Stupid Stud Track Damage

[Tinkhamtown]

Making a bad impression.

I have been seeing damage to public docks (two at Bald Eagle Lake) and private deck (Waterworks night club) and new sidewalks in Hugo caused by snowmobiles with studded tracks. Who would keep running off the docks over and over again doing great damage to the wooden docks, over private wooden deck doing damage, and down new public sidewalks with signs posted NO SNOWMOBILING doing damage and making all snowmobiles look BAD!

Tink

[wally-eye]

It's always a few bad apples that make the whole sport look bad.

[lawdog]

Personally I think we should get rid of studded tracks altogether except on a frozen lake. no need for them anywhere else and they do a lot of damage and give snowmobiling a really bad name to a lot of people.

[Central Bassman]

I agree, I really don't see the point of studding a track beside if you are on the ice a lot and even then.

[Tinkhamtown]

None of our 4 sleds have studs and we haven't had any problems. But back in the 70s and 80s I've seen sleds slide sideways and flip on icey hard packed road. Scarry as it was right next to me and we were going about 40 MPH. I think some sleds even today need then to keep going straight on ice.

[SledNeck]

Was the damage done intentionally?

I dont see how anyone in their right mind can ride Minnesota trails without studs. Youre wasting horsepower without em and studs help you stop much better. Id quit riding if I had to go studless.

[Deep_Sinker]

I do think studs have some advantages but for trail riding I don't think they are necessary and probably should be banned. I have seen many driveways torn up in the manner described. I do think it reflects very negatively on our sport.

 Originally Posted By: SledNeck

I dont see how anyone in their right mind can ride Minnesota trails without studs. Youre wasting horsepower without em and studs help you stop much better. Id quit riding if I had to go studless.

This is a careless statement. Everyone should consider when riding that you are representing all snowmobilers who have worked hard to create fun and safe trails. We don't need or want accidents or property damage that gives the nay-sayers more fire power to limit our beloved sport. Trails need to respected and are not meant to be a race track.

[SledNeck]

I cant tell you what, Mr. Sledding expert, that sleds without studs are the ones spinning out on the trails and making snowpiles which in turn make the trails rougher and more dangerous for other sleds.

You wanna talk danger, its the unstudded sleds coming around ICY corners on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE TRAIL! And being unstudded your snowmobile takes A LONGER DISTANCE TO STOP, therefore that make your snowmobile more UNSAFE than a studded sled. I cant see how anyone could say that an unstudded snowmobile is safer, because thats a lie.

As for property damage, ride where you are supposed to then you wont damage anyones property. Not to be nit picky, But I see far more damage on sidewalks and street from carbide marks than from studs.

[Lowblazah]

 Quote:

You wanna talk danger, its the unstudded sleds coming around ICY corners on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE TRAIL!

This can happen to anyone who doesnt think they need to slow down for corners. I had a guy in a group I was riding with (With studs) approach a corner too fast and he tipped his sled from cranking his skis and locking his brake. There he laid with his sled on its side with a broken windshield (now blocking the entire corner).

I personally prefer a paddle track over studs/no studs 1 1/4" will be my next choice...My 2" paddle gets beat up in marginal snow conditions, but on hardpack snow...it sure does HOOK UP!

the reason you see more damage from carbide ski marks than studs is because EVERY snowmobile has carbide wear rods....they are standard necessary equipment on sleds...

Dont get me wrong...studs definitely have their place, my sled is completely undrivable on ice with no snow. I can see studs adding great value to the racing and utility models...but otherwise...I wouldnt use them.

Sledneck....you know darn well you wouldnt quit riding if studs all of a sudden became banned tomorrow.

[SledNeck]

Yes I would quit. I'd just drive my truck to the bar and save tons of money!

In the upper midwest studs are almost necessary, unless your some kind of redbull drinkin powderrider wannabe that buys a Summit to ride in 1 foot of snow. In my particular area I see far MORE studded than unstudded sleds. Studding your track is by far the best mod you can do to your sled.

[Macgyver55]

 Originally Posted By: SledNeck

I dont see how anyone in their right mind can ride Minnesota trails without studs. Youre wasting horsepower without em and studs help you stop much better. Id quit riding if I had to go studless.

I must be out of my right one then. (been told that before)

Actually studs ROB horsepower! They cause the rotating mass of the sled to be heavier and will actually need more HP to turn the track. I know you mean they rob it because you cant put it to the trail as well, but that only applies in icy or VERY hardpacked conditions.

I've been riding sleds for about 36 years. Owned quite a few, (mostly high performance and trail) and put on TONS of miles (well over 100,000) with both studded and non studded tracks. I'd have to say, back in the day when tracks were straight bar 3/4 or 7/8 lugs studs were more common and trail grooming was not quite what it is today, studs were far more important. With todays better tracks, ripsaw patterns and sturdier, taller lugs have eliminated most of the need for studs. Only on icy trails or lakes will you notice much difference. And, they are not only hard on surfaces, they are hard on tracks. (I've replaced plenty) I have quit using them because I no longer find enough benefit in them to justify the extra cost and maintainance they cause.

The main reasons someone is a danger riding without studs is overdriving their ability, or overdriving the capabilities of their sled! A good rider knows the limits of both!

[lawdog]

well said Mac.

[SledNeck]

 Originally Posted By: Macgyver55

I must be out of my right one then. (been told that before)

Actually studs ROB horsepower! They cause the rotating mass of the sled to be heavier and will actually need more HP to turn the track. I know you mean they rob it because you cant put it to the trail as well, but that only applies in icy or VERY hardpacked conditions.

I've been riding sleds for about 36 years. Owned quite a few, (mostly high performance and trail) and put on TONS of miles (well over 100,000) with both studded and non studded tracks. I'd have to say, back in the day when tracks were straight bar 3/4 or 7/8 lugs studs were more common and trail grooming was not quite what it is today, studs were far more important. With todays better tracks, ripsaw patterns and sturdier, taller lugs have eliminated most of the need for studs. Only on icy trails or lakes will you notice much difference. And, they are not only hard on surfaces, they are hard on tracks. (I've replaced plenty) I have quit using them because I no longer find enough benefit in them to justify the extra cost and maintainance they cause.

The main reasons someone is a danger riding without studs is overdriving their ability, or overdriving the capabilities of their sled! A good rider knows the limits of both!

All we have here is icy and hardpacked conditions for trails. Doesnt really seem to matter the trail condition unless they are all fluff, studs have the advantage. Better gas milage, better stopping, less spinning (and causin piles on the trail).

Almost every new or newer sled I see in the parking lots here are studded..and everywhere else Ive rode...(central MN, Northshore, Northern WI, UP). Its an overwhelming majority. Ive seen alot of bad stuff happen on the lake to unstudded sleds.

If a deer runs out or you come around a corner and meet a groomer (Ive done it many times in the UP) or you come around a corner and a tree is in the middle of the trail....

would you rather be studded or unstudded?

[Gus]

 Originally Posted By: Tinkhamtown

Making a bad impression.

I have been seeing damage to public docks (two at Bald Eagle Lake) and private deck (Waterworks night club) and new sidewalks in Hugo caused by snowmobiles with studded tracks. Who would keep running off the docks over and over again doing great damage to the wooden docks, over private wooden deck doing damage, and down new public sidewalks with signs posted NO SNOWMOBILING doing damage and making all snowmobiles look BAD!

Tink

There are bad drivers on our highways also but do you think that makes all car drivers look bad?

Obviously the culprit here had no regard for his actions and likely damage would have occurred with or without studs. These persons were intentionally doing something illegal (trespassing, damaging public and private property, etc) The issue lies there and is not the fault of any equipment used.

We are surrounded by idiots everyday everywhere....we can't blame inanimate objects for the actions of their drivers. If we do, heck lets start by banning cars. I've never been almost killed by a studded snowmobile but I have by a car.

I realize you are disgusted by this and I'm sure 99% of the general public will be as well including myself. But lets try to keep our anger focused where it belongs.

[CHODE]

Well if studs are legal then so be it, its fine to run them,

not worth a heated argument, or political argument for that matter.

But no pun intended "sledneck" you made the comment about driving your truck to the bar to save money! I think that is a very poor statement on your part, and that doesnt help the sport.Also I am not implying your a reckless rider because you hit the bars either. Just a generalized statement!

[Uncle Bill]

This kind of damage has nothing to do with studs.

This damage has everything to do with idiots.

Comparable to bullet holes in a stop sign.

Can't blame the equipment.

Only the operator.

[Uncle Bill]

Mcgyver,

We let them ban studs.

They'll be coming after our 27" mudders next.

It's a slippery slope.

[SledNeck]

 Originally Posted By: Uncle Bill

This kind of damage has nothing to do with studs.

This damage has everything to do with idiots.

Comparable to bullet holes in a stop sign.

Can't blame the equipment.

Only the operator.

good post

[Macgyver55]

 Originally Posted By: SledNeck

All we have here is icy and hardpacked conditions for trails. Doesnt really seem to matter the trail condition unless they are all fluff, studs have the advantage. Better gas milage, better stopping, less spinning (and causin piles on the trail).

Almost every new or newer sled I see in the parking lots here are studded..and everywhere else Ive rode...(central MN, Northshore, Northern WI, UP). Its an overwhelming majority. Ive seen alot of bad stuff happen on the lake to unstudded sleds.

If a deer runs out or you come around a corner and meet a groomer (Ive done it many times in the UP) or you come around a corner and a tree is in the middle of the trail....

would you rather be studded or unstudded?

Icy and hardpacked?... Are we both talking about an average winter in northern Minnesota? If so, I'd have to disagree. For a while this year they were, I'll give you that, but more near the towns than anywhere. I don't drink, so I tend to ride away from towns and such and tend to pile on miles and encounter very few bad trails.

As far as the deer running out....don't even try to fool yourself, doesn't matter, studs or no studs you ain't gonna stop in time. I hit one about 10 years ago on my (heavily studded) MXZ with nice new carbides. It happened, and was over SO fast, I honestly didn't know what I had hit until I had stopped. It was as if the deer had dropped out of the sky! My buddy, (who I had just passed) thought I was dead. He said all he saw was a cloud of snow, parts of my sled 50 feet in the air and a whole lot of blood all over the trail when he came to a stop. The deer was thrashing around with its hind quarters basically ripped off. I was sort of slumped on the seat of my sled wondering what had happened. Luckily I had hit it hard enough to throw the deer up and over me instead of taking my head off. I have to admit that day made me a bit gun-shy and I realized then that even with the best of equipment, overdriving surrounding conditions will get you it trouble sooner than later.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating banning studs, or saying people shouldn't use them. Believe me I've put in thousands of them. They have their benefits, but "Better gas mileage, better stopping, less spinning" are all things far easier to control with your thumb than with studs.

[311Hemi]

Well, I can tell you I would hate to see studs banned. I for one use my sled for both ice fishing and sledding. When I hook up my large Otter portable and try to go out on local metro lakes or Mille Lacs and there is little to no snow cover it can be a pain to get moving. Granted it can also be a pain to steer but my main reason for studs is because of lakes and I would rather have trouble steering then moving at all.

With that said I do prefer a studded track for riding around MN. If you made up to the arrow head region this year there was a fair amount of ice in the corners of many of the main trails up there. I prefer the stopping ability and control with studs and could tell a very noticeable difference on the way a sled handles when I jumped on a non-studded sled this past winter. Could I do without....sure and I have in the past. It's all about riding ability and riding within your limits.

Unfortunately it's the bad apples that make this an issue, not the studs, much like any other activities that are controversial. Idiots blasting signs with rifles....maybe take them away? 4-wheelers ripping up ditches....maybe set a requirement on how big lugs can be on the tires so that there is less damage.

Do studs cause more damage when driving across pavement or cement at a stead pace, or is it just when the tracks are spun that causes the most issues?

[Deep_Sinker]

 Originally Posted By: Macgyver55

They have their benefits, but "Better gas mileage, better stopping, less spinning" are all things far easier to control with your thumb than with studs.

Well said MacGyver!

[SledNeck]

 Originally Posted By: Macgyver55

Icy and hardpacked?... Are we both talking about an average winter in northern Minnesota? If so, I'd have to disagree. For a while this year they were, I'll give you that, but more near the towns than anywhere. I don't drink, so I tend to ride away from towns and such and tend to pile on miles and encounter very few bad trails.

As far as the deer running out....don't even try to fool yourself, doesn't matter, studs or no studs you ain't gonna stop in time. I hit one about 10 years ago on my (heavily studded) MXZ with nice new carbides. It happened, and was over SO fast, I honestly didn't know what I had hit until I had stopped. It was as if the deer had dropped out of the sky! My buddy, (who I had just passed) thought I was dead. He said all he saw was a cloud of snow, parts of my sled 50 feet in the air and a whole lot of blood all over the trail when he came to a stop. The deer was thrashing around with its hind quarters basically ripped off. I was sort of slumped on the seat of my sled wondering what had happened. Luckily I had hit it hard enough to throw the deer up and over me instead of taking my head off. I have to admit that day made me a bit gun-shy and I realized then that even with the best of equipment, overdriving surrounding conditions will get you it trouble sooner than later.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating banning studs, or saying people shouldn't use them. Believe me I've put in thousands of them. They have their benefits, but "Better gas mileage, better stopping, less spinning" are all things far easier to control with your thumb than with studs.

I live 50 feet from a snowmobile trail, what would I know?

I came 3 feet from hitting a deer in march. I have 168 1.325" studs in a 1" hacksaw track. I would have nailed that deer If I would have been unstudded. Many snowmobiles go on lakes and down roads. What happens when you brake on a road without studs? You do 360s.

I dont know EXACTLY what overdriving the conditions mean? Going faster than 30mph? If you have say 50,000 miles on riding the exact same way and have never crashed, is it still overdriving? If you hit a deer around a bling corner at 20mph, were you over driving?

You take 2 guys, one with studs one unstudded, same sleds going the same speeds over the course of the season. Who pays more in gas?

[Macgyver55]

 Quote:

I live 50 feet from a snowmobile trail, what would I know?

Lucky you! If its in Minnesota then I've probably been there.

 Quote:

I came 3 feet from hitting a deer in march. I have 168 1.325" studs in a 1" hacksaw track. I would have nailed that deer If I would have been unstudded.

Or you could have been unlucky like me and never even saw it in time to hit the brakes....

 Quote:

Many snowmobiles go on lakes and down roads. What happens when you brake on a road without studs? You do 360s

Roads are for cars, and if you are on one by law the snowmobile speed limit is the same as for cars. Also, if you are on one and KNOW that stopping quick on one will spin you out you slow down ....simple!

 Quote:

I dont know EXACTLY what overdriving the conditions mean? Going faster than 30mph?

Really? You don't? It simply means that you drive at a speed where you can keep control your sled based the trail and visibility at any given time.

 Quote:

If you hit a deer around a blind corner at 20mph, were you over driving?

If you hit anything going around a blind corner at 20mph, you were over driving! What if it were a broken down sled or someone else ho had crashed and you hit them? If its a blind corner why would you be going faster than what you can keep control?

 Quote:

You take 2 guys, one with studs one unstudded, same sleds going the same speeds over the course of the season. Who pays more in gas?

The one who uses less thumb!

Really Sledneck I'm not arguing that studs are no good, just that they are not the fix all that you make them out to be.

Just ride sensible so you'll be around so we can ride together some time!

[SledNeck]

The one who uses less thumb will be the guy with studs, the unstudded guy will be using more thumb to keep up.

[Macgyver55]

Ever hear the one about the tortoise and the hare?