe permits were rare for firearms hunters. The season did get hijacked with the reg changes allowing multiple license purchase. Now more people muzzy hunting keeping the deer pressured for another 16 days and hunters competing for prime spots and having to apply for doe permits.

Do we need to go back to having hunters choose options for firearms and not be able to hunt so many seasons? Now you can shotgun down southern MN then finish out rifle up north then muzzy for 16 days. That has to have an impact on the deer herd. Iowa makes you choose between one of 4 seasons (early shotgun, late shotgun, early muzzy, or late muzzy) for your. Less crowding of hunters and limits deer harvest (esp bucks) by managing time hunters are allowed to pursue deer.

I want the DNR to be funded, but I think they will resist this because loss of license sales. One hunter used to be only able to buy 2 licenses (a firearms or muzzy and an archery). Now you can buy a firearms plus two early antlerless plus 5 bonus licenses plus muzzy plus archery. Total = 10 deer licenses.

We needed to reduce the deer herd, but if it has been reduced to target levels I think its very reasonable for hunters to choose options rather than to be able to hunt all seasons all over the state.

lakevet

[Neighbor_guy]

Neighbor_Guy, I am assuming you called the DNR, your local DNR agent in your area to report the gut full of corn you shot last year. The only way people who are putting out bait are going to be caught is for us hunters to report them. Yeah I know that you won't know for sure which neighbor is baiting, but they can put a plane up in the sky pretty easily and fly over the area in question. A pile of corn is pretty easy to see from the sky....

Oddly enough I did see the dnr plane this year. They looped around a couple of times. And since the property we hunt on has an air strip on it, it would have been real convenient for them to stop by. See, the 160 I claim also contains another 80+ of air strip and hay fields that we dont "hunt", to close to the road. (hwy 169)

Like I said, I felt like our management style was going well. Our "party" never had more than 4 in it. (Durring the "boom" of the 90's) We would be selective on our does. Making sure we shot "non breeding" does = yearlings, or the real old maids. Leaving anything with less than 6 points. I dont think we ever took more than 2 bucks of the property in any given season.

Just one of those things I guess. While some of us try to "manage" a deer herd with 2 guys on 160, some of the neighbors are trying to "manage" the same herd, or parts of it, with 13 guys on 20.

FWIW the people who live on the property have only seen 2 deer feeding in the fields since august. Just plain nothing there. Hard to think about trying to find something else. That property was not the "perfect" property, but it was a nice place to hunt for a long time. Now.... tuff.......

[96trigger]

At least they are changing. We have to remember that it takes time to notice the changes. The state went from few deer, to too many deer, in just a few short years.

Its a pretty delicate balancing act where there are many independent factors varying the harvest like crops, weather, rut phase etc....

When I take a shower, I like a nice even temperature, I hate cold showers. Sometimes, my wife startst the washing machine without letting me know, shower gets cold, kid flushes the toilet, shower gets even colder. As a reaction I crank up to as hot as it will go, all the sudden the washing machine quits filling, and toilet guits running, OUCH, scalding hot now.

Managing the deer population is similar. Awhile back, there was no deer, so they managed for population. Then the numbers rose, deer started to thrive. Permits became a thing of the past, bonus permits were issued and all was good for awhile. Then, the deer hunters had a record year, wolves may have moved in, a harsh winter took out a little bit of the population, a late snowfal lead to a high fawn mortality rate. The numbers aren't there anymore, the DNR needed to scale back to where they were when they were managing for numbers.

These are the things people need to think about instead of just, we need more permits, or we need less permits, the DNR screwed it up, etc... The DNR has to take all of these and more into consideration. We should maybe be more considerate. They don't want to descimate a population any more than you do. They have done great things in some parts of the state.

[Musky Buck]

Right on lakevet, I knew my numbers were off, my dad was a diehard muzzy guy, now there's as much orange around now as there is rifle and the worst part is these guys have harvested deer, just used non-muzzy members tags. A peaceful deer hunt is no longer a possibility. To a guy who has already taken who knows how many deer and "saved" his tag for Muzzy, lots of those folks aren't especially picky because not many have taken a deer by muzzy so given a decent chance and having a mature buck down already from rifle, let er fly. As the hunting becomes tougher lots are firing when given a chance, there was more patience when the herd had more numbers. I'll likely eat my tag and really don't care if I get one or not, but it was more fun just seeing some deer while hunting, so I've been getting the double whammy, few sightings and no mature bucks. Not getting June,July, August,September sightings either because the numbers are pretty low, I get a good idea during those months of what is around as the corn isn't to tall until late July. The bachelor herd groups too are far fewer animals, used to be 6-9 bucks in our field for many years, past 4 years no bachelor herds or 2 bucks. Deer season in my area has turned into what muskie fishing is on lakes of less than 2,000 acres. Combat fishing/ combat hunting. But, all in all thank goodness I had the 80's and 90's to hunt when you actually could hunt, now it's go to your fishhouse/ meaning deer stand for prime time(s) as every patch of cover or field is loaded with stands. What is a deer tag 27 dollars, heck a case of beer isn't much more so why do so many feel this void is they have to eat it?

[Musky Buck]

Agreed Trigger, it can come back, we get a 1996-1997 winter and there will be a chance of no season. Time will tell.