Flourocarbon Leaders?

[tylerflom89]

I've heard you guys talking about flourocarbon leaders instead of regular ones. Is this the same flourocarbon that Vanish is made out of? I've never fished Vanish, is it that strong?

[JohnMickish]

No, it's not that strong it's that big. Use a 50-80 Lb leader. The stuff is much larger than a braided leader but it turns invisable under the water. (so they say)

[kjgmh]

I got some 100lb off of hsolist and used them the last half of season. I landed 4 fish on them and was very impressed. I had no problems with them. I really like that they do not kink like the 124 single strand that I normally use.

[Random guy]

Segaur (S/P?) Tough stuff.

[MuskyBrian]

I was not impressed at all with the Flaurocarbon Leaders. Ran into problems using certain lures with it, i just did not feel I was getting proper action out of most lures I used. While it is nice to have that invisibility, if the lures aren't working properly then invisibility is not going too help much...BUT that's just my opinion, others love them for sure

[Muskydanno]

Went to flourocarbon last year and wouldnt go back. Like Jon says above Seagaur if you are making your own stuff .Thats some tough stuff. Always test the crimps though whether its stuff you are making or stuff you are buying. The only thing i can say is that for me the only thing i couldnt use it with is gliders, that solid wire imparts more of the action i want.Otherwise they get used for just about everything else.

[RK]

Hiya,

I've been experimenting with Fluoro off and on for the last several years. Here are some thoughts from my experience:

- Getting the correct crimp sleeves is critical. I prefer double-barrel aluminum sleeves. You also need a heavy-duty compound pressure crimping pliers to get the crimps seated correctly. They run about $30 in saltwater catalogs.

- #130 fluoro seems to be about right for most muskie applications. Heavy enough to take the abuse but not so heavy that it affects lure action. Above #150 or so, the weight and, more likely more importantly, the resistance due to increased diameter, can deaden lure action on some baits like cranks and jerkbaits.

- For lighter baits like small cranks or topwaters (cold fronts, pressured water, early season) I use #80 fluoro and tie directly to my main line with back to back uni-knots. I run about a 5' leader, and you can reel the knot right through the guides. Actually sort of slick for night fishing because it's a warning that you're getting close to the rod tip. For the knots to work well the leader and line have to be roughly the same diameter. If the line diameter's significantly smaller you can double the line by tying a Bimini twist (which isn't as hard to tie as it looks - 20 minutes' practice in front of the TV with a spool of line and you'll have it down). For cranks and topwaters I just put a snap on the end of the leader, or a snap swivel for bucktails.

- Fluro makes great trolling leaders. I like that it doesn't seem to cut fish up as bad as wire if they roll. However, trolling can put a lot more wear on the pivot points on the leader where the snap and swivel rub against the leader material loops. So on my trolling leaders I put spring protectors on the loop ends. Spring protectors are basically little metal or plastic coils that slide over the leader material. You can also use thimbles, but I prefer the coils. You can find both these items in a good saltwater catalog (I get most of my components from Bass Pro Shops' "Offshore Angler" catalog).

- Fluoro is, in my opinion, NOT appropriate in a couple situations:

* when you're trolling over rocks, such as fall trolling on Lake of the Woods or other shield lakes. Fluoro abrades, and in discussing it with some others who've spent time using fluoro for a variety of species, once it gets abraded its strength drops pretty dramatically. When your leader is being constantly rubbed over rocks, stick to wire. Fluoro does, however, seem to handle rushes ok.

* for 'grab and turn' type presentations where a fish is likely to engulf the whole bait like jigs or small plastics. Fluoro is abrasion resistant, but not cut resistant. I haven't had a bad experience with this yet so maybe just my perception, but my gut tells me there's a risk of having fish cut off a leader when the leader is sawing across their teeth. Of course, fish can engulf any bait, so I'm just thinking percentages here...

- Watch connection/pivot points (loops where swivels and snaps rub) on fluoro leaders carefully. When they start to abrade noticeably, change leaders.

- I use fluoro for bucktails, spinnerbaits, and topwaters, and cranks. Works ok with some jerkbaits, seems to mess up others. Probably depends on how you want them to work. Just have to experiment.

- I'm not convinced the visibility thing is a big advantage with fluoro. When you're combining stealth with firetiger, pink, or lime green lures, the logic of 'looking natural' sort of goes out the window. It *may* help on pressured water perhaps. What I *do* think it does is makes lures behave a little differently. And the reduction in the Pain in the Rear factor of kinked wire leaders is nice.

All in all, fluoro leaders get a little more time on my boat each year. Not an every application deal, but certainly useful...

Cheers,

RK

[Random guy]

Nice post RK. Thanks for the info, I never thought of tying direct good idea!

[almostthere!]

Have an uncle who owns a bait shop in Sacramento. Visited him in August and dude gave me some King Lines. How does that stuff stack up against Seaquar(sp.), P-line, etc.?

If King Lines work great, I can get them from him for real cheap.

[Scoot]

RK, I've been using flouro for a couple years now and have had no problems. However, when I go to LOW I don't use it at all. Even when only casting, I'm afraid I'll get a fish on that will head for a rock and cut me off quickly. Sounds like you don't worry much about this. Am I just being paranoid or do you think this is a realistic fear?

I totally agree about not using flouro for trolling rocky areas, but what about casting in areas that have lots of rock?

[RK]

Hiya,

almostthere... I'm not familiar with that brand, so I can't speak to it in particular. What I can say though is I've tried fluoro from a number of other different companies (mainly P-line, Vanish and Seagaur) and as near as I can tell, there isn't a noticeable difference between them when it comes to muskie leader materials. I suppose one's a little stiffer or softer than the next, but when you're talking about #130 material used with big baits on mainly straight-ish retreives, that level if subtlety probably doesn't matter much. The brands DO differ in their copolymer-type lines (found that out the hard way) but for muskies...I bet the stuff you can get would be fine. All the better if the price is right.

Scoot - I dont' worry about it as much when casting frankly. I'm not as worried about abrasion when a fish is on as I am the constant abrasion of trolling. When you're banging rocks in the fall a lot of the time the leader is actually what makes contact with the rocks first. When the bait's behind the boat, the line angle from the surface to the lure puts the leader into contact with steep edged points and boulders way before the bait gets there. If you want to see what I mean, imagine a bait heading for your desk running along the floor. Now picture the line running up from the bait at say a 35 degree or so angle (and even that's steep compared to a lot of baits). The line will intersect with the edge of the desk long before the bait will. And the height of a desk isn't a big change compared to some of the depth changes you run across trolling. If you look at a singlestrand leader after a day's trolling it's worn silver a foot or two above the bait from riding up and over the rocks. You also usually end up changing out the snap a time or two also, as they get all chewed up. (And the poor Jakes get their noses bruised up). That's what roaches a fluoro leader. When it comes to fighting a fish casting, I suppose a fish getting you into the rocks is possible, but it'd be a lot less of a concern for me than trolling unless I'm banging points with a deep diving crank or something...

So that's my logic. Not saying it isn't flawed logic, but that's my logic

Cheers,

RK

[Random guy]

I have to agree with RK on this. I have never had any trouble with a leader even when casting cranks up into the rocks or trolling over rock points and I have stopped/ turned the boat from snagging a rock to hard. The way I look at it is the benefits of floro are much more then the risks involved. It is as with many things in musky fishing a numbers game. With those gin clear lakes like Mantrap or Walker Bay of Leech I feel leader visability is a strong factor, going invisable can only increase your odds of a strike.

I can truly say that I have never lost a fish due to a floro leader failure, and I have been using them for four or five years now. Just keep an eye on the wear or nicks that may occur and if they get chewed up replace them.

[cjac]

This is a wealth of information thanks to all. I used them a little last year and definitely will be using more and more. One more question: As a rule, what length are you making your leaders?

Jon~ I totally agree on the visibility factor. Anything that can turn the tables is a must to consider. If it can turn one follow into a hook up I'm all for it!

RK~ You know how many of us you got all distracted with the thoughts of a bait running across the office floor towards the desk??? Great info from you....as always. Thanks for your detailed posts.

cjac

[art]

I've never used fluoro. Always made mine from single strand. I'd like to go to the fluoro for all the reasons mentioned. So my question is how do you make your leaders? Jon it sounds like you use the o-rings and RK you use crimp sleeves. How exactly do each of you build these? Thanks.

[RK]

Hiya -

cjac - Ahaha.....sorry to derail your train of thought with the bait description. Hate to be a job productivity killer...

Art - I know there are some that tie knots even in fairly heavy Fluoro (you can use a 3 wrap Uni-knot) but you *really* have to work to cinch up the knots, so it's sort of a nuisance I think. Knotted connections are fine for stuff that's under #90 or so though. Lubricate the bejeebers out of the knots before you cinch them up though. The one thing Fluoro really doesn't like is heat...

Crimps are a lot easier for heaver materials. Just get some of the right size sleeves (have to check but I think the size I use for #130 is 1.3mm) and a crimping pliers. The red handled, cheap crimping pliers you can find at most sporting goods stores don't work very well for the bigger heavy-walled sleeves you need to use - they tend to flatten the sleeves rather than crimping them down uniformly - you get sharp edges and pinched leader materials. If you're going to get serious about making your own leaders, get a good set of compound crimpers from a saltwater catalog. They'll set you back around $30 or so.

From there, the terminal ends can be whatever snaps, swivels, solid rings or split rings you want. Like Jon, I use solid rings on leaders (fluoro and wire) where line twist isn't a problem. For bucktails I use ball bearing swivels. Cut a length of leader material, slide on a sleeve, then the ring or swivel, and pass the tag end of the leader back through the sleeve. You have to make sure that the tag end and main line are lying side by side in the sleeve, not crossed over one another. Then crimp down the sleeve with the pliers. Only crimp down once, and make sure the sleeve is centered in the crimper's jaws so you aren't clamping down over the end of the sleeve. Do that, and the sleeve edge cuts into the leader material. When you're done, you want the ends of the sleeves to be flared out like the bell on a trumpet. Trim the tag end close, repeat with the snap or split ring, and you're done...

One thing about fluoro - you have to get used to how it wears compared to wire. It does fatigue, but at a different rate than wire. When it starts to get white in places, it's starting to wear and should be replaced. Like I said, for trolling leaders I use wire or plastic loop protectors. Could use them on casting leaders too but I usually don't.

Just some thoughts...

Cheers,

RK

[Random guy]

I actually don't use crimps, I knot it on each end. One of those productive days I tied and crimped about twenty leaders and got out the big scale for research and devolpment. I put one end of the leader in the vice, one foot on the bench and pulled the other end with the scale until they broke. After hitting the concrete a couple of times I relized that the knots held 20% stronger then crimps, so knots it was for me. Granted my crimps may not have been properly crimped but with all the knot styles and crimp styles I used knots seemed to hold up better.

As far as tying knots in heavy floro you have a challange ahead of you. Like RK stated LUBE IS A MUST. If you heat the floro at all the knot will bind and won't set. To give you an idea when I tie leaders up I wear a leather glove with the line wrap around my hand to pull with and the other end in the vice. Then a dab of superglue on each knot just to make sure.

Another note to this is I am using 85lb floro, anything heavier I think you would have to crimp, I tried knotting 110lb once and had more bad knots then good and wasted alot of line.

As far as the terminal stuff~solid rings all around, even the swivels I use must have solid rings, just a preferance thing.

[art]

Thanks for the info guys. I'm going to head to Cabelas today and get my material. I've been hitting the walleyes but getting the itch to put some flags up for some toothy critters. Then on a cold night I can make some leaders for the summer muskie hunts.

[art]

OK. I hit Cabelas and Fleet Farm today looking for the fluoro line for leaders. The biggest either of them had was 30#. Where can I get the 80+# stuff? Thorne Bro. or special order? I only need a small spool to get me started.

[RK]

Hi Art -

Either Thorne Bros., or Bass Pro. Finding heavy fluoro can be sort of a challenge but I think Thorne's carries the heavier Seaguar now. The leader material is sold in coils, and unfortunately it ain't cheap. I think the 25 yd coils (which are what you'll get up to #80) are around $30. 15 meter coils of the heavier stuff run about $45 or so.

Jon - agree 100% on needing solid rings on swivels. Cheap swivels with split rings are bad news...

Cheers,

RK