2017 Fish House Build

[YettiStyle]

1 hour ago, tisosys11 said:

Are you going to test the aluminum/rubber floor sandwich with heat before putting everything in place?  I would think there might be chance for hot spots where the pex is running.

I would at least crank the system up before you fasten the rubber floor down to prevent big ripples from forming in the rubber whenever the heater is on.  Let it run for a couple hours with the rubber laid down to make sure it is fully expanded then fasten it down with whatever you're using.

 

I was noticing that all you are supporting the aluminum with is the pink foam board.  Do you really think that is enough to support everything?  Just my opinion but that seems like it would be pretty spongy and will compress over time, specially since the top layer is just aluminum and not plywood. 

 

[BartmanMN]

No need for slippers in this rig.

[Moon Lake Refuge]

On 7/12/2016 at 0:20 PM, Boar said:

1 hour ago, YettiStyle said:

I would at least crank the system up before you fasten the rubber floor down to prevent big ripples from forming in the rubber whenever the heater is on.  Let it run for a couple hours with the rubber laid down to make sure it is fully expanded then fasten it down with whatever you're using.

 

I was noticing that all you are supporting the aluminum with is the pink foam board.  Do you really think that is enough to support everything?  Just my opinion but that seems like it would be pretty spongy and will compress over time, specially since the top layer is just aluminum and not plywood. 

 

I dont know, that stuff is decently solid, and the aluminum would disburse the weight pretty well, also the rubber should help with any sharper dents.

[YettiStyle]

35 minutes ago, Moon Lake Refuge said:

 

I get that there will be some good weight dispersion with the aluminum but I would still think that over time you will get a good amount of dents and the pink foam underneath will start to crush, specially in high traffic areas.  The most vulnerable area I can see is around every catch cover.  That is a very high traffic area with little support underneath and an "edge" between the catch cover and foam where the foam will try and expand into when subject to pressure.  Plus if someone has a fish on and has someone else helping land a fish more than likely you will be toe-to-toe which will double the average persons PSI from 16lbs to 32lbs.  Over time I think you will have problems with all the foam around the holes losing its integrity and the top layer will sink in areas. 

 

I think it could be an easy remedy by just adding some furring strips in some key areas like around the holes.  I get you will lose some R-value horizontally but I shouldn't be too big of a deal since you will still have the spray foam underneath forcing the majority of your heat upwards.  One foreseeable problem with the furring strips is you may get some creases in the aluminum along the furring strip's edges if the foam starts giving way underneath but the rubber should hide it and its better than having big divots in your floor. 

[Moon Lake Refuge]

1 minute ago, YettiStyle said:

I get that there will be some good weight dispersion with the aluminum but I would still think that over time you will get a good amount of dents and the pink foam underneath will start to crush, specially in high traffic areas.  The most vulnerable area I can see is around every catch cover.  That is a very high traffic area with little support underneath and an "edge" between the catch cover and foam where the foam will try and expand into when subject to pressure.  Plus if someone has a fish on and has someone else helping land a fish more than likely you will be toe-to-toe which will double the average persons PSI from 16lbs to 32lbs.  Over time I think you will have problems with all the foam around the holes losing its integrity and the top layer will sink in areas. 

 

I think it could be an easy remedy by just adding some furring strips in some key areas like around the holes.  I get you will lose some R-value horizontally but I shouldn't be too big of a deal since you will still have the spray foam underneath forcing the majority of your heat upwards.  One foreseeable problem with the furring strips is you may get some creases in the aluminum along the furring strip's edges if the foam starts giving way underneath but the rubber should hide it and its better than having big divots in your floor. 

Could potentially just put furring strips in place of the bottom layer of foam and have the top layer remain.  Little more support without the creases on the top.  

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

7 hours ago, tisosys11 said:

Are you going to test the aluminum/rubber floor sandwich with heat before putting everything in place?  I would think there might be chance for hot spots where the pex is running.

I'm not testing it aside from pressure testing.  There may be hot spots, but that is the nature of heating a small space, especially when weight is a concern.  The aluminum transfer plates will help disperse the heat, as will having an aluminum floor.    

5 hours ago, YettiStyle said:

I would at least crank the system up before you fasten the rubber floor down to prevent big ripples from forming in the rubber whenever the heater is on.  Let it run for a couple hours with the rubber laid down to make sure it is fully expanded then fasten it down with whatever you're using.

 

I was noticing that all you are supporting the aluminum with is the pink foam board.  Do you really think that is enough to support everything?  Just my opinion but that seems like it would be pretty spongy and will compress over time, specially since the top layer is just aluminum and not plywood. 

 

I'll have the rubber sitting in the sun for a couple hours before I put it in, and it'll be stretched pretty tight when I put it down.  

The pink foam isn't your normal stuff you'd think of.  This is a high density, and as little to no compression when stepping on it.  The top layer of aluminum is .063", and there is no flex or bounce at all to the floor.  

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

3 hours ago, YettiStyle said:

I get that there will be some good weight dispersion with the aluminum but I would still think that over time you will get a good amount of dents and the pink foam underneath will start to crush, specially in high traffic areas.  The most vulnerable area I can see is around every catch cover.  That is a very high traffic area with little support underneath and an "edge" between the catch cover and foam where the foam will try and expand into when subject to pressure.  Plus if someone has a fish on and has someone else helping land a fish more than likely you will be toe-to-toe which will double the average persons PSI from 16lbs to 32lbs.  Over time I think you will have problems with all the foam around the holes losing its integrity and the top layer will sink in areas. 

 

The .063" aluminum isn't going to dent.  If this were a toy hauler, I'd do something different, but the most this will see is some people, a generator, and an ice auger.  

In order to double the PSI, you'd have to stand on top of your buddies feet while landing a fish.  I don't know about other fish houses, but that's not happening in mine! 

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

The aluminum floor is done.  I didn't quite get to the rubber, so that'll be for tomorrow.

 

[smurfy]

wow! lookni good!!!!!!!!!!! who is gonna spill the first beer in it??????

[YettiStyle]

I used the same foam in my shack's floor as well and it does have a compressive strength of 15psi.  The only thing about it is that there is no memory, once it compresses it stays that way.  It may not flatten right away but after 100, 1000, 10000 steps around the vulnerable areas that foam will slowly loose integrity and compress.  I will agree that if you stand in the middle of the floor you will definitely have enough surface area dispersion to support weight without it compressing.  The issue you will have is around all the edges like around the catch covers, door, or in front of your benches.  These areas are the places where your aluminum will bend. 

Based on your pictures it looks like your catch covers are only supported by the foam and aluminum and will be fastened to the aluminum?  Most likely someone will walk across one of the catch covers with the cover still installed.  So now instead of having all that uniform surface area supporting that weigh you are relying on just the lip of that catch cover and the 3/4" of foam underneath it to support your weight.  And even more likely, you won't step directly in the middle of the cover so now all your weight it focused on only half the catch cover's lip (imagine a lever/seesaw).

Not trying to tell you what to do with your shack but I'm just trying to save you some time/headache down the road.  You would be out nothing to stick a small block every 90 degrees around the edge (4 per holes).  You wouldn't even need to move the aluminum that you have down, just take out the catch covers, carve out the foam, and slide the blocks in. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by YettiStyle

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

50 minutes ago, YettiStyle said:

I used the same foam in my shack's floor as well and it does have a compressive strength of 15psi.  The only thing about it is that there is no memory, once it compresses it stays that way.  It may not flatten right away but after 100, 1000, 10000 steps around the vulnerable areas that foam will slowly loose integrity and compress.  I will agree that if you stand in the middle of the floor you will definitely have enough surface area dispersion to support weight without it compressing.  The issue you will have is around all the edges like around the catch covers, door, or in front of your benches.  These areas are the places where your aluminum will bend. 

Based on your pictures it looks like your catch covers are only supported by the foam and aluminum and will be fastened to the aluminum?  Most likely someone will walk across one of the catch covers with the cover still installed.  So now instead of having all that uniform surface area supporting that weigh you are relying on just the lip of that catch cover and the 3/4" of foam underneath it to support your weight.  And even more likely, you won't step directly in the middle of the cover so now all your weight it focused on only half the catch cover's lip (imagine a lever/seesaw).

Not trying to tell you what to do with your shack but I'm just trying to save you some time/headache down the road.  You would be out nothing to stick a small block every 90 degrees around the edge (4 per holes).  You wouldn't even need to move the aluminum that you have down, just take out the catch covers, carve out the foam, and slide the blocks in. 

This is the 25psi, Foamular 250.

[slammer]

Cool stuff.  Cant wait for the cold to hear how it performs.  I must have missed it.  What kind of heat source are you using for floor heat?

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

13 hours ago, slammer said:

Cool stuff.  Cant wait for the cold to hear how it performs.  I must have missed it.  What kind of heat source are you using for floor heat?

6 gallon LP/electric water heater.

The rubber floor is now in place.  It is going to make a great floor, but I'm shocked at how much it expands/contracts with the temperature changes.  Sunday morning when I was cutting it, in the span of about 20 minutes it expanded by over 3/4" when the sun hit it.   

I closed up the house yesterday to get it good and hot and have the rubber expand, and then screwed everything down at the hole covers, and the perimeter where the screws will be hidden under cabinets/bunks.  It sucked working in a 100 degree fish house, but installing it with the rubber expanded should keep everything nice and tight in the winter when the in floor heat pushes the floor temps up.    

My wiring, which was previously nice and neat, has become a mess.  The hot temps caused the adhesive on the zip tie holders to soften, which then caused all the wires to fall down.  Rather than chase my tail and fix it 2 or 3 times before spray foam, I'm going to get it all tidied up right before.

The bathroom wall is built and will get installed tonight, and then I'll start cabinets tomorrow.  Wiring should be finished up on the 24' this weekend, and then we'll be spray foaming all 3 houses at the same time.   

[RiverChuckNorris]

Moving right along and looking great LRG! 

[randerson]

Looking good, Whats the hole in the siding for under the window??

[perchking]

Well that's an easy answer, its easy access to ice cold beer while on the ice...

 

 

[Hawg]

randerson, that's the basement window. LRG, you are obsessed! Looks great, you never disappoint us!

Edited July 19, 2016 by Hawg

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

16 hours ago, randerson said:

Looking good, Whats the hole in the siding for under the window??

It is an opening for the water heater.

[BartmanMN]

7 minutes ago, Lip_Ripper Guy said:

It is an opening for the water heater.

And I thought it was a lookout window for the dog.

[Datman7890]

Did you put any consideration into a tankless water heater for the radiant heat? According to specs the 6 gallon heater recovers 10.1 gallons an hour. Best case scenario that calculation is figuring 50 degree inlet water and 130 degree set point. That only comes out to around 7k btus or a 60% efficiency. I would have to think the tankless with the power vents do much better then that and they come at 55k btus. They also throttle the gas valve to keep the output temp correct therefor only burning the fuel you need to burn. 

Just thinking out loud here and seeing if you had any negatives about that route. 

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

2 hours ago, Datman7890 said:

Did you put any consideration into a tankless water heater for the radiant heat? According to specs the 6 gallon heater recovers 10.1 gallons an hour. Best case scenario that calculation is figuring 50 degree inlet water and 130 degree set point. That only comes out to around 7k btus or a 60% efficiency. I would have to think the tankless with the power vents do much better then that and they come at 55k btus. They also throttle the gas valve to keep the output temp correct therefor only burning the fuel you need to burn. 

Just thinking out loud here and seeing if you had any negatives about that route. 

Absolutely...looked into it big time, and it was my original plan.  In summary, after researching and talking with Suburban and Atwood, the tankless RV style won't work at this time.  They can only flow something like 1.8gpm before the water moves faster than they can recover.  It's really hard (next to impossible) to find a circulator pump that would flow that slow, while having sufficient pressure to move water through the lines.  Don't quote me on the numbers, but that was the gist of it.

Edit to add details from Suburban on the IW60:

"The module board in the IW60 will decide based off from inlet water temp, flow rate/demand and outlet water temp if it needs to run on 2 or 5 burners.  Something to keep in mind, the IW60 will perform properly between .5 to 1.5 gallon per minute.  Less than .5 gallons is not enough demand on the system and over 1.5 gallon per minute is too much demand to keep up with producing 120 degree water, it will still continue to heat, just won’t be able to produce/maintain that temp.  Hope this info helps.  Have a great day."

Also looked into a traditional house style tankless, but the venting won't readily allow for it.     

The 6 gallon will recover 17.8gph (gas & electric) or 10gph (gas only), up to a 130 degree set point.  I think I'll be somewhere closer to 110 degrees, but it's going to be trial and error at first.  This whole in floor heat is one big trial and error project!   

Edited July 21, 2016 by Lip_Ripper Guy

[Datman7890]

I figured the flow rate might pose issue but if the lines only hold a gallon it would probably be recieving 60-70 degree glycol and would only have to rise 40-50 degrees. But without performance sheets I guess that really adds a whole bunch more to already uncharted territory. Im excited to see how the tank heater works. Will you be using a small expansion tank?

 

I just wonder with the small system even at a higher flow rate if it would work. Theoretically the btus are there. Maybe initially you'd only 70 degree outlet temp but after running through the system 4 times in a minute the rise would make it to 120.. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Datman7890

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

10 hours ago, Datman7890 said:

I figured the flow rate might pose issue but if the lines only hold a gallon it would probably be recieving 60-70 degree glycol and would only have to rise 40-50 degrees. But without performance sheets I guess that really adds a whole bunch more to already uncharted territory. Im excited to see how the tank heater works. Will you be using a small expansion tank?

 

I just wonder with the small system even at a higher flow rate if it would work. Theoretically the btus are there. Maybe initially you'd only 70 degree outlet temp but after running through the system 4 times in a minute the rise would make it to 120.. 

Yes, I have a small 2.2 gallon expansion tank.  

Once the technology gets a little bit better on the RV tankless, they'll definitely be the way to go.  The Suburban IW60 is on the right track, and has a number of cool features.  

An additional concern I had that was also raised by one of the companies was short cycling the water heater (once things get up to temp).  They are designed for inlet temps of 50-70 degrees, and to run for long periods of time (30+ seconds).  If the incoming water is 80-110 degrees, and needs to go to 120 or 130, its going to fire for only a very short period (1-5 seconds), very frequently.  And then you are still firing 25-30kbtu burner(s), so my feeling is that it would create a very inefficient system, and also one that could be very short lived.  

The only drawback I could think of with the 6 gallon is the additional weight of the liquid.  In the grand scheme of things, 50 pounds doesn't mean all that much.  It is a much "dumber" system, since you don't have a computer trying to calculate firing the burner on the fly.    

[Datman7890]

Yes the cycling would pose an issue. Thanks for sharing your research on it. Guess just have to stick to the logic of keep it simple stupid

[papadarv]

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 9:18 AM, Lip_Ripper Guy said:

I don't think there is really anything to patent.  It is widely done in home construction, and I just modified this slightly to work in a fish house.  The pump is a 12 volt circulation pump.  Draw is 1.3 amps.  

Don't discount the ability to patent. If the idea has never been done or different from another concept in a Wheel House, it is quite patentable even if it looks similar to something else. If it were me I would do a Provisional Patent. Allows you to use the words Patent Pending. You patent the concept not the detailed design. The provisional patent includes almost everything that is in a qualified patent except "Claims". Look at the Vex SonarPhone, FishPhone, Clam's hub and drill plate. All of these state Patent Pending. Marcum had the first patented WiFi fish camera, Eskimo had the first patented hub and all of these ideas are much closer related.

The Provisional patent gives you one year to test the waters to see if anyone is interested or if so desired you to build and sell. You need to get a formal patent by the end of a year as the provisional goes away in 12 months. Cost is $265.00 if you do the work yourself or on line you can find provisional patent people that will do the patent for around $500.

This is my inexpensive prototype video link of a provision patent I titled the "Down-and-Out-Flip. I used some poly coated cotton for fabric and electrical conduit for the frame. I do have one quite interested manufacture and one reviewing a business plan to see if they think it is worth anything. I went very cheap as if it did not work I would just trash it and move on. Found it works very well.

http://vid358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/darvbethke/DaO 4-24 SM webop.mp4

and a couple of pics on Ottertail lake this past winter.

Edited July 23, 2016 by papadarv