Joe Mauer a lot of little problems

[croixflats]

Quote:

Twins way overpaid for the next contract

There is nobody in the leauge that deserves that kind of money. Notta one!!!!!

[jwmiller33]

Lets face it, if he wasn't from St. Paul, he would just be another really, really good catcher.. that's it. Twins way overpaid for the next contract IMHO. Hope I'm wrong.

[jwmiller33]

on a side note, mauer completely duffed that attempted throw out of david wright while he was stealing 2nd. never seen him error that badly on a throw to 2nd base before. i must say, glad it happens in the all star game rather than the regular season!

[mrklean]

if he was batting 330 right now and the twins were in first this thread would still be dead. The guy is still the best catcher in baseball.

[jwmiller33]

haha Mrklean, you are so right. i like how people start to doubt him when he is "only" batting .293! He has more hits andextra base hits than any other catcher in baseball and has the 2nd best batting average out of all catchers in the bigs. In my fantasy baseball league, he is [still] the highest scoring catcher so far this season, and he is having an off season compared to last year. I would gladly take Mauers numbers at any position on our team except for first because Morneau is the one chasing the batting title this year.

[Big Dave2]

You guys keep comparing Mauer with other catchers. After this year he will no longer be paid like other catchers he will be paid like the best hitters in the game such as A-Rod. Mauer will be making about the same or actually a little more than A-rod made per year from 2001 through 2007. Mauers production at the plate although it is very good, can not hold a candle to A-Rods over all production for those years. Derek Jeter has yet to make what Mauer will make next year.

Just because Mauer hits for a high average does not mean that his over all production is much higher than other players on the team since he sits out a large number of games per year due to the defensive position that he plays. Last year, even though Mauer may have won a batting title he only had 29 more hits than Cuddyer and 11 more hits than Span. Thats hardly worth more than double the salary.

I would also like to see some defensive statistics to back up the claim that he is one of the best defensive catchers in the league. I am sure that he is as good as most defensively but I have never seen anything to make me believe that he is elite. And as far as how well he handles pitchers, who could possibly know. Seems like the Twins pitchers go through thier rough patches like anyone else.

I also don't see Mauers high salary as an advantage in atracting top tier free-agents either. If anything it will be a hinderance because these guys want to get paid as well and there will be no money left to pay them with. I didn't hear Cliff Lee lobying to be traded to Minnesota so he could play with the baby Jesus.

[jwmiller33]

We are comparing Mauer to other catchers because he is a catcher. Regardless of how much he makes, you have to look at the value he brings to the table for his team considering the position he plays. If we had Drew Butera playing instead of Mauer right now, you would be respecting Mauers .294 average a lot more after seeing Butera's .174 average. The fact of the matter is, he is the best player at his position in the majors and is getting compensated so. You think if he didn't resign with us, whoever he eventually did sign with was going to pay him less??? I highly, highly doubt it.

If you keep forgetting that Mauer is a catcher, you are automatically losing some of his value right there. You say Mauer only had 11 more hits than Span and 29 more than Cuddy? Well, that may be true but your comparing apples to oranges in that aspect (outfields to catchers). To make my argument more clear, lets take a look at VORP (value over replacement player) to see Mauer's true value in run support that you suggest he lacks. VORP is a stat designed to show how much a hitter contributes offensively in comparison to a fictitious replacement player. This replacement player performs at replacement level, which for a team is considered freely available talent, either by trade, calling up from farm teams or free agent signing. In 2009 when Mauer came one vote short of becoming the 10th player to ever be named the unanimous MVP, he LED THE LEAGUE IN VORP, producing an astonishing 91 runs more than a replacement level catcher, despite sitting out with an injury for the first month of the season. Not only did he have a VORP of 91, he blew the rest of the league out of the water. The next highest VORP was Jeter, with 73, and after that, there was nobody within 30 runs. Likewise, even with sitting out the first month of the season with an injury, he logged 939 innings behind the plate in 2009 in just 5 months which was 5th in the entire league!

BigDave, you question Mauers actual defense ability behind the plate? Hmmm, that's going to be hard to prove for my argument. Oh wait, what are those awards given to the best player defensively at his position in the entire league? Oh ya, gold gloves. Mauer won his second straight last season. They don't give those out just to the "popular kids", those are awards you have to EARN in the eyes of people who surely know a lot more about what they are voting on than you and me.

Moreover, prior to 2006, there wasn't a single catcher in the 100 year history of the AL to win a batting title. Thats an entire century of never having a catcher hit well enough to win the batting title. That is, until Joe Mauer came into the league. Since then, he has won three of the last four batting titles which is just jaw dropping absurd!!!! Also, last year his batting average set an ALL TIME RECORD for catchers.

In addition, the ERA of Twin's pitchers when Mauer behind the plate is 3.98 in his aggregate seven seasons with the Twins. In comparison, the MLB average over that same time frame is 4.37. To put in Layman's terms, when Joe is catching, the ERA of the pitcher pitching to him is 10% lower than the MLB average.

Also, Mauer has an arm for throwing out baserunners. Over his 7 year career, his CS% for baserunners trying to steal is 36%, compared to a league average of 27%. That is a huge difference because that runner stealing is advancing into scoring position if the catcher does not make that out, so that means Joe eliminates 10% more RISP than the average MLB catcher does, which is reflected in the previous ERA stat.

Like I said before, Mauer adds a lot of run production to our team, even tho you may think he doesn't. Last years VORP of 91 speaks for itself, and Jeter in a close (enter sarcasm) second with a VORP of 73. Not to mention no other player was within 30 runs after that. That just goes to show how valuable Mauer is to our team, being that if he was injured all of last year, and we had Jose or Drew behind the plate instead, we would have not even been close to contending for the division title. Not only is he an amazing player offensively, but defensively as well. He is extremely beneficial to our young pitchers, helping minimize the damage they get themselves into some times.

And I didn't say Mauer's "high salary" is going to attract top tier free agents. I said having Mauer HERE will attract those free agents, along with his buddy over at first, Justin MorYES (Mcdonalds commercial on KFAN). No money left to pay them you say? Ya right. The Pohlads are one of the richest families in all professional sports. Before Carl Pohlad passed away a few years ago, he was ranked by Forbes as the 114th richest man in the country, as well as being the wealthiest baseball owner on the list. Pohlad's net worth of $3.1 billion was nearly three times that of the Yankees Steinbrenner of $1.3 billion at the time. Just because the Twins signed a huge contract with Mauer doesn't mean our franchise and owners bank accounts are drying up. Look at the payroll of the Yankees and the players they are able to afford, and the late Steinbrenner was worth almost 1/3 of what Pohlad was worth.

Even more, in 1997 the MLB adopted the "revenue sharing" system that requires successful teams to pay millions of dollars each year to the unsuccessful teams, for ex (the Yankees taking money they earned and "sharing" it with the Twins for ex). You ever hear the big bone Steinbrenner had to pick with the Pohlads???? Pohlad was POCKETING the money and Steinbrenner was ticked off at him for not putting the money back into the franchise, rightfully so. The Pohlad's are just more concerned about padding their pockets, rather then building the best team possible like Steinbrenner did for his Yanks. Everyone hates the Yanks, but you have to applaud Steinbrenner for his will and determination to win. I can only wonder how different things would be if the Pohlad's had that same will and determination to win as Steinbrenner.

And about Cliff Lee. He was under contract and did not have a no trade clause to waive, so he had absolutely no say in who he got traded to. Just because you "didn't hear" him lobbying to come to the Twin's doesnt mean he wouldn't rather play for the Twins than the Rangers. Heck, I didn't hear one word from Lee about who he wanted to play for, so jumping to conclusions about where he wanted to go by things he didnt say is ridiculous. If he was a free agent and decided to go to Texas instead of MN, than thats a different story. If the Twins knew what was best for them, they would make a serious run at Cliff Lee in his free agency after this year is up.

BigDave, so basically what your saying is that high caliber free agents aren't going to want to come to MN because Mauer is making a ton of [well deserved] money??? Maybe free agents are looking at Mauers new deal and thinking to themselves, "dang, the Twins finally dished out some big money for a great player, maybe they are finally serious about making a serious run at a title.... maybe I'll go check out target field with the M&M boys"...

i'm obviously exhageratting here in that last statement but I think we should be much more worried about the $10 million we are paying Cuddy this year to hit .260 as our number 5 hitter (with a VORP of 6). Which means we could have 10 million more dollars this year if Cuddyer wasn't under contract with us and his value we would be missing is 6 runs. And I have a strong feeling that we have bats on our bench right now (Kubel and Thome) that could be put into the lineup more often if Cuddyer was gone.

/rant

[jwmiller33]

one thing i also want to note; Morneau is #3 in the MLB so far this year in VORP (value over replacement player) with 46.1 runs. He behind Josh Hamilton (47.8) and Miguel Cabrera (47.4).

Also, if you think we overspent on Mauer for a player who has a VORP of 91, maybe you should look around to other roster spots we are sinking millions of dollars into. Nick Punto for example, is making $4 MILLION this year and has a NEGATIVE VORP of -0.6

. Thus, in a perfect world, we could be saving ourselves millions of dollars this year if we didnt have Punto on contract, and our team would actually be better off offensively by replacing him with a "replacement level player"

[bassNspear]

its all about the money, and it will always be about the money

[Big Dave2]

The fact that Mauer is a catcher should diminish his value not raise it. He plays at least 15 to 20 less games than any other star player. Just because he is the best catcher in the league does not mean that he is the best player in the league.

[Big Dave2]

Critics of VORP take issue with where the formula's arbitrary "replacement level" is set.[citation needed] Many equations and methods exist for finding the replacement level, but most will set the level somewhere around 80% of the league average, in terms of runs per out.[citation needed] There are two exceptions to this, though: catchers, who shoulder a larger defensive responsibility than any other player in the lineup (and are therefore more scarce), have a replacement level at 75% of the league average. At the other end of the defensive spectrum, first basemen and designated hitters must produce at a level above 85% of the average to be considered better than "replacement level," since defense is not a big consideration at either position (it is not a consideration at all for the DH).

VORP = another worthless stat created by someone with way too much time on thier hands. Comparing live players to fictitious ones? You have to be kidding me!!!!

[Big Dave2]

The thought of playing with Mauer and Moryes may be somewhat attractive to a few free agents but if there is no money left in the payroll budget to pay them what difference does it make?

It makes absolutely NO difference what the owners of a sports frnchise are worth when it comes to payroll spending. Sports franchises are businesses just like the business you probably work for. Every business strives to make money so out of the revenue the business creates it seta a budget for payroll. They will not go significantly over this payroll budget no matter how much the owners are worth.

[Coach1310]

VORP = another worthless stat created by someone with way too much time on thier hands. Comparing live players to fictitious ones? You have to be kidding me!!!!

I understand what you are saying, but can you please produce some stats that show how Mauer is SO OVERPAID compared to the other stars in baseball?? ... the VORP is used because it provides SOME insight into what a players true value is in a form that is easily understandable. With so many variables, it just summarizes it a bit.

[Big Dave2]

I understand what you are saying, but can you please produce some stats that show how Mauer is SO OVERPAID compared to the other stars in baseball??

All you have to do is take a look at A-Rods offensive stats. Mauer is not even in the same league as him but will be paid on a par with the best players in baseball not just the best catchers.

[jwmiller33]

Critics of VORP take issue with where the formula's arbitrary "replacement level" is set.[citation needed] Many equations and methods exist for finding the replacement level, but most will set the level somewhere around 80% of the league average, in terms of runs per out.[citation needed] There are two exceptions to this, though: catchers, who shoulder a larger defensive responsibility than any other player in the lineup (and are therefore more scarce), have a replacement level at 75% of the league average. At the other end of the defensive spectrum, first basemen and designated hitters must produce at a level above 85% of the average to be considered better than "replacement level," since defense is not a big consideration at either position (it is not a consideration at all for the DH).

VORP = another worthless stat created by someone with way too much time on thier hands. Comparing live players to fictitious ones? You have to be kidding me!!!!

so you just looked up VORP and copy and pasted some rebuttal? but "most will set an average at 75% of the league average". well i guess thats "most" (according to your research) but the HSOforum i used for statistics used the league average for the position as the value derived in the equation. a lot of people look at complicated baseball stats and dismiss their relevancy simply because they do not understand them.

Yes A-Rod gets paid a ton of money and contributes a ton offensively, BUT he is a THIRDBASEMAN!!!!! It is common knowledge that thirdbase is a power hitting position, very similar to firstbaseman in that respect, and they are expected to hit for high average. Ever since the beginning of the live ball era, thirdbaseman have been POWER HITTERS, and that level of production is EXPECTED from someone at that position. Catchers on the other hand are notoriously the worst hitters on the team, and you are lucky if you can find a catcher that will ever hit above 280 for an entire season, let alone 323 for their entire career. you are simply missing the point here, in trying to compare power and run figures of a thirdbaseman to a catcher. That is wrong, you are trying to compare apples to oranges man and I don't think you get that. Mauer is a CATCHER and you have to understand that in order to derive his full value. Mauer has been in the league for 7 years, A Rod for 17 seasons, and Mauer already has won the same number of gold gloves as A Rod, as well as having THREE MORE BATTING TITLES, something A Rod has never been able to accomplish. Perhaps you are forgetting that A Rod has been in the league for 10 years longer than Mauer has. Thru A Rods first 7 years, he averaged .309, whereas Mauer over his first 7 years has averaged .323.

I think comparing a player who has admittedly took steroids throughout the course of his career to a clean player is again, comparing apples to oranges. Obviously a juicing thirdbaseman is going to have much better power numbers than a clean catcher.

I'd hate to be your kid on a little league team. Nothing is ever good enough for you. The guy is a catcher and has been consistently one of the best pure hitters in the game since he started in the majors, and has been without a doubt the best catcher over that same time period. You keep trying to compare his to A-Rod, who plays a power hitting and high average position. Thats like trying to compare stats of a tight end and a running back in football.

[jwmiller33]

All you have to do is take a look at A-Rods offensive stats. Mauer is not even in the same league as him but will be paid on a par with the best players in baseball not just the best catchers.

Ya, they aren't even in the same "league" because the positions they play are as far apart in power and run production expectations as can be.

You still haven't been able to produce an argument against his defensive abilities.... How about you produce an argument with another catcher who is a two time gold glove, three time batting champ, and MVP?????

You asked for me to produce some physical "stats" to prove my argument, which I did, and then you dismiss them because you don't think they are a good stat... Baseball statiticians around the world would beg to differ. Guys who spend their lives working for major league ballclubs studying these exact same statistics seem to find them useful. You probably never heard of VORP before my post when you went and looked it up.

I would like YOU to post and produce some physical/actual STATS that PROVE your argument of Mauer being "not that good". I'm waiting for you to produce these stats.

[blue_healer_guy]

very interesting debate here with stats and positions and all that. My personal view on Mauer doesnt factor in what position he plays. He will be paid 184 million as a player, so my view is he has to produce and produce big time or he is overpaid. I think we all think the 28 he put up last year is his top end, but he's gotta do 25 and 120 plus hit 325-345 for me to say that contract was worth it.

[jwmiller33]

Also, looking at a few more stats that you will probably deem useless and misguided...

WAR, or wins above replacement player for position players is a metrix that gives a single number that represents the number of wins the player added to the team compared to a replacement player. A good example of this replacement player as given by this matrix is think "AAAA" (step above AAA) meaning a player that is an average player in the MLB. A general scale as given by this stat is 8+=MVP quality, 5+=All Star Quality, 2+ Starter, 0-2 Reserve/Replacement player. In 2009, Mauer's WAR was 7.9, which was the highest in the entire league!!!! Similarily, in 2008, his WAR was 8.7, again the highest in the entire league. In 2006, his WAR was 7.0, or second in the entire league. In that respect, for the last 3 years he has added more wins to his team than anyone else in the league.

Likewise, Mauers On base percentage for 2009 was .444, again the highest in the entire league. The year before that, is was .413 which was the second highest in the entire league. And in 2007, is was .429 which as third in the entire league. Not too shabby for a catcher. He also has the 7th highest on base % out of all active players at .404, which ranks him at #48 in the entire history of the professional baseball. That puts him in some company with some guys by the name of Dimmagio, Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Pujols, Mantle, Boggs and Morgan, just to name a few. Again, not too shabby for a measly catcher.

Continuing with more "meaningless" stats, Mauers slugging % in 2009 was the highest in the entire league, again. (I feel like I keep repeating myself with "highest in the entire league"... hmmm). His career .477 slugging % ranks him 50th among all active players and 195th all time. Again, for a catcher, I'd like that guy on my team.

In 2009, he was also 7th in the entire league on total bases which seems pretty amazing considering, as you pointed out Dave, he "missed so much time" because he is a catcher and they take way too much time off. If he can still sit out once every week or two and still be in the top 10 in the league in TOTAL BASES, THAT is saying something.

Moreover, Runs Created is a stat created by Bill James that estimates the number of runs a hitter contributes to his team. A very very simplified analysis is that it takes into account three factors; (1) on base factor, (2) advancement factor, and (3) opportunity factor. It basically takes into account hits, SB, RBIs, HRs, BBs, singles, doubles, triples, etc. Last year, Mauers RC was 138, again, highest in the entire league.

Win Probability added is a stat, given average MLB teams, the change in probability caused by this batter during the game. A change of +/- 1 would indicate one win added or lost. In 2008, Mauer led the entire league with a WPA of 4.7. The next season, he was 5th in the entire league with a WPA of 3.7. Among all active players, he is ranked 40th, and that is very impressive seeing how almost everyone on the list ahead of him has been playing pro ball MUCH longer than he has.

On the other side of the ball, his defensive abilities are matched by hardly anyone. Two out of the last three years he has had the highest fielding % as a C in the entire league. That other year, he was 3rd. In addition, he is THIRD ALL TIME in the history of the game with a fielding % of .996. That means out of 1000 defensive fielding plays, he converts 996 of them. Thats pretty darn good if it is 3rd all time for all catchers. He is also already 20th all time of the number of games played at the catcher position, and he has only played in 5 full seasons thus far.

The past two years he has also led the entire league in offensive win %, which is a stat used to display the winning percentage of a team with nine of this player batting, Assuming average pitching and defense. That is highest in the entire league, again, for the past two years.

So everytime when I said, "highest in the league", that means he was higher than your boy A Rod. Just because A Rod has more RBI's and HR's than Mauer doesn't mean squat, especially since he is an admitted juicer playing at a power hitting position.

[jwmiller33]

Here is a great article from famous Twins blogger Aaron Gleeman when we signed Mauer to his contract. He makes some great arguments, the same ones I was making

Quote:

Months of speculation, assumptions, rumors, false reports, and anxiety finally came to an end yesterday afternoon when the Twins immediately overshadowed news of Joe Nathan officially opting for Tommy John surgery by signing Joe Mauer to an eight-year, $184 million contract extension that includes full no-trade protection and will keep the reigning AL MVP in Minnesota through his age-35 season in 2018.

Target Field was built to give Minnesotans the pleasure of outdoor baseball after decades in the Metrodome, but also to increase revenue enough to support a competitive payroll capable of retaining star players nearing free agency. As a 27-year-old homegrown former No. 1 overall pick coming off an MVP season Mauer fits that bill as well as any player ever will, which is why the decision was a no-brainer for the Twins despite the incredible amount of risk involved.

A list of the largest contracts in MLB history shows that long-term deals exceeding $100 million tend to work out well for the team far less than most people seem to think. For every Albert Pujols or Manny Ramirez deal that proved favorable for the team there are several massive deals that proved unfavorable to varying degrees: Barry Zito, Mike Hampton, Vernon Wells, Alfonso Soriano, Ken Griffey Jr., Kevin Brown, Todd Helton, Jason Giambi.

Some of those were full-blown busts, some were a mixed bag where ultimately the player was paid significantly more than he was worth, and some simply saw the team overpay for a good player, as the "bad" pretty clearly outnumber the "good" even though in nearly every case the team and its fans were thrilled at the time of the signing. In other words, if given a chance to go back in time more often than not teams would opt against handing out a $100 million deal.

None of which means the Twins will regret this deal, just that committing that much up-front money over that many guaranteed years to even the very best players leaves all kinds of room for things to go wrong. Mauer is both younger and better than most of the guys to crack $100 million, but while those are key distinctions they're also offset somewhat by the fact that he plays a notoriously taxing position and has already experienced several major injuries.

All of which is mostly just a long way of saying $184 million is an awful lot of money, no matter the circumstances. However, in this case the player isn't merely great, he's truly elite, right in the middle of his prime, and clearly on an inner-circle Hall of Fame path. In five full seasons as a big leaguer Mauer has won one MVP and had a compelling case for two others while never playing at less than an All-Star level.

According to Fan Graphs' player valuation system he was worth an average of $22 million over that five-year span, including $26 million in 2008 and $37 million last season, so based on his established track record of performance $23 million per year seems about right. That figure is also in line with the most recent $100 million-plus contract given to a hitter, which is the nearly identical eight-year, $180 million deal Mark Teixeira signed with the Yankees last offseason.

Teixeira signed that contract as a 29-year-old first baseman and .290/.378/.541 career hitter with an adjusted OPS+ of 134. Mauer is a 27-year-old catcher and .327/.408/.483 career hitter with an adjusted OPS+ of 136. Mauer is two years younger with superior defensive value and every bit as strong offensively even before factoring in the huge hitting disparity between first basemen and catchers (showing his value even if a position change is needed down the line).

Now, obviously it's a lot easier and less risky for the Yankees to throw around $180 million and there's actually a legitimate argument to be made for not committing that much money to any player, but in terms of his established level of performance and the going rate for elite hitters Mauer's deal is right around fair market value and perhaps even represents a bit of a discount if there can be such a thing at $184 million.

Beyond that, for any talk of Mauer's contract being so big that it could hinder the Twins' ability to maintain a quality roster around him it's important to note that their payroll has been in the $70 million range in recent years. Moving to Target Field has allowed them to push the payroll to around $100 million for 2010 and presumably the near future, in which case the $23 million devoted to Mauer will still leave more money to spend than they had in any previous season.

History says there's a high likelihood of the Twins living to regret Mauer's deal, but that would be true at $124 million or $184 million because once you get into that stratosphere remaining healthy and similarly productive is a must for the pact to work out. Whether that's a sound risk is certainly debatable, particularly for the Twins, but if anyone is worth their taking on the risks associated with a $184 million contract Mauer would seem to be the guy on and off the field.

If nothing else, the folks in Cooperstown can now start engraving a Twins hat on his plaque.

[Coach1310]

All you have to do is take a look at A-Rods offensive stats. Mauer is not even in the same league as him but will be paid on a par with the best players in baseball not just the best catchers.

Dave.... you can't use his position to justify one point, then totally discard it to justify another.... your bottom line is that The top 5 paid players in baseball, better be the top 5 producers in offensive stats....

Maybe players should get separate contracts??? one for their offensive production and one for the defensive production..... that would make it a lot easier!!

[jwmiller33]

The thought of playing with Mauer and Moryes may be somewhat attractive to a few free agents but if there is no money left in the payroll budget to pay them what difference does it make?

It makes absolutely NO difference what the owners of a sports frnchise are worth when it comes to payroll spending. Sports franchises are businesses just like the business you probably work for. Every business strives to make money so out of the revenue the business creates it seta a budget for payroll. They will not go significantly over this payroll budget no matter how much the owners are worth.

yes you are completely correct, sports franchises are businesses. however you are wrong on the rest of your analysis. just like any other businesses, owners of the business can invest as much of their own money into their business as they want. did you ever read up on the bone steinbrenner had to pick with the pohlads after the MLB adopted the revenue sharing agreement in 97??? Steinbrenner was ticked off cuz Pohlad was dumping the money straight into his own bank accounts rather than re investing it into the franchise. Just like that, it works the other way too. Not only can the Pohlads put those extra profits into their bank account, they can take money from their bank account and invest it into the franchise, whether it be for a new stadium, new players, etc. So YES, the more money a franchise owner has, the more money he can potentially invest into his business at his own will. I really don't see how you can argue against that? How can a business owner be deprived from investing more of his own money into his business? The late Steinbrenner was worth 1/3 what the late Pohlad was worth and look at the amount of money Steinbrenner dumped into the Yanks. Like I said, even tho most people hate the Yanks and what they stand for, you have to applaud his will and determination to win world championships. He understood that in order to have the best chance to win those championships, you need to surround your team with the best talent you can find.

and lastly, Mauer is going to get paid just like every other MVP/3 time batting champ/3 time silver slugger/2 time gold glove catcher in the big leagues. (Enter sarcasm)

[genegodawa]

Sorry I can't spend the time to read all JWM's posts. I'm sure they are insightful and meaningful.

Oversimplifying things, I gotta agree with Coach's idea though.

[Big Dave2]

Man-crush?

[jwmiller33]

hahaha i will take that as a victory in this debate. no man crush here. just hate to see one of our best players get trash talked, when he could have ultimately pulled a lebron instead of resigning with us, in which case, im sure you would have been bashing him for that

and i cant stand it when people can't back up their arguments

[Coach1310]

hahaha i will take that as a victory in this debate. no man crush here. just hate to see one of our best players get trash talked, when he could have ultimately pulled a lebron instead of resigning with us, in which case, im sure you would have been bashing him for that

and i cant stand it when people can't back up their arguments

I'm with you there 100% jwmiller33!!