They Shoot Pike, Don't They?

[Muskiefool]

Click here for a creel survey

Spearing is selective for the largest northern

pike in a population. It removes (on average) a

small proportion of the total population and biomass

of northern pike but an increasing proportion

of fish with increasing size. Recreational angling,

by comparison, removes an even greater proportion

of the larger-sized fish in a population. In

recent years, greater emphasis has been placed on

managing recreational fisheries for larger-sized

northern pike. Our estimates of the effects of both

angling and spearing indicate alarmingly high fishing

mortality for large northern pike. Additionally,

conflicts between groups have led to the contention

that both anglers and spearers should follow the

same set of harvest regulations. Therefore, management

actions designed to improve the size

structure of northern pike populations will need to

be directed at all methods of harvest.

[delcecchi]

Click here for a creel survey

Spearing is selective for the largest northern

pike in a population. It removes (on average) a

small proportion of the total population and biomass

of northern pike but an increasing proportion

of fish with increasing size. Recreational angling,

by comparison, removes an even greater proportion

of the larger-sized fish in a population. In

recent years, greater emphasis has been placed on

managing recreational fisheries for larger-sized

northern pike. Our estimates of the effects of both

angling and spearing indicate alarmingly high fishing

mortality for large northern pike. Additionally,

conflicts between groups have led to the contention

that both anglers and spearers should follow the

same set of harvest regulations. Therefore, management

actions designed to improve the size

structure of northern pike populations will need to

be directed at all methods of harvest.

Is this a quote from the Northern Pike mangement plan? It seems to reflect the outsize political influence of the spearers. I noticed in your lake bemidjii creel census data that spearers were responsible for 51 percent of the pounds of northern pike taken. Did I interpret this correctly?

If so, it would indicate that spearers have yet to leave the outdated era of harvest oriented fishing, regardless of all the smoke about "look and release".

Although I note that the data was from 2000/2001 so things might have changed. Any newer data?

[Muskiefool]

The Quote is from "Recreational Darkhouse Spearing for Northern Pike in Minnesota: Historical Changes in Effort and Harvest and Comparisons with Angling."

51% of the total pounds and 51% of the total number with 6% of the angling pressure,,that is the newest data available; I would think another will be done 2010/11.

It takes awhile to digest that creel survey it was a real eye opener for me in light of the claims they have little impact and should be able to take any size regardless of regulation.

Of course this is one lake and results change from lake to lake and some settling occurs during transport as well all know, LOL

[Fish&Fowl]

[quote name='delcecchi

If so' date=' it would indicate that spearers have yet to leave the outdated era of harvest oriented fishing, regardless of all the smoke about "look and release".

[/quote']

By "smoke" are you saying we don't watch big fish go by? You got gonads coming on here and making all these assumptions about a group of sportsmen who enjoy a different way of harvesting fish that has been a life-long tradition for many of them. I urge you again to keep these assumptions to yourself, no one wants to hear them.

[Cast A Way]

Just my thoughts -- I don't believe we can afford to lose any species of fish. Whether or not you like to fish a certain species, there any many that do for enjoyment.

I just like to catch fish -- doesn't matter what kind.

I also believe that the DNRs need to step up fish management to keep up with the increasing pressure from all sports fisherpersons.

Would be a pretty boring life without fishing.

By the way - taking of spawning fish by any method isn't in my favor.

[dogs]

Thanks for the post, I was just thinking of this yesterday and trying to tell some friends of it. Culture...you hit it on the head as I travel I find eel pout are held in higher regards than pike yet we trash them here. Either way sounds fun to me, but then I embrace other cultures I'm just that kind of guy. Thanks again to you and other for the good reads.

Dogs

[delcecchi]

The data presented showed that spearers harvested northern pike in amounts disproportionate to their participation. Perhaps you personally don't harvest many fish spearing but apparently others do.

Can you provide data that would update that at the link? Or any other creel census data comparing the harvest of Northern Pike by spearing to that from angling normalized by participation?

It is my opinion that spearing is harvest oriented. The argument that it makes no difference because there aren't many spearers seems yet to be verified, and the posted link would seem to contradict that.

[ac777]

Wow, It is one lake probably in the whole United states that this is allowed. I think it is a novelty, and should be respected. If they have been doing it for 40+ years, it apparently isn't that detrimental in the fish population, sure it may not be 100% safe, but really what in this world is? I bet if they were shooting carp there would be half the amount of haters, but what's the difference if the pike is considered rough fish there. In Europe, carp is a prized fish, it's all about the mindset. We were raised to think that carp are nasty, rough fish, but in Europe they weren't. I'm not saying I like carp or pike better/worse than the other, but different cultures do things different. And how did the OP relate anything to spearing? Lets respect this sport as we do other outdoor sports.

[delcecchi]

No shortage of big carp. Major shortage of big pike.

Not many people fishing for carp, lots of people fishing for pike.

What is this "haters" stuff? If we disagree about spearing that makes us "haters"? Why would you try to demonize someone for disagreeing with you? Do you feel guilty or something? Do you recognize that you are a small minority?

[JeffB]

I'm sure if I was taken out to shoot pike every spring by my dad I would think it was cool and sporting. I wouldn't want people shooting game fish in our state, but if there state has that tradition I'm not against it. I'm sure they have limits and ways to manage it, but I can see why the game and fish department is against it. What DNR officer wants to go into a marsh and check on a man in a tree with a 30.06.

[AlwysFshn]

I am going to start righting to my state representatives to push for a bill that would allow a firearm season for fishing. Who is with me? Maybe not, but the redneck in me thinks it would be fun to shoot at some carp.

[Muddog]

Shooting a high power rifle over open water? At fish?

How about only shooting spawning Walleyes at night with 375 H&H or greater. Or using dead fall traps for Deer size game. Man these are some great ideas. Now if we can only get the DNR to set the IQ limit for there employees to be 85 or lower.

Get real!

[Random guy]

Wow, this topic is interesting thats for sure.

[fishhawk1750]

What is next, some guy is going to try to catch a huge catfish by sticking his hand in it's mouth without knowing how big the fish is or even if it is a fish.

[merkman]

Do you recognize that you are a small minority?

This is one of those outright lies that just makes a guy chuckle.

According to the Muskies Inc HSOforum there are 7500 members Nationwide.

Last year 15000 darkhouse spearing licenses were sold in Minnesota.

If we feel very generous and assume that every one of these national Muskies Inc members are from Minnesota, it would mean that the darkhouse spearers outnumber Muskies Inc Members 2 to 1.

On top of that, all anglers in Minnesota would outnumber Muskies Inc members 199 to 1.

To put that into perspective out of TWO THOUSAND Minnesota anglers only 10 of them care enough about Muskies to come out of their pocket and buy a membership.

According to the Long Range Plan 30% of accessible lake acreage in Minnesota is managed for Muskies.

30% of accessible lake acreage in Minnesota for .5 Percent of anglers, and it still is not enough.

I personally would have no problem with that, if there were not so many muskie enthusiasts trying to ban everyone else from those same waters.

Just learn to share. There are plenty of public resources to go around. Especially for the .5 percent of people you represent.

[50inchpig]

Get real Merk, you're the pot calling the kettle black. Most musky anglers are not MI members and you know it, your numbers are invalidated by your assumptions.

Only differences between your club and my club is that we work WITH the DNR and don't have politicians in our pockets.

[Muskiefool]

Merk do you actually believe your own assumptions? do you think we all forgot last month LOL.

[merkman]

Should I not believe the Muskies Inc HSOforum?

Should I not believe the long range plan?

I am sorry for the assumption that all national members come from Minnesota, so set me straight, how many Muskies Inc members are there in Minnesota?

[merkman]

Only differences between your club and my club is that we work WITH the DNR and don't have politicians in our pockets.

Once again check the state HSOforum and listen in on some Game and fish committee testimony. Who is there? Shawn Kellet and John Underhill. Many times when the MDAA isn't even represented.

I can post some links if you don't believe me?

I would say both clubs are well represented at the state legislature.

Muskies Inc is a wonderful organization when it sticks to stocking fish and advancing muskie fishing. It turns ugly when the advancement of muskie fishing comes at the determent of other legal methods of enjoying our resources. There is enough room for us all out there. Don't jump on the ban wagon and take the easy way out. Find the ways that we can all get along and share our resources.

Please work with your fellow sportsmen, share our resources, rather than spreading hate, bans, and half truths.

[Dan L]

Merkman. Share the resource? Give me a break. I am not a muskie fisherman. The Darkhouse assosiation has opposed every effort to restore some pike populations. I admit we all take the blame for hammer handle pike populations. As a pike fisherman I feel it is essentially a ban on guys like me on thousands of lakes because most lakes are full of stunted pike. Why? The darkhouse association. I am not against spearing by any means. I am against a small group basically dictating how we manage the resouce. This is my view as a pike fisherman. I would hardly call the Darkhouse association as sharing the resouce. As a summer time pike fisrman I don't think asking for 100 lakes to enjoy fishing a healthy population of pike is asking to much. Not selfish at all. There are many who are not musky fisherman that feel the same way. Hopefully we will speak out more.

[merkman]

Recreational angling,

by comparison, removes an even greater proportion

of the larger-sized fish in a population.

It is no secret that look and release misidentification though darkhouse spearing and catch and release mortality both unintentionally kill northerns.

The MnDNR estimates a 2% misidentification rate using the darkhouse spearing identification method listed on their HSOforum.

The catch and release mortality rate is highly disputed but most will agree it is 2% or higher.

The key here is to quantify what the "even greater proportion of the larger-sized fish in a population" really is and how that applies to a slot limit lake.

Since we can agree that the unintentional kill rate of northerns is at least similar, and that same study that muskiefool quoted, states that catch rates between the two methods are similar. By looking at MnDNR licences purchases we can see that anglers outnumber darkhouse spearers 99 to 1.

So out of 1000 unintentionally killed northerns only 10 are killed by darkhouse spearers.

If you truly care about the fishery concentrate on the 990 unintentionally killed northerns though the catch and release method and stop trying to ban the legal method of darkhouse spearing.

The myth that darkhouse spearers are to blame is just that, a myth.

[merkman]

Dan L,

I just want to make it totally clear.

I don't speak for the Darkhouse Association, I am only one darkhouse spearing sportsman.

I also want to enjoy fishing a healthy population of pike responsibly though my method of fishing which happens to be a spear.

I also want the regs to be fair and impartial between darkhouse spearers and anglers. Right now the regs are not fair and impartial.

As you know a darkhouse spearer can angle though the same hole in the ice as they spear though. If a slot limit northern decides to hit the fishing line, swallows the hook, and is killed because of it, the fish is placed back in the hole and allowed to die, end of story. If that same sportsman, in the same house, fishing from the same hole with a spear, sees the slot limit northern, uses the method described on the MnDNR HSOforum (which can only allow 98% certainty), pulls up the speared northern, measures it and finds out that that fish was 1/4" over the lower slot limit, they need to call the conservation officer and face possible criminal charges.

This is not fair and impartial.

I like most other spearers want to be a part of the responsible management equation and have let the MnDNR know.

Darkhouse spearers have attended many public meetings asking for the current laws to be changed and the same type of response is always heard. The MnDNR can successfully manage our resources for the 1.4 million anglers, but there is absolutely no room for compromise when it comes to darkhouse spearers. I don't believe that. If we ask the MnDNR to manage their resource for an additional 1% increase in anglers they would love to have the opportunity. I bet they would love to have the chance to increase angling numbers by 10%. I know they would find a way to include these extra anglers in their management plans. Yet the darkhouse spearers who currently represent 1% of the anglers are still left out of the equation.

So yes I think we are both headed in the same direction, and yes I think there is room for both of us in the responsible management of this public resource.

[delcecchi]

Spearers are a small minority compared to those who angle for Northern Pike. Using membership numbers for MI is totally irrelevant and I can't understand why you would do it.

Data has been presented that showed spearers harvesting Northerns in numbers and size disproportionate to the number of spearers. Do you have any data that would contradict that assertion? Or do you think the blather about "fairness" and release mortality that you endlessly repeat is a substitute for data?

How do you feel about spearing Walleye? After all many Walleye are killed by anglers every year, why shouldn't spearers get their share? Is it because you believe Northerns are not worthy of protection from spearing? That they are more akin to Carp or Suckers in status than the noble walleye?

[mrklean]

i think we should all get 30/06s and go and start shooting everything we want. Is this really gonna turn into another line vs spear thread???

[fishhawk1750]

Is it going to? We are now on page 5

i think we should all get 30/06s and go and start shooting everything we want. Is this really gonna turn into another line vs spear thread???