2017 Fish House Build

[PurpleFloyd]

13 minutes ago, Lip_Ripper Guy said:

Well, the DIY lift bed I had high hopes for is a flop (so far).  Everything was built perfectly, and measures perfectly (within 1/32" all around) after it was installed, but it binds like a mother.  Pretty much what a lot of people thought would happen.  Anyone have ideas?

The vertical wall supports are 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/8 square, the sliders are 6" tall, and 2" x 2" x 3/16", so there is a fair amount of clearance all the way around.  It just doesn't lift evenly without binding.  Might be headed for the scrap bin!

 

Need a rack and pinion or lateral stabilizer. In the cabinet business we run into this when drawers get extra wide.everything can be built perfectly square but the drawers will still bind. It takes a rack and pinion to synchronize the right and left side to make them operate properly without binding. I am thinking you are experiencing a similar situation. Maybe not but that's my first whack at it.

But if it's any consolation it looks pretty sweet.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

43 minutes ago, PurpleFloyd said:

Need a rack and pinion or lateral stabilizer. In the cabinet business we run into this when drawers get extra wide.everything can be built perfectly square but the drawers will still bind. It takes a rack and pinion to synchronize the right and left side to make them operate properly without binding. I am thinking you are experiencing a similar situation. Maybe not but that's my first whack at it.

But if it's any consolation it looks pretty sweet.

Thank you!  That at least gives me something to research.  I'm hoping to not have to scrap the whole thing.  There's over $200 in aluminum there.  

Do you have any pictures or links you could share that you think may help with making this work?

[Moon Lake Refuge]

We ran into something like this in college with a floating beer pong table on dowel slides.  Found this same issue that we couldn't lower it perfectly level.  Ended up going with a pulley system from the ceiling to get equal drop on each corner. Ours was a bit lighter than your bed probably but it worked for us.  Definitely didn't look super fancy with the ropes though.

otherwise if you widen out the bracket so you can fit some kind of plastic or pvc spacer that may help. How does it lock into place? A pin at each corner? Some kind of light weight spring on each corner would probably even keep enough tension from binding.  Light enough to hold it up but still easy to grab it in the middle and pull it down.

 

Better yet, does the square on the bed have to even be a full square?  Could you cut the back side off and just have a U going around your verticals channel?  One less side to bind on and I would imagine it would be tight enough when secured to not go anywhere?  That's all I got, probably a stretch.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Moon Lake Refuge

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

7 minutes ago, Moon Lake Refuge said:

We ran into something like this in college with a floating beer pong table on dowel slides.  Found this same issue that we couldn't lower it perfectly level.  Ended up going with a pulley system from the ceiling to get equal drop on each corner. Ours was a bit lighter than your bed probably but it worked for us.  Definitely didn't look super fancy with the ropes though.

Anytime someone is dedicated to the craft of beer pong to that extent, I can appreciate it! 

 

[Moon Lake Refuge]

Maybe an idea for the next house? A table outside the shack that folds down on the ice?  You could find a way to maybe reuse your bunk bed! . To soon? 

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

23 minutes ago, Moon Lake Refuge said:

otherwise if you widen out the bracket so you can fit some kind of plastic or pvc spacer that may help. How does it lock into place? A pin at each corner? Some kind of light weight spring on each corner would probably even keep enough tension from binding.  Light enough to hold it up but still easy to grab it in the middle and pull it down.

Better yet, does the square on the bed have to even be a full square?  Could you cut the back side off and just have a U going around your verticals channel?  One less side to bind on and I would imagine it would be tight enough when secured to not go anywhere?  That's all I got, probably a stretch.

You might be on to something with the "U" to relieve tension.  I would think we could even add a spacer in there to open it up further.

 I'm going to go back and re-measure everything in the morning.  Everything was built perfectly square, and moved well.  The only thing that changed is mounting it on the wall, so obviously there is an oversight somewhere.  

 

[Moon Lake Refuge]

Your issue may actually be to much slack for it to move.  A spacer may be all it takes to keep it tight enough to stay square and not bind.

[vtx1029]

Add 4 lift struts and lengthen the slide part. If the load is balanced on each post it should work as intended 

[YettiStyle]

14 hours ago, PurpleFloyd said:

Need a rack and pinion or lateral stabilizer. In the cabinet business we run into this when drawers get extra wide.everything can be built perfectly square but the drawers will still bind. It takes a rack and pinion to synchronize the right and left side to make them operate properly without binding. I am thinking you are experiencing a similar situation. Maybe not but that's my first whack at it.

But if it's any consolation it looks pretty sweet.

I think Floyd has a great idea here that could be a quick fix if you can find a way to make the R&P system or find someone who makes them.  Essentially I would think you would need 3 different R&P systems.  1 for the right side, 1 for the left side, and one for the back.  Depending on how sturdy the system is you might be able to get away with just one of the side and the back.  Each system would include 2 racks and 2 pinions.  The racks would mount vertically down the wall supports.  The pinions would be on each side of a rod that would be mounted underneath your bed using some sort of bearings so they can rotate.  Since each side of is tied together essentially with the rod that the pinions are on you should end up with a level raising/lowering system. 

[PurpleFloyd]

15 hours ago, Lip_Ripper Guy said:

Thank you!  That at least gives me something to research.  I'm hoping to not have to scrap the whole thing.  There's over $200 in aluminum there.  

Do you have any pictures or links you could share that you think may help with making this work?

One other thing that comes to mind is the rack and pinion on a CNC router. It is used to keep the gantry from binding. Here is a link to show you what I am talking about. Basically what they do is use a gear to make sure rack post is traveling at precisely the same speed. 

https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/rack-and-pinion-drive?taxon_id=38

 

[magicstix]

Just got done looking through your builds for this year. As usual you never disappoint!! Awesome builds!! I'd like to say thanks also for taking the time to share this with us.

Your bed problem: I'm thinking the opposite as vtx1029 and I think you need to shorten the slides so there's less surface area and less friction area. Or you could put some plastic slides between tubes to help eliminate friction.

 

Great Build!!!

[vtx1029]

7 hours ago, PurpleFloyd said:

One other thing that comes to mind is the rack and pinion on a CNC router. It is used to keep the gantry from binding. Here is a link to show you what I am talking about. Basically what they do is use a gear to make sure rack post is traveling at precisely the same speed. 

https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/rack-and-pinion-drive?taxon_id=38

 

McMaster Carr sells this rack fairly cheap. It's not a bad idea I use rack on my CNC router also and it works great.

 

another idea I had for a bed lift would be to add a torsion garage door spring. Let me noodle this thinking this could work...

Edited August 29, 2016 by vtx1029

[vtx1029]

Ok I think I figured it out. I know you wanted it simple but this should work great and possibly added to your current design. 

Having heavy springs at the top of the cables will balance out any out of square motion to prevent it from jamming up. 

You may have to add 2 more spools per side on the torsion spring. 

http://m.hsolist.com/itm/Spring-System-for-Ramp-Door-/260300118119?hash=item3c9b189867%3Am%3AmUsSuCvDfr4wrAwMvRv9Z6g&_trkparms=pageci%3A887c42e0-6d8d-11e6-b2a8-74dbd1803480%7Cparentrq%3Ad40e769d1560a2a5a4af7b46fffaaf25%7Ciid%3A3

Edited August 29, 2016 by vtx1029

[papadarv]

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 8:18 PM, Lip_Ripper Guy said:

Well, the DIY lift bed I had high hopes for is a flop (so far).  Everything was built perfectly, and measures perfectly (within 1/32" all around) after it was installed, but it binds like a mother.  Pretty much what a lot of people thought would happen.  Anyone have ideas?

The vertical wall supports are 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/8 square, the sliders are 6" tall, and 2" x 2" x 3/16", so there is a fair amount of clearance all the way around.  It just doesn't lift evenly without binding.  Might be headed for the scrap bin!

 

Its binding because you can't lift all 4 sliders at the same raise rate. You need mechanism that will do that. Think of the old boat lift that used a cable at each corner to lift the platform. This is a crude drawing using a shaft in the bottom center of the bed with 4 cables/ropes attached to the shaft (with crank) through a pulley (white circles) attached at the sliders and than up to the top of each support. When you turn the shaft, all 4 corners will rise at the exact same rate which will eliminate the binding. May also help lifting when you add a bed base, foam and bedding which may add a bit of weight. You just need to figure out the best design to locate the shaft. On the ceiling, wall, as shown, or at the below bench frame. Than run cables through a series of pulleys to the bed frame sliders. Simple, inexpensive, easy to do and effective.

 

[PurpleFloyd]

PD that makes sense. 

[CaptainMusky]

Similar to what others have said it is binding because you cannot raise/lower all 4 corners at the same rate without mechanical assistance.

Check out the "racor heavy lift" storage system which raises a platform similar to how you want to raise this bed. Granted the way this is designed you would lose headroom BUT I think if you designed something in reverse of this where the shaft/etc is on the underside of the bed it would act like you are pulling the ceiling down instead of the bed up it would work. You could integrate this to the underside of the bed frame pretty easy I think since you seem pretty sharp with other R&D stuff. Basically just invert what you see in the images you find and it should work. Pretty simple too.

[Moon Lake Refuge]

x2 for PD.  Looks to be the easiest and cheapest way so far if it works. 

Cut a channel up the inside of the wall mounted bar and you could even potentially hide your vertical cable inside the slide bar.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Moon Lake Refuge

[papadarv]

Thought about the lift cable overnight. I would put the accumulation shaft in the bunk against the wall. Get a 12 VDC motor with enough torque to drive the shaft chain or gear driven. Run 1/4" x 1" cable guide hat sections up the wall by or behind each of the vertical support beams and along the ceiling to the opposite side. (paint same color of wall to blend into your outstanding work). You could put cable accumulation pulleys to collect the cable on each end of the shaft. (same as on you garage door opener shaft)  Cut 5/16" slots inside the vertical shaft the length of the bed movement. Attach a lift bolt to each of the 4 sliders protruding through the slot. Run cables inside the vertical tubing attached to the lift bolt. Than I would add a 2 button remote control to drive the motor. Bit more work but much cleaner look.

You can get a 2 button remote of high quality workmanship and component out of China for under $15. They make really good quality stuff for little money. Pic of the unit that would drive the power relay for the motor.

I used this remote setup in my Bi Directional Eye Cam on my Vexilar FishPhone. Works great out to 100 ft.

http://vid358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/darvbethke/BiDiEyePan%20A1sm.mp4

 

[PurpleFloyd]

Something to consider for future builds might be to use round tubing instead of square and to incorporate bearings into it to reduce binding and friction. 

http://m.northerntool.com/products/shop~tools~product_200325038_200325038?hotline=false&cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Power Tools %26gt%3B Woodworking&utm_campaign=Saw Trax&utm_content=334016&gclid=CjwKEAjwuo--BRDDws3x65LL7h8SJABEDuFRsF2iEbBlvWg62G2zVj7G7QwFAfu5fMkWeHBarV_4UhoCN4zw_wcB

That link shows a panel saw attachment similar to one I had years ago that used a carriage and plastic bearings to glide down the tube. I believe they upgraded to ball bearings at some point as well but just food for thought on other options. I understand you are looking to retain what you have already built.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

You guys have been busy!  I can't tell you how much I am appreciative of all the suggestions!  Thank you!

[Hawg]

Mines easier, just bump the binding corner with your fist. That would only be once a day so it can't be worth all this. You are obsessed (but it looks great and makes for good reading) 

[BartmanMN]

Have you put the plywood and mattress on it yet and then tried lifting it?  Maybe that is enough weight to keep everything squared up and not twisting at all?  Worth a shot before adding more work for yourself.

 

[vtx1029]

How thick of hdpe did you use 1/4"? Do you think 1/8 would be stiff enough? 

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

8 hours ago, Hawg said:

Mines easier, just bump the binding corner with your fist. That would only be once a day so it can't be worth all this. You are obsessed (but it looks great and makes for good reading) 

This binds well beyond bumping it  My dad and I were both hanging on it without it budging!  

6 hours ago, BartmanMN said:

Have you put the plywood and mattress on it yet and then tried lifting it?  Maybe that is enough weight to keep everything squared up and not twisting at all?  Worth a shot before adding more work for yourself.

 

Not yet.  It'll go on in the next few days and then we'll see what happens.  I don't think it'll change it much.  

3 minutes ago, vtx1029 said:

How thick of hdpe did you use 1/4"? Do you think 1/8 would be stiff enough? 

Not a chance.  It expands and contracts substantially with temperature fluctuations.  

[papadarv]

13 minutes ago, Lip_Ripper Guy said:

This binds well beyond bumping it  My dad and I were both hanging on it without it budging!  

Not yet.  It'll go on in the next few days and then we'll see what happens.  I don't think it'll change it much.  

Not a chance.  It expands and contracts substantially with temperature fluctuations.  

The harder you push or pull the tighter the bind. If two people one at each end carefully lift or lower keeping it exactly level and moving the bed at the same exact speed it will easily slide. As you said your tolerances are very tight at 1/32" not a lot of wiggle room.

Twist is not the issue, each of the slides must remain completely square to each other to avoid the bind. The extra weight will only make it more difficult to raise and lower by hand.

Sounds like you might go with the shaft / cable idea.

Use 1/8 galvanized 7 x 19 steel cable. Very flexible, 1700# breaking strength 350# load strength no stretch or shrink over time.

Fleet Farm sells good quality pulleys many sizes, Fastenal, Menards and Home depot sell cable,  1" Conduit for shaft on some pillow block bearings. Easiest to get bearings, chain, sprockets and gear drives off Amazon.