Lets talk about genes in deer.

[honker23]

Finally someone made some solid points on this genetic stuff. Thanks to the original post. Unless I owned a fenced in ranch, where I knew all deer by name, I don't think "culling" a small buck is going to do much for the herd. Going back to the doe thing, 20 "bad" does get bred and one buck gets "culled" not making a huge difference. Balance the buck to doe ratio and I think you'll more bang for your buck.

Another to think about. If you want some meat and want to take doe to help trim the herd, take a young doe. It will be more tender and you'll save her from breeding for 5 more years. If you take an old doe, she may not even be able to produce next year and she'll be tougher on the table.

[vister]

just like quack addicts pics show, antlers typically grow the same way from year to year. each year they add more and last years get longer and/or points off of them. with more and more people using trail cameras nowadays, i'd bet we will start seeing lots of pics like that.

pics of the one that got away, and again, and again. antlers are the fingerprints of a deer. they just get bigger with age. like mentioned, there is veining in the antlers that is the same from one year to the next. if a buck is a mainframe 9, 4 on one side and 5 on the other, chances are next year he'll still be odd numbered antler, just longer and maybe a mainframe 11. antlers do tend to grow similar year to year, despite what many think.

[slimngrizzly]

YOU MEAN THEY LOOSE THEIR HORNS EVERY YEAR???

I THOUGHT A 10 POINT BUCK WAS 10 YEARS OLD!?!?!

[slopmaster]

I will admit around my area almost everyone just shoots a deer for meat. To them a basket rack is meat a doe is meat so if the little buck walks by he is a goner and i was the same way my first 7 years of hunting. The only thing that sucks is were i live they give out 24 doe tags for the whole county during slug season. So what do the rest/magority of the people who dont get a doe tag shoot? Little 1 1/2 year old bucks casue they want to be able to enjoy venision for the next year. I wish they handed out more doe tags but how on earth do you convince the other hundreds of hunters to not shoot a 1 1/2? I bow hunted and shot a doe 2nd weekend casue with my classes this year i dont have much time figured i would be just as happy with a doe then as a 1 1/2 old buck. next year i plan on hunting for a buck and i wont shoot a 1 1/2 and depending on what we get on the trail camera i will hold off for the biggest one we see. I would love a 130 class deer and im going to hunt hard for one. But honestly im wondering with only handing out 20 some doe tags for a whole county how do you grow big bucks when people like eating that o so wonderful venision

[96trigger]

Slop, I don't think you are in an area tha can really be managed successfully for big bucks rigth now. The DNR will continue to manage based on population, when the population is more sustainable, and everyone can get a doe more easily, then maybe you can get people to start thinking about passing on small bucks. Until then, I am afraid that there will be too many hunters who just want to shoot a deer, I would be one of them. You are going to have to give the population time to grow, then maybe everyone can get a little piece of the pie. Handing out a limited number of doe tags is how the population gets established or reestablished.

[slopmaster]

Thanks for the post back 96,

I do understand and im not bashing on the DNR for what there doing either, if they think that will help which im sure it will im more than happy to wait a few years. My family has shot 3 deer this year 2 being basketracks but hey the smiles on the faces of last saturday when we got those 2 small bucks was great i even got to take my mom and girlfriend out on stand for the night and we ended up filling my mothers tag it was a great moment for me! and when im filling my face full of nice tender venison i sure wont be complaining either.

sorry for getting off subject a little i look forward to reading what anyone else has to say about genetics great post!

[B. Amish]

This is one topic about whitetails that always catches my eye. I've read a ton on this and have sided heavily with the argument that culling bucks for genetics does nothing for the herd if they are free ranging.

HOWEVER, when people start saying they are in favor of antler point restrictions for management purposes, I cringe. Antler point restrictions do more harm than good in my opinion. Let's say the restriction is more than six points is legal. So you have two bucks, and both are 1.5 year olds. One is a stud 10 and the other is a fork. The ten is legal and the fork is not. Which one is more likely to be a freakishly large buck if given the time?

Antler point restrictions sway the population to inferior quality deer.

[Mark Christianson]

I'd say lets not get into antler point restriction discussions.

In MN, thats not even in the realm of possibilities today.

So why get wrapped around the axle on it?

If you want to get into that discussion, get a new post going. This post is to get info to people regarding genes and what they might expect.

[B. Amish]

Geesh, sorry.

But, it is happening in MN in several state parks. So, it is in the realm of possibilities. And, I think that the two topics are very much related.

[Mark Christianson]

It wasnt meant as a bash at all. Sorry about that.

too many times topics get so intertwined, and the original topic gets completely lost.

I see what you mean about them being related I guess.

[slimngrizzly]

I think B. Amish brings a very good point. Although I am all about QDM and the state moving in that direction.... antler restrictions are not the way!

Antler restrictions promote age yes... but they protect the deer with the least genetic potential. Most people see a basket 10 and the fork and think the 10 is 2 1/2 and the fork is 1 1/2, when usually its genes or fawning date thats responsible for the difference in body in antler size. They are both 1 1/2 and both just as stupid!

Mandated Antler restrictions could take a toll on the wild herd! I guess to me, I would see it as a step in the right direction, but for sure the wrong step!?!?!

The state should make it the law to shoot 3 1/2 year old deer with under 6 points!

[96trigger]

Slim, I never new you were all about QDM, I'm really surprised. I thought you just shot everything.

[Musky Buck]

Yo Vister, I hear you loud and clear, I hunt the Wadena/New york Mills area, in our area of the state we do have tremendous genetics, take that swath from Bertha to Henning to Perham to Wadena and you are in great deer dountry with fast growing racks. I hear so much about spike bucks and since 1983 have never seen one on the hoof. I would assume I've put my scope on over 100 antlered bucks, taken 24 of them, the rest for the most part were 1 1/2 year olds. Vister, the Bertha area kicks out monsters every year, there have been some dandy boone and crockett animals taken in that stretch even the 2005 state record by muzzloader, leave the young bucks alone and we'll increase the buck size for a lot of people, problem is a lot of hunters hunt that 9 day season and not year round with planning scouting scheming etc. It's more of an event like going to a viking's game than it is being a true hunter, so they'll get trigger happy and take what they can, unless a rookie, that little buck after a few days loses it's novelty and is swept under the rug until next year, in my eyes a mature doe is way smarter than a 1 1/2 year old buck, they roam a lot more because they don't feel comfortable in a bigger bucks home base, final point if these inferior bucks are breeding so many does where do all the nice bucks keep coming from ? These inferior bucks can produce the next beast because they get shot long before they have a chance to become a trophy. I think all of you would be stunned if the deer hunters really showed off what they are shooting, I can only speak for my family and hunting groups around that I'm familiar with, but Ottertail county produces tons of trophy bucks, just the local regulars don't announce it. Good luck hunting !

[96trigger]

Musky Buck, you are lying, there aren't any big bucks in Minnesota. They are only in Wisconsin and Iowa, and Illinoise. Funny, though, I see some real bruiser's bow hunting, but never manage to see any gun hunting? Why is that? I'll tell you why, they are SMART. They are not going to jump out at the first blob of orange and say "here I am" I see them bowhunting because I put in the time. They just know when the bullets are getting chambered and they move into the deepest darkest parts of He11, if you want one, you gotta be willing to go there to get it, not many are.

[Musky Buck]

Yo trigger that's exactly how i took my 14 pointer, hip boots got me in and a ton of sweat got me out. I think we get caught up some in video's and hunting shows, they are rarely filmed in MN, most often it is Illinois Iowa Montana and Kansas(speaking just about whitetails). Speaking of Wisconsin, how do they keep on producing big trophies when there herd is overpopulated ? Hmmmm. I think it is what it is. Most bucks don't get a chance in MN to fulfill their potential plain and simple. Tons of does are bred by 1 1/2 year old bucks and they produce trophies some day as well if they can get old enough, they quite often don't get old enough. I hear ya trigger on going to [PoorWordUsage] to get them, a lot of people unfortunately for them don't have that [PoorWordUsage] kind of habitat on their property they need to hold these mature bucks.

[Quackaddict9]

I'm not like some of you guys who work hard, take the time to scout, find where the bucks are going and checking your trail cams, stand placement and all kinds of sorts it takes to get the job done in Deer hunting...some people just go out with their deer camp buddies and sit in a deer stand, enjoy it and get a big one, consider that lucky or not.

I don't work hard for deer hunting as waterfowling, I have more passion towards it and takes alot of my time, it is also a ways from my deer hunting land. Its same with some people who waterfowl hunt or other kinds of hunting, they dont work for it. Like going to public land all the time, sharing the same lake/pond/woods with other hunters and not expecting much...

Deer hunting is fun, I'll pass up a smaller buck, I'd take a doe instead if she was with a small 8 pointer. Give that 8 pointer another year or whatever it takes, he'll find another doe to breed. And big bucks are more fun to shoot! Gets your adrenline going!

[vister]

i can say i shot my 16 pointer with my bow on opener this year by doing just exactly what musky buck said. scouting, food plots, checking stand locations every couple of weeks for sign, trail camera, most importantly, sweating! I agree with every word musky buck said. some people are fortunate enough to have a trophy just walk out to them with no prep. some of us get into it enough that it is like a job to us. but one we love.

as far as triggers comment to no big bucks in MN, bullsh**. just because they aren't riddled in outdoor news, doesn't mean they aren't there. I haven't submitted my photo to a single newspaper or magazine company, however, have been told by a buddy he saw me and my buck in a magazine a few weeks ago.

But i am fortuante to hunt any of the topo lands you can hunt. river bottoms, meadow, oaks, swamp, and to mention the best of all, funnels near field edges. my dad is a crop farmer, so i can hunt hundreds of acres of you name it next to a field. but come rifle hunting, have to switch to the riverbottoms and meadows, as the fieldwork is done, and the deer have shifted to thicker habitat. as a matter of fact, last weekend we kicked up a 10 pointer that would rival my 16 pointers 185" mark. but unable to even get the gun up in time, and he was gone. believe me, big ones are out there.

on a side note, my brother bagged a 13 pointer last year rifle opener with a 23 1/2 inch inside spread. great mass too. hasn't been officially scored yet, but easily goes 170" plus. took it a mile and a half from where i got mine this year. genetics, yeah they are everything, but proper nutrition is just as crucial as letting basket 6s and 8s walk.

[Quackaddict9]

I think trigger was being sarcastic

[96trigger]

I think Quack is right, I have long been an advocate on here that we do have big bucks, but they aren't easy to get. Vister, read my whole post(s). I have gotten one in 20 years of hunting, and you know what, it was worth every one of those years leading up to it. I'm just now getting better at it, and in the last 5 years have taken it to a whole new level, a passion so to speak. My wife calls it an obsession. Quack, I don't want to imply that the people like you that hunt deer socially are bad hunters. I just think that some of the biggest complainers are people that don't want to put in the work and time for a big buck, they just want to stroll out in the woods and shoot one, and when that doesn't happen, or the neighbor gets lucky and gets one, they want a piece of that pie and the easy way out is to blame the DNR. I know that some areas truely do have deer population problems, honestly, I know that, but a large majority of the state has a healthy deer population, and that is thanks to the DNR. Shooting a big buck, or having the opportunity to shoot some big bucks, really changes the way a guy might think about he/she hunts. I used to be the guy that shot the first deer he saw. Do you have any idea how many big bucks I have seen come out well after all the other deer have already walked by? It has been a good number, had I shot those little guys or the first one to walk out, I would have had no shot, or would have been gutting the little guys when Big Daddy decides to show.

[Mark Christianson]

And how does this all relate to the topic of genes in deer???

[jnorm1984]

Hey Quackaddict9, i think you waterfowlers are completly nuts.........and... I LOVE IT!!!!! I got a couple buddies who are pretty hardcore, they live and breathe feathers.. I cant even get em to go bowhunting with me anymore, they are totally hooked... all year long they are squaking their duck and goose calls...we cant go cat fishin anymore without one of them morons blastin their calls mid summer!!.....what ever happened to a relaxin day on the river!!!But rock on waterfowlers, you are a differnt breed, just as some of us bowhunters are.............!

[96trigger]

Genetics Matters, OK. Alot of the real NICE Minnesota bucks that get shot, are probably only 3.5 years old, you wouldn't have that if you didn't have good genetics. Taking any small buck, young or otherwise, that has a less than perfect rack should not be the way to go even if you are managing for big bucks. Do you really think that 3.5 year old deer with a fork on his head is doing more breeding than the same aged 10 pointer? No, I think some of those might have poor genetics, but many had trouble during growth, most deer will amount to something if given the right amount of time, our genetics, food, and soil, are that good in Minnesota. I think the nicer 6-12 point buck will kick the [PoorWordUsage] out of the one with the poor genetics, and even if you don't see him out there, and you only see the crappy one, he is still probably out there.

The only case where I would want to start eliminating bucks for genetics would be if I lived in an area where all the bucks were supporting the same kind of crappy rack. If every buck I saw was a 3 pointer, young and old, I'd start over with a hunting party and eliminate every buck that I could that was showing that trait. Anything that wasn't showing that trait could live, no matter how big or small. But, thats just me, and it still wouldn't account for the doe population carrying those genetics.

[Quackaddict9]

Quote:

Hey Quackaddict9, i think you waterfowlers are completly nuts.........and... I LOVE IT!!!!! I got a couple buddies who are pretty hardcore, they live and breathe feathers.. I cant even get em to go bowhunting with me anymore, they are totally hooked... all year long they are squaking their duck and goose calls...we cant go cat fishin anymore without one of them morons blastin their calls mid summer!!.....what ever happened to a relaxin day on the river!!!But rock on waterfowlers, you are a differnt breed, just as some of us bowhunters are.............!

you can call me nuts! haha your buddies sound like me...I bring my goose and duck calls everywhere and blow it all the time, needless to say it annoys some people

[SSSTaxidermy]

Here is some information that I came across...

Factors that determine deer antler characteristics

A number of factors combine to determine the size, shape, and color of antlers of white-tailed deer. The following is a description of the most important factors and how each influences antler characteristics.

Factors that Determine Antler Size (listed in order of importance)

Age - age is the primary factor that determines exactly how big antlers will grow. Antler mass and length increases with age until bucks reach 6 to 7 years of age. In bucks 7 years old and older, antlers mass often increases, while overall length of the main beam and tines declining with each consecutive set of antlers.

Diet - nutritional requirements, particularly those for protein, energy, calcium, phosphorus and vitamins A & D, must also be met in order for deer to achieve maximum antler growth. Adequate nutrition in the months of February and March is especially important, because deer need to replace body fat and muscle lost during winter before antler growth can reach its potential. Dietary protein and energy restrictions will decrease antler volume, beam diameter, main beam length, and total number of antler points grown. Maximum antler development can occur when dietary calcium and phosphorus concentrations are at least 0.45% and 0.30% (dry matter basis), respectively.

Health (general physical condition, body weight, injury etc.) - body growth and maintenance takes precedence over antler growth. This means that only bucks in good physical condition will reach their full potential of antler growth.

Injury or damage to the pedicle or velvet may result in the injured antler becoming deformed. An injury to the body can also influence antler growth because energy is used to grow or repair muscle or tissue before it is used to grow antler. Sometimes, a severe injury to the body may result in stunted growth or deformity of the antler opposite side of the body that sustained the injury due to a phenomenon known as bilateral or geo-physical asymmetry.

Factors that Determine Antler Color and Symmetry

Genetics - antler symmetry is determined almost entirely by genetic makeup.

Oxidized blood/local plants - antler color depends partly on the amount of oxidized blood left over from velvet shedding and partly on a chemical reaction between the blood and sap from plants on which the antlers are rubbed

[Mark Christianson]

Some good info from QDMA again. Bryan Kinkel is a large contributor on the QDMA forums, and you would be hard pressed to find many people that know as much as he does about deer and what to do to create a haven for them.

"...bucks DO NOT directly pass down their antler size and shape to their male offspring. Now they certainly pass some genetic antler material on hereditarily, but it is not as straight-forward as most assume. However, all the male offpring of a single mother often have very similarly shaped antlers. If you keep seeing the same shaped rack over and over, it is likely a local doe social unit (all genetically related) that is the culprit.

Mature bucks play a critical role in herd performance. A small or wierd antlered mature buck is doing no harm to the herd genetically yet helping herd performance.

I would NEVER cull in a QDM program. I buck only gets killed if he meets the age requirement. The research is clear that you cannot alter the genetics of a local deer population through culling."

Bryan Kinkel, BSK Consulting.