Car through the ice - does insurance cover that?

[Splake]

Fish Head, thank you.

[paul pachowicz]

say that again. Your "Buddie" wants to drop his outfit thru the ice and make a claim????? Hmmmmm, I find this hard to believe you'd ask an abetting question like that in a forum that appears to be utilized by law abiding ethical bunch. Any questions on whay insurance rates are as they are???? I'm afraid I'd be lookin for another "buddie" to hang with. But, let's set scene. A guy drives around looking for a spot where his vehicle will break thru, it does and he can't get out. Or, he parks it out there and hopes it goes thru. Unsuspecting people are fishing near. Hmmmmmm...nice recipe for a tradic ending. "Oh what evil webs we weave", etc.

[Hafnutz]

So what would happen if you were a mile out and it went in the drink in this kind of weather. How would they get it out helicopter? Wait til next year? Would you have to pay a fine for each day it's in there? This could be a real mess..

[BehindtheHead]

my buddys truck went through last year. the dnr told him aslong as it was out in 5 days there would be no fine.

[fishersofmen]

What about an ATV that you have insurance on. Would that be covered if it went through? I'm assuming it would be.

[L_Cappo]

yes an atv is covered also.

[ozzie]

as long as there is comprehensive coverage it will be covered

[ozzie]

They got their money from their last ten years of premiums with no claim from you. I have a problem with getting your insurance jacked because you file a claim. Isn't that why you bought the insurance to begin with?

So when you have an accident and you injure someone and the insurance company has to pay out on your behalf and lets say you have 100/300/100 liabilty with a full coverage.....you have been with a company for 10 years and lets say $100 a month so for the last ten years $12,000 in premium the company collected. Now the person wins a liability suit and the courts award the victim $100,000 the max your policy would pay for one persons injuries from an accident you cause....plus the insurance company pays for your doctor bills up to state minimum of $20,000 medical and $20,000 non medical, plus you totaled your car and the othe persons vehicle so $9,000 on your and $6,000 on their car. So now the insurance company paid out on for your claim over $115,000 and only took in from you $12,000 in ten years.....and now they surcharge you and you have a problem with that? and the surcharge will only be on your policy for 3 years so they are not going to recoup the money they paid out for you maybe they will recoup another $2000 in the next three years but they will never get back to even on your policy as long as you live. So do you still think it is unfair to surcharge or raise your rates?

[Fish Head]

Well said Ozzie. Also, insurance rates are obviously determined to charge a higher rate for higher risks and lower rates for lower risks. I think we can all agree that that is fair.

All studies everywhere have all concluded that someone who has had a claim in the last 3 years if far more likely to have another one, than someone who has not had a claim in the last 3 years. Therefore from a risk perspective, someone with a claim should pay more for the next 3 years. It's just that simple.

Although someone may not like rates going up after a claim, it is more than fair.

[bturck]

Ozzie: Very well put. You are either an insurance agent or were bored to tears one night and opted to read you entire policy jacket. Either way you are right on.

The company that I represented until I retired to the good life last June now offers a policy that forgives not just one accident, but multiples. So no surcharge if you have a brain dead moment and in Ozzies example costs the company $115,000. I switched to it just in case a senior moment finds my head up you know what.

The other question regarding ATV's? Yes, full coverage covers them as well as autos, this also applies to sleds.

Several years ago one of my clients went through the ice on Clearwater lake. Iffy conditions late ice, the cost of the Sikorski helo and the divers was just over $5000; plus we totalled the truck. Still worth the price of the annual premium. Stay safe.

[jigginlow]

Originally Posted By: Sandmannd

They got their money from their last ten years of premiums with no claim from you. I have a problem with getting your insurance jacked because you file a claim. Isn't that why you bought the insurance to begin with?

So when you have an accident and you injure someone and the insurance company has to pay out on your behalf and lets say you have 100/300/100 liabilty with a full coverage.....you have been with a company for 10 years and lets say $100 a month so for the last ten years $12,000 in premium the company collected. Now the person wins a liability suit and the courts award the victim $100,000 the max your policy would pay for one persons injuries from an accident you cause....plus the insurance company pays for your doctor bills up to state minimum of $20,000 medical and $20,000 non medical, plus you totaled your car and the othe persons vehicle so $9,000 on your and $6,000 on their car. So now the insurance company paid out on for your claim over $115,000 and only took in from you $12,000 in ten years.....and now they surcharge you and you have a problem with that? and the surcharge will only be on your policy for 3 years so they are not going to recoup the money they paid out for you maybe they will recoup another $2000 in the next three years but they will never get back to even on your policy as long as you live. So do you still think it is unfair to surcharge or raise your rates?

I guess the way I see it, the insurance company is counting on collecting the loss from all of the other clients that they insure that didn't have the misfortune described. I don't think they ever expect to recover their loss from each individual policyholder event in the form of premium increases. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but on a one time occasion I don't agree that your policy should go up either-not drastically anyways. Rather, if there is a pattern of negligence, an adjustment should definitely be made. Just my .02.

[glenn57]

Originally Posted By: Sandmannd

They got their money from their last ten years of premiums with no claim from you. I have a problem with getting your insurance jacked because you file a claim. Isn't that why you bought the insurance to begin with?

So when you have an accident and you injure someone and the insurance company has to pay out on your behalf and lets say you have 100/300/100 liabilty with a full coverage.....you have been with a company for 10 years and lets say $100 a month so for the last ten years $12,000 in premium the company collected. Now the person wins a liability suit and the courts award the victim $100,000 the max your policy would pay for one persons injuries from an accident you cause....plus the insurance company pays for your doctor bills up to state minimum of $20,000 medical and $20,000 non medical, plus you totaled your car and the othe persons vehicle so $9,000 on your and $6,000 on their car. So now the insurance company paid out on for your claim over $115,000 and only took in from you $12,000 in ten years.....and now they surcharge you and you have a problem with that? and the surcharge will only be on your policy for 3 years so they are not going to recoup the money they paid out for you maybe they will recoup another $2000 in the next three years but they will never get back to even on your policy as long as you live. So do you still think it is unfair to surcharge or raise your rates?

i do have issues with insurance companies giving sizable BONUSES down in fancy florida hotels for threr "good work" thats my money there generously giving away. also was told by an ins agent minn law requires coverage if your vehicle goes thru.

[Flip37]

So you don't think businesses should give bonuses? They are after all just another business, in it to make money. If they didn't give good bonuses for sales jobs, nobody would want them. All sales jobs come with bonuses and perks, its part of sales.

[glenn57]

no i dont think they should get bonuses. what makes them better than the employees that work for the business that dont get a bonus???!!!

[TMF89]

On bonuses, maybe something does, but who knows

I completely see both sides of the story, but I gotta say insurance companies charging more to make up for the losses is [PoorWordUsage]. The reason you GOT insurance was so that in case something happened you'd be covered. Technically that's their job, not collecting money for no reason at the time. Also using Ozzie's example, it would only take nine other people for the insurance company to recoup its losses. Granted more than one person will have an accident, but I highly doubt more than one out of ten people total their car in ten years. Even if that's true, it's not set in stone, so eventually after a few "good" years, the company will make its money back.

[Fish Head]

First, lets be clear on what were talking about- As I said before, a car going through the ice is a comprehensive claim and most companies do not increase your rate for this, nor would you ever be cancelled for this. When we are talking about a rate increase for an auto claim, we are talking about an at-fault accident.

Second- It's not a matter of the company getting their money back. It's a matter of charging the appropriate rate for the risk.

As I mentioned before- statistically, someone who has had a recent claim is more likely to have another. There is no arguing that point, it just a fact. Therefore they should pay more. I’m sorry but it’s just that simple. It is justified. I have policies where your rate does not go up for an accident too, but you pay more for that type of policy.

Here is something I have heard from clients all the time over the last 25 years. “I have not had any claims so my rate should not go up? Increase the rates for the people who have had claims”. Now if I hear you right- you are saying that the person who is having claims should NOT pay more. Which way do you want it?

Also, keep in mind that if a company collects $100,000 in premium and pays out $100,000 in claims, they DID NOT break even. There is a cost of doing business. The break even combined loss ratio is typically around 70%. In this scenario, the company lost approximately $30,000.

[bturck]

fishhead, you are right on. I am just happy that after 23 years I was able to sell my agency and retire to do more fishing, and hopefully not drop my vehicle through the ice.

[fishersofmen]

There is a cost of doing buisness, but companies don't stay in buisness unless they make money. As far as insurance companies go, they are taking in ALOT more than they pay out. These big companies profit hundreds of millions of dollars, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just saying that overall they are more than breaking even.

[kkahmann]

'break even combined loss ratio"? 70% Is that the same thing as saying Insurance companies expect a 30% gross profit return?

My only problem with insurance is that you can't see it, touch it or smell it. It's an Idea!

[TonkaBass]

My biggest problem with insurance is they are crooks! Well sort of...

[Mainehazmt]

My biggest problem with insurance is they are crooks! Well sort of...

hmm till they save your butt?? Insurance is just in case just in case you do something stupid or someone else does Now if I only was able to keep my SGLI insurance ;(

[bturck]

this has turned out to be a pretty interesting thread considering the original question was "is my vehicle covered if it goes through the ice". Insurance is a very complex issue and insurance companies have to make money to cover losses. they also buy insurance from what are known as reinsurance companies. katrina for example costs the companies involved billions of dollars. no company regardless of their size could have convered these losses by themselves. Hurricane Andrew in the 80's bankrupted several small companies and also bankrupted the insurance gurantee program in the State of Florida. In Minnesota all companies pay into the Gurantee program which gurantees your claim will be covered up to $300,000 by the State in the event a major catastphore occurrs or your carrier goes belly up. This gurante covers, auto, property and life policies. Companies are also regulated by the Commerce Dept and cannot make changes to policies of their own free will. They have to provide information relative to any premium increases or coverage issues and obtain their approval. You may have noticed in some of your past renewal letters that changes in wording may have occurred and the company is required to notify you of that change. That change was approved, or if it involes a deletion, by the Insurance Commissioners office. The complexity of this industry is far reaching, not saying that insurance companies don't do some stupid things, but it goes far beyond send my premium in monthly.

[nofishfisherman]

I think reading this thread counts as being work related for me since I also work for an insurance company. Specifically I work within the department that sets rates.

Like what bturck said the complexity would astound many of you non insurance folk. If you knew half of what goes on behind the scenes you would quickly realize insurance is not a scam. You would also be surprised at the regulations regarding rates and how we can and can not rate a risk. Each and every time we want to increase rates in a particular state we need to submit a filing and have in approved by that states DOI (Dept. of Insurance).

Trust me, you the consumer are being watched out for.

The name of the game is correctly pricing the risk. We use a number of factors that have been proven to determine what kind a risk someone is. Gender, age, marital status, homeowner, credit score, driving history, make/model of car, engine size, safety features, etc... At the end of the calculations we are relatively certain we know what kind of risk you are, by that I mean we have an idea of how likely you are to be in an accident and what that accident would likely cost us. We price your policy accordingly. If you don't like your rates going up then don't do anything that will increase your risk factors.

If anything instead of hating the insurance companies I suggest turning your anger towards those commiting insurance fruad and those people out there that do not have auto insurance. Your rates are significantly higher simply becuase of those people.

You would enjoy a fairly sizeable reduction in premium if fraud and uninsured motorists were no longer an issue.

In reality no one can aruge with the benefits of insurance, having it can save you from catastrophic financial hardships. But I realize its in peoples nature to complain when the price goes up no matter what product we are talking about. Atleast with insurance you can see exactly why you are being charged a particular price.

[nofishfisherman]

'break even combined loss ratio"? 70% Is that the same thing as saying Insurance companies expect a 30% gross profit return?

My only problem with insurance is that you can't see it, touch it or smell it. It's an Idea!

What he is saying is that if we take in 100% of the premium roughly 70% of that goes right back out the door to pay claims.

The other 30% then goes to paying overhead. (Office, salaries, benefits, vendors, etc...) Whatever is left over is your profit. Usually its roughly 3-5% depending on the company. Now thats just in premium dollars, there is also investment income to be figured in but with the current markets most companies are seeing their investment income has now become investment write offs.

In reality most insurance companies are operating on very tight margins.

[fishersofmen]

The credit score thing really bothers me. I don't have a single ticket in over 5 years and not one accident claim. I have always paid my insurance on time. Last year I got my renewal and my rates went up after I had some financial problems. I was very upset and called my agent and he just said thats how they do things now. Completely unfair in my oppinion. Its a good example of kicking a guy while he is down. Even though my relationship with them has been stellar, they had to stick their nose in my buisness and look at my relations with others. They should have left it alone.

nofish come on, tight margins. ALL of the big insurance companies that most of us use are profiting hundreds of millions. That is no secret.