When does it stop?

[Rippinlip]

I decided not to hunt tonight and just drive around and visit with some land owners I have permission to hunt on thier land.

After visiting with the first couple I really almost started to get frustrated, understand I DO NOT own my own land and this is all permission hunting land, but I will say none of these spots are over 10 acres and many of them are alot smaller.

Point I am trying to get to is: When is money gonna start meaning less than a good hand shake and friendship?

Some of these small tracks are woodlots and brushy fencelines that I have been Deer hunting for multiple years and alot I have acquired by helping out in the summer some, putting in a fence, re-roofing a small shed, etc. and today to find out I have been ousted due to a payment from another hunter. Sorry to rant, just a little upset.

Is this becoming more of a THING, or is this more of the exception?

[harvey lee]

Its to bad but I really believe that the day will come when one will need to own their own hunting land or will need to have a very good friend. The other option is state land.

With all the competition for hunting ground and the better stuff for sure, people that cannot afford to purchase land are going to be willing to pay a lease to have it as their own.

Right or wrong I dont know but I do believe that average Joe is going to start to feel the squeeze in his pocketbook.

[Kyle]

I totally understand your frustration. I have secured many hunting spots over the years, thinking I am friends with the land owner after a while. I have even done some pretty big jobs just to help them out, and thats above and beyond work I already did to get hunting permission. Then, the next year I get bought out. Half the time I never even see the people that bought me out, on the land hunting it. It totally sucks. Makes me frustrated with humans in general. I would never do that to someone.

[maros91]

Money talks; good deeds, and hard work take a hike I guess. I also have a couple of tracts that I gained permission on and have not had this problem yet. I can see it coming though. Hunting is getting to be an expensive hobby. Now it looks like we have to lease small acreage just to hunt a handful of times a month. It makes the small guy want to find a different hobby.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

This paradigm will add to the demise of the sport much faster then the Anti's!

[Mark Christianson]

I have access to a farm of 1000 acres for turkey, duck and some deer hunting.

In the last 5 years, its gone from my family hunting it primarily for waterfowl and turkeys, to now a miriad of others gaining permission with open pocket books. I still have access, but now almost feel obligated that I should also "pay my way" like these others have done.

Really sux when its private land and I dont even know if someone might be hunting a spot that I was planning on going to.........

Money talks, and you know the rest.

Its not going to get any easier as the years go by. More and more people, same amount of land we are all fighting for.

[Gissert]

Escalating property taxes and repeated school referendums add to the pressure for some landowners to look for fees.

I still have a handshake agreement for the land I hunt, but I know how much their tax bill has gone up as I live in the same district.

[Slow Jigger]

I hunt on land of a guy I used to work with. I have offered money, venison, and to help out. He has said no to all payments. I still get him gift certs so he can go out to dinner from time to time. He said I didn’t have to do that I said I wanted to thank him for his opportunity he has given me. He gives me deer reports and we talk from time to time about things.

That being said I am worried about losing this to big $$ but I think he would ask me first if he was thinking that way.

[archerystud]

When I began bowhunting about 25 years ago I had my pick of properties to hunt, not anymore.

I was fortunate to have my dad by some good ground to hunt on for $200/acre back in the 80's. We got another good deal on a foreclosure and I pay the taxes on that. It's 120 acres and this year I'll pay $1000 in taxes on it. That's a good chunk of change in my book or should I say out of my pocketbook.

I wonder how much a farmer with 1000 acres is paying on land which is zoned agricultural? It's sad but if you put yourself in the other persons shoes you can see why they might want to recoup some of the tax dollars.

[Piker]

A couple of these latter posts are exactly why we are seeing this trend.

A few years a go a farmer had a piece of land with a little bit of woods, a little water, and some tillable. The tillable was the only land of any real value and was taxed as such.

Now the little bit of woods and water is worth more than the tillable land and is taxes are higher. So essentially, the farmer is paying higher taxes for land that is of little value. It only makes sense that the farmer would try and recoupe some of that money from the people that are driving that cost up, the hunters.

The solution is common sense assessments. If the land is zoned as agriculture any woods and wetland should be assessed as garbage land, in terms of a farmer paying taxes on it.

[DonBo]

Montana has a great idea going. A bit of every non-resident license goes toward private land access. Block Management is what they call it. The landowner gets payment for hunter days afield. The state even takes over the liability of any damage done or injury to hunters.

[Scott M]

I like the block management system, its similar to the easements in place with property owners on trout streams in SE MN. The only drawback is those annual payments are just that, temporary. They ensure nothing long term. Still, I would like to see more done about open access. This past weekend the property next to my family's cabin owned by Boundary Logging Company was advertising exclusive hunting rental rights. The Potlatch, Blandin, and Boundary big pieces of forest land are all going up for rental hunting, and private land is leading the way.

Thank goodness I have found a few private folks that will let me on, and I let them know how thankful I am with thank you's, Christmas cards, some goodies baked by my wife...

Just keep trying. I've been turned down by ten private people for every one that lets me on. And put some pressure on your representatives for more open hunting initiatives. Minnesota has a lot of public land and we can always use more.

[harvey lee]

da chise31 is right. keep asking as there are people out there that will let you hunt for free. It may be getting more diffucult but it can still happen.

I learned years ago for deer hunting to ask in the spring. Many will wait until a month befgore the season and then the ones that will let you hunt are full.

[Hotspotter]

It's a difficult situation that I'm on both sides of. My father farms a good chunk of land near the home place that I hunt on, but I also ask quite a bit of permission in the surrounding areas. In addition to that, I own a 40 which is primarily wooded, but has about 10 acres ag. land. Having this ag. land attached cuts me a break for the rest of it in our county, but you can hardly call almost $1500k a year a break.

I will say that nothing tweaks a farmer (or myself) worse than "friends" who show up like clock-work around hunting season or slightly before to come hunting. Sometimes they'll even come help you throw bales or unload corn for a day. In return, they expect unfettered access at their time of choosing, for multiple game species, at different times of the year.....they bring friends and typically overlook common courtesies because they're "friends." No, not everyone is like this, but it's a trend I see too often. They're "friends" when it's convenient for them, but you can set a watch by when they'll be showing up at your door.

Farmers aren't stupid, they're realists like few others. They can sniff-out being used, and for their own livelihood's sake, need to make decisions sometimes based on the pocketbook. Can you blame them? A one-time payment with a contract that absolves them from fault, lays out both parties' responsibilities, and money-in hand.....sounds tough to beat. We make the same decisions everyday. Walmart vs. local hardware store, Wells Fargo vs. hometown bank, etc., etc., etc.

I will say I'm not bashing anyone, or saying that anyone here has participated in this behavior; I'm only stating what's happened in our situation.

We've heard it before....."hey, I thought we were pals?" A farmer doesn't need those kind of friends. Rethink these relationships as their taxes and inputs go up at a pace higher than the price of corn and soybeans.

Some suggestions I have are to make a deal. These are businessmen dressed in jeans and a seed cap.

-Bank hours with a farmer relative to a wage/hr. that you both agree upon. When he's approached by someone wanting to lease it, he'll have how much he either owes you in labor, or a trade in terms of work for hunting. Rather than cut you a check, he'll let you hunt more times than not.

-Be on call. If he has your cell and isn't afraid to use it, you're an asset. Primarily if you can come to the rescue when he needs a hand and no one else is there.

-Spend more time with him than just during hunting season. If you really want to be his friend, be his friend. If you don't, then just call it what it is.

-Christmas cards, gift certificates, etc.....all these things help.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is. You're actively maintaining a relationship, like we all do, everyday. Just because it used to only cost X$, doesn't mean it'll stay that cheap for long; and be prepared to pay exactly what it's worth to you. We're all programed to pay as little for whatever we get as possible, and there's nothing wrong with it, and nothing the matter with trying to strike a bargain. The trick is to understand that it goes both ways.

Joel

[DonBo]

WOW jnelson, nice vent. But you are right on the money. We need to remember our landowners the rest of the year as well. If you are not willing to pay for access, don't take it personal when someone else is hunting your spot.

[Kyle]

Nice post Joel,

I can see your point, and it is very valid. The only thing I dont agree with, and you actually didnt say this someone else did, but it doesnt make sense to say that farmers are now charging people to hunt because they pay higher taxes. Well what if hunters start deciding that they dont want to pay, or the price is too high and there isnt enough security in that that land will be there for them next season? The wage farmers are getting from hunters now is not a set income that will always be there. So how can they rely on that because of higher taxes? They still own the land, and if no one wants to pay, then the land owner still has to pay those taxes regarless. I understand every little bit back in the checkbook helps, but to me it sounds like a poor way of doing your finances. I personally wouldnt count on a variable source of income like that.

[harvey lee]

Great post Joel. I know with the land in ND that I personally oversee and allow others to hunt that some are very grateful and others will use one to death.

I think what some dont understnad is that so many will take advantage of you. My father use to always say yes to almost everyone and then they broke every rule. After a few years he just said no to all. I could never understand this no to everyone.

Now, years later I am dealing with all the hunters who wood like to hunt and yes I do say yes and expect nothing in return but for all who have permission to just follow some simple rule. One would be suprised just how many will not do that and the percentage is rather high.

For the last few years I now am getting very picky just who I will let hunt this property. One does get sick of getting ran over all the time. Its sad but it is true.

Plain and simple, when I give permission for one to hunt, they will follow all rules to a T or they will be gone. It has now gotten to the point where I'm starting to feel the way my father did and figure its just easier to say no but I still have faith in some and will continue to do so.

As far as pay hunting goes, I know that the neighbor gets $1,500.00 per season to hunt. I know thats nuts but he gets it. In no way would I ever think of doing this to a sportsman but thats just me.

[Hotspotter]

Vent....yeah.....maybe more like a rant I'll settle down a bit.

I'd like to add that we do not charge to let people deer and turkey hunt on our land. While they may be few and far between, there is a select group of hunters that value the experience enough to maintain the relationship.

I'll agree with you hunter4life, not a reliable source of income, but then again, nothing in farming is reliable. Futures fluctuate daily, so do your inputs. When something breaks, you can be talking in the thousands of dollars, sometimes tens of thousands, rather than hundreds. Risk is an inherent part of the job.

Rather than throwing a pity party for a very rewarding profession, I mean only to offer another perspective.

Joel

[snapcrackpop]

This is the biggest reason every hunter should belong to Pheasants Forever or MNDeer Hunters, etc. I know PF will not turn down any "good piece of property". This will secure hunting areas for our kids.

We need more WMAs and to make existing WMAs bigger.

[Kyle]

Its about just secureing "some" hunting areas the sake of saving some darn habitat. I know lots of people that just dont hunt because of the land availability problem. I dont have children yet, and I know we have to think for the future generations, but what about us right now? I feel jipped as a hunter because of all the great fishing and hunting stories my father and grandfather have told me. According to them, hunting and fishing is nothing like it used to be way back in the day. Im sure my my mentality will change when I become a dad, and I know this is the whole point for us saving habitat for our children, but I sure wish my dad and grandpa would have done more for my generation.

[harvey lee]

I may not be as old as your father but I will stand by this, I have hunted and fished for over 40 years and still today have great fishing and hunting. Yes, I may travel a little farther away from home but I still do very well. In the past 5 years I have taken the majority of the biggest fish I have caught and the size of my deer is preety darn good every year.

No complaints from me as I'm having the time of my life.

[Stratosman]

Yeah but we're not all retired like some people.

[harvey lee]

Retired. Seems like I'm working on FM stuff 8 hours a day and 7 days a week. I just go.

[Rippinlip]

Thanks for all the replies, I understand some of the responses as far as people trying to recoupe some of the expenses that is encountered by owning land, but that is exactly what I was doing when I threw in a helping hand in the summer and previous years by helping out.

Should I have billed them so I could recoupe my work I did for them?

I guess I am not that kind of person to be doing that, I was brought up with the meaning to help when you can and that a hand shake means alot, guess times are a changing.

[Hotspotter]

Rippin':

Sounds like you got didn't get a fair deal, I agree. And I think a handshake does mean alot in the right context, but there are lots of folks out there shaking hands and being disingenuine about it. I wouldn't drop a bill or hang it over their heads, but getting to know them through repeated visits and working out deals is a good way to go about it.

Maybe the guy had a bad year and really needed the money; if he's a good guy he'll probably be more embarassed about it than ever. If not, then maybe your hunting days on his property were numbered anyway?

It's all about treating people right, saying what you mean, and meaning what you say. You'll end up finding one or more landowners who are good guys and just make sure to keep up that relationship.....you'll be good to go. Good luck!

Joel