conceal/carry?

[leechlake]

Here's the situation.  My sister in law is getting divorced and either she feels uncomfortable or threatened by the situation OR my in laws have blown it out of proportion because they love her.  Maybe that's irrelevant.  The told me that both my sister in law and mother in law were going to get carry permits.  I think they are doing it together as a bonding experience but my MIL wants to be able to carry too.  I asked them some questions at Thanksgiving and they have no clue regarding guns or anything related to the carry laws.  They just think that having a gun in their purse will keep them safe.  I will say that, from my opinion, this is a bad idea for them.  In my opinion, even an experienced gun user would have difficulties when the you know what hit the fan and the gun was drawn.   I think other self defense tactics should be explored from when away from home and if it makes them feel good a shotgun with a short barrel could be around the house.   At the very least, if they decide to carry and want to be safe they should also take a self defense class to rely on also.  If they want to be prepared then they should go all out to learn more than just shooting at someone.

Those are my opinions, right or wrong, but I'd appreciate if others could shed some light on what they think based on the situation.   Thanks.

Edited November 28, 2015 by leechlake

[Boar]

Just saw this on the side bar, peek my curiosity. i think what there looking at is a bad idea, just having a gun in their purse could make a bad situation go way bad real quick. the best defense is a good offence. many other classes out ther on how to stay safe, beaware of ones enviroment, buddy system. have security walk them to their car if its night and isolated. approach ones vhicle from the rear and glance in the back seat before getting in. self defence classes designed to imobilize to get away. some bretty bad a$$ pepper spray out there. mmany other things out there and ways to stay safe. I do enjoy the comfort of having in home protectection. but out itnt he world, again the best defense is a good offense. my wife would walk to the car with the car key rolled up in her fist, and protruding thru her fist in a spike like manor. guns are awsome to own and use but for them your right in trying to persuade them into other areas first. Im sure their not in detroit mi. Ive considerd getting mine, but cant really figure out why I would need it. 

[Ufatz]

Bad idea. Do what you can to talk them out of it.  If they are not comfortable handling firearms,  of any kind, sticking a pistol in their purse is more of a danger to them than it is protection. If they INSIST make sure they go to a thorough carry class and then make sure they do a few hundred rounds first couple weeks and then shoot another couple of dozen every month or so.

Carrying a loaded firearm on your person puts a tremendous responsibility on you. There are myriad ways YOU can end up being prosecuted if things don't go right and you use that weapon in an ill advised manner.

Pepper spray, one of those small boat air horns or just screaming at the top of your lungs can be an effective deterrent to a bad guy.

[leechlake]

I agree and want as much info as possible.  I know this.  I've only had buck fever once and it was on an elk.  I've always noticed that when I see a deer I actually think about it later and I get into a sort of "fog" like state.  Things just happen, I become super focused, and because of that generally do what's needed to kill the deer automatically.  I used to think I was "super hunter" but it's actually years of hunting and experience which has translated into muscle memory.

The one time I had the buck fever wasn't too long ago and once the adrenaline took over I couldn't control anything, as hard as I tried.  I always think of that experience and translate it to a self defense situation and I know the adrenaline would be exponentially higher.

When I think of someone who knows nothing about guns and hasn't experienced a stressful situation and it's a recipe for disaster.  Frankly, I'm also not a big fan of handguns.  They've been glorified as killing machines but are pretty weak especially in the hands of an amateur.  Cops miss bad guys within 10 feet 58% of the shots and they are trained, hows my mother in law going to do, if she even gets the gun out?

Edited November 28, 2015 by leechlake

[RebelSS]

Bad, bad, bad, idea. In a nutshell, I've spent 30 years combined in LE as a licensed deputy.and the security field, I teach gun safety, and I also hold informational classes for  those considering getting a permit. I also shoot WEEKLY and train EVERY day. I've turned down many people for the classes, (Including neighbors) because I feel it would be a far more dangerous situation with them armed.  I'll try to not get really going on my soapbox, as this exact situation drives me wild. Here goes My professional opinion on it: If you are thinking of obtaining a CC Permit, here's what you need: Well taught and educated by a licensed pro on the issues, legalities, and means of carrying a weapon, and I don't mean those 2 hour "quickie" classes. At LEAST an 8 hour classroom setting. Complete understanding of the laws in your state that govern the situation. Realizing that the use of deadly force is warranted ONLY as a last means of defense;, if you can reasonably get away, hide, run, etc, it is NOT warranted. To realize if you take a life, yours just went into turmoil. And, if you hit an innocent bystander.... The civil suits, the investigations, the being in the news spotlight 24/7, the possible retaliation on you, your family, your home, your property.Huge amounts of money for your defense. Possible jail time. Good chance you will lose your CC at that point and never be issued another. To be totally proficient and completely familiar and comfortable  in all ways with the sidearm you intend to use...in the dark, on the ground, in every conceivable situation at every time. Belive me, when the poo goes down, no matter how good you are, it's a WHOLE different story. Be lucky if you can hit the side of a barn when the adrenaline starts blasting and your arm turns to a licorice whip. Been there, done that. And I'm well trained. Imgaine now an untrained citizen....disaster coming down. Carrying in a purse is also worthless. The situation you described very well COULD get someone killed...including innocent bystanders. My suggestion is to get a TRO on the guy, and although I don't believe it always helps much, (Can just pee of the victim more) have her buy a good can of Mace for her purse. Available everywhere.Have her take some training in personal safety for the local PD or whoever offers it, and practice it, and everywhere she goes, be AWARE of your surroundings...every minute.

Well, those are my tips....good luck.

 

Edited November 28, 2015 by RebelSS

[Ufatz]

Good...good...good!  All the above is good. And only take a full days course IF  your going to get into it, just as Rebel says.

And again, let me suggest the little air horns you see in marine stores etc.  About the size of a mace or pepper dispenser but when you hit the button on that thing it makes BIG NOISE and bad guys are like cockroaches...they hate LIGHT and they hate NOISE. That big horn blasting will draw the attention of anybody within a block!

Unless you're in a football stadium!

Edited November 28, 2015 by Ufatz
spelling

[delcecchi]

First of all, everyone concerned needs to really think about the guy involved and whether they really believe he is, well capable isn't exactly the right word, but inclined to use force to solve personal problems, or however one would put it.   Or is this just one of those ploys to exaggerate the situation as part of a settlement/custody negotiation?   Honestly, has the guy ever abused her?  done anything violent and/or egregiously stupid?  Anger problems?  Suicidal?  Does she need to consider moving or going to a shelter? 

Preparing to defend herself from an angry or suicidal ex is, as rebel  and others have pointed out, a difficult, time-consuming process and a real commitment.   Weeks or months of regular training,  I would think, in weapon handling and learning to react in various situations. 

Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't know any of the people and admits it. 

 

[RebelSS]

If all involved are THAT concerned, go make a police report. Not that it will help, but they are then aware of it and may recommend a TRO, which really doesn't help, either, considering the guys frame of mind. If he's that whacko, he may go at any minute...best defense is be as prepared as you can, and make sure all involved, such as friends, etc, are aware of the situation and what he looks like. That's the best I can offer, along with the other good advice given here by others.

[Bobby Bass]

This has nothing to do with Leechlake's comment but something I have noticed in the past few years is people are getting a cc permit because it is made out to be a status thing. Which is a very good reason why they should not be given out. I have a relative who is in the process of getting his cc and I got into a shouting match with him at a soccer game over it. In hindsight it was not one of my finer moments but I guess I really feel strongly about who should have a permit. Used to be you had to prove a need. After my argument I went and looked up the requirements to find out pretty much anyone can get one if you pay the fees and attending some schooling. Spoke to a few of my buddies who told me they had adult children who have gotten cc permits because their friends have them. We have spent many an hour talking about this and I am pretty sure there will be a lot of talk about it here.

[RebelSS]

And you're right, Bobby. It's like anything else nowadays...everyone has one, so rush, rush, rush and go get one too. It's a huge privilege and a lot of training and proper mentality to be able to obtain one. Driving used to be that way. So much dump on TV about guns I wanna barf. Ya, you're gonna be a hero at the Kwikee Mart when that guy sticks a knife in someones face, and you pull the trigger, kill him, and "save" the person. Wrong. You had the chance to retreat, take cover, get out of the situation. YOU'RE now indicted for the killing, no matter what your intention. People need to use their heads and stop relying on TV and the internet for information. OK, I'm done.

[delcecchi]

I am all for the "shall issue" for CCW permits.  For too long it was a "who you know" deal, with politics all over it.  If I am a law abiding citizen with a clean record it should not be up to the government or the police to second guess my judgement as to whether I feel the need to carry a weapon for self defense. 

As to the domestic situation that started this thread, I already expressed my opinion as much as I was able not knowing any of the people or the situation. 

So, what is the law in Minnesota about using a firearm to save someone else threatened with deadly force, i.e. the clerk facing a robber with a knife? 

[RebelSS]

There is no one answer to that, Del. Condensed as possible, application of The Reasonable Man Doctrine must be applied, as does Affirmative Defense Actions, and proof of the Initial Aggressor Rule...and the MPC. (Model Penal Code)

If ya shoot the guy THREATENING the clerk with a knife, YOU are the AGGRESSOR..if even you believed great bodily harm was going to take place. A defense attorney will rip you to shreds stating you did NOT know that person, and could NOT have known their true intentions....even using the Reasonable Man Doctrine beliefs, blah blah. You will be forced to prove to  a jury that you knew unavoidable bodily harm or death would result....sometimes very hard to actually do.

On the other hand, if he's punching holes in that clerk with a knife, yes, by all means, neutralize the threat. BUT...remember, there are bystanders that could be injured...you will most likely still have to prove to a jury your beliefs and intentions, which most likely would obviously rule in your favor. So much comes into play, it's unreal. You must be allowed 48 hrs to "decompress" after a traumatic shooting before being questioned, etc. My advice to anyone, if any of this makes you feel unsure or uncomfortable, it's NOT for you. (Notwithstanding having a sidearm in your house and shooting) My basic rule  for myself is if I'm confronted and I KNOW the guys gonna kill ME, and I have NO escape in any way, he gets blown away...and I carry BIG rounds that I practice WITH, and there's no way he's gonna walk away. Ever.

My personal rule. Not for everyone.  Realize these are all my own personal opinions.

Edited November 28, 2015 by RebelSS

[Tom7227]

It isn't that hard to get a firearm, nor is it hard to learn how to shoot if.  What is very difficult is to learn to know when to use it, and the to have the mental frame of mind to do so in a timely manner.  I doubt that 5% of people who own a hand gun have that mental frame of mind.  The amount of time needed to learn how to become proficient with a firearm and the tactics of when to use it is significant.  The routine and frequent training and practice is needed.  I suspect that few in law enforcement have that level of expertise and they are required to get regular training, and have someone else paying for the ammo.

The folks that the OP mentioned would be better served if they had a can of wasp spray on hand.  It costs $2, can be obtained easily, and no one dies if it is used.

[leechlake]

Thanks guys-

I was fishing around for different views so when I talk to my father in law again I'm prepared.  Even though we are all in agreement them getting carry permits is a bad idea the further information that you all posted will help.  All of us are naive on some subject and may forge ahead on a plan that is a bad one.  They are naive on this issue and I hope to provide information to educate them.  Thank you.

[nofishfisherman]

This has nothing to do with Leechlake's comment but something I have noticed in the past few years is people are getting a cc permit because it is made out to be a status thing. Which is a very good reason why they should not be given out. I have a relative who is in the process of getting his cc and I got into a shouting match with him at a soccer game over it. In hindsight it was not one of my finer moments but I guess I really feel strongly about who should have a permit. Used to be you had to prove a need. After my argument I went and looked up the requirements to find out pretty much anyone can get one if you pay the fees and attending some schooling. Spoke to a few of my buddies who told me they had adult children who have gotten cc permits because their friends have them. We have spent many an hour talking about this and I am pretty sure there will be a lot of talk about it here.

I agree and have seen similar things.  On Facebook I've seen several different friends organizing CC Permit parties.  They get a bunch of their friends together and hire one instructor to run a short class to get them all their permits.  Mostly what I've seen is groups of women doing it. From what I can tell it seems most of these people are getting their permits because its fun girls day out and because all their girlfriends are doing it.  I just can't help but feel like these people really have no idea what responsibility they are truly undertaking or what it really means.  Thankfully I'm sure most of these people get their permits and then go back to living life like they always did without ever actually carrying a weapon or possibly without ever going out to purchase one for themselves. 

I don't oppose the CC permits I just think people need to be more aware of what responsibility really comes with the permit, what training is needed, and what really happens when/if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use it.  Being prepared will require far more than the 1 day CC course.  I've thought about getting my CC permit but honestly the thing that holds me back is that I know the time and training I need to put into it in order to be proficient enough to be effective when it counts.  Right now I don't think i can make that commitment so I'm probably better off not carrying.  

 

[leechlake]

Here's what I told my wife when she wondered why I didn't think they should get the permits.

In the "best" case scenario, a person by definition and the law is doing harm to you and you legally shoot them you still have a firestorm ahead of you.  Look at the recent riots.  In some of those cases the perp was rightfully shot and still there  a re protests, news coverage, investigations where you have to hire an attorney and as was said earlier, how are you going to cope with the fact you killed someone?   For a month you worry you are going to be wrongfully charged and convicted.   Sounds like something to not participate in.

NRA magazines in the front few pages always lists about 8 stories of people using guns to defend themselves legally.  God bless the NRA but I think that does a disservice to people.

[fishadb]

People keep saying cc permit. Minnesota has a carry permit not a conceal and carry permit. You are free to carry however you like.

[RebelSS]

People keep saying cc permit. Minnesota has a carry permit not a conceal and carry permit. You are free to carry however you like.

Either one is correct. That's the standard issuance terminology used. Just like people calling pistols "semi-auto". Duh. Of course they are.

Edited November 30, 2015 by RebelSS

[SHAWSKI]

Holy cow. 

 

I would have never predicted this much push back from hunters and fishermen on this topic. I guess I need to go back to the original post and read a little slower or something? 

 

I understand the idea that the premeditated "defense" measures against an ex or soon to be ex is a bad idea. But I guess I didn't read into the context so deeply in that direction? I guess I just thought to myself maybe this lady is simply preparing for living alone and feeling more safe while living alone.

 

Either way, there are laws built around and through concealed carry, up down, sideways, diagonally... Carry permits are not licenses to kill. They are permits to carry legally, nothing more, and beyond that it is up to the individual to follow the laws. 

I would not discourage a person from pursuing a permit. It is the lawful way to carry if a person should choose to do so.

 

To me it's like saying I don't think you guys should pursue a license to fish. There are so many rules and laws, what if you get too eager and accidentally fish at the wrong time of year, or what if you catch a fish in the slot limit size and it dies? It's too complicated, especially for women. So I think they should just not fish.....  (heavy sarcasm)

 

Criminals simply carry if they choose, no permit and the firearm is likely stolen.  Just like a dirty poacher nets fish at night or spotlights deer with no thought of a license, he laughs at the thought of it.

These are good law abiding citizens interested in pursuing permit options that are carefully structured and offered to them by the state of MN. If they are pursuing the permit, that tells me they are interested in doing things according to the law. If they were interested in illegal activities, they wouldn't care about permits. 

I know young women pursuing permits, I say good for them. I say that because I know they aren't dingbats that are looking for an opportunity to pull that thing out. They are more likely to not carry at most times because of the real world  inconvenience of having to leave the firearm in the car and worry about doing so while they enter stores, schools and other business places that do not allow.  Rather, they are taking the class to get some instruction on not only the firearms but the laws concerning carry and personal defense. They are more likely to use the permit to perhaps legally purchase a hand gun of their own which will likely stay in their home 95% of the time. 

 

I guess I would encourage training and classes BEYOND the permit class. But I would not discourage the permit class itself.  

 

That's my "outstate", red colored county, country living opinion. 

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

Here's the situation.  My sister in law is getting divorced and either she feels uncomfortable or threatened by the situation OR my in laws have blown it out of proportion because they love her.  Maybe that's irrelevant.  The told me that both my sister in law and mother in law were going to get carry permits.  I think they are doing it together as a bonding experience but my MIL wants to be able to carry too.  I asked them some questions at Thanksgiving and they have no clue regarding guns or anything related to the carry laws.  They just think that having a gun in their purse will keep them safe.  I will say that, from my opinion, this is a bad idea for them.  In my opinion, even an experienced gun user would have difficulties when the you know what hit the fan and the gun was drawn.   I think other self defense tactics should be explored from when away from home and if it makes them feel good a shotgun with a short barrel could be around the house.   At the very least, if they decide to carry and want to be safe they should also take a self defense class to rely on also.  If they want to be prepared then they should go all out to learn more than just shooting at someone.

Those are my opinions, right or wrong, but I'd appreciate if others could shed some light on what they think based on the situation.   Thanks.

I would tend to agree with most of the other guys that carrying a handgun isn't the best idea for them, at this point.  Having a gun in the house that they know how to use...absolutely.  Something less than lethal on them at all times....absolutely.  OFP....absolutely.  These are things that can be done almost immediately.  In the meantime, there isn't anything wrong with giving them some experience with handguns to eventually move forward, in case the threat persists.  In 30 days, they could become fairly proficient in shooting a handgun, as well as gaining knowledge and an understanding of the handgun laws.      

[delcecchi]

Here's what I told my wife when she wondered why I didn't think they should get the permits.

In the "best" case scenario, a person by definition and the law is doing harm to you and you legally shoot them you still have a firestorm ahead of you.  Look at the recent riots.  In some of those cases the perp was rightfully shot and still there  a re protests, news coverage, investigations where you have to hire an attorney and as was said earlier, how are you going to cope with the fact you killed someone?   For a month you worry you are going to be wrongfully charged and convicted.   Sounds like something to not participate in.

NRA magazines in the front few pages always lists about 8 stories of people using guns to defend themselves legally.  God bless the NRA but I think that does a disservice to people.

And in your scenario, what would have happened had you not been able to shoot them?     How many women have been killed or seriously injured by abusive spouses or ex-spouses?  The police will come and arrest him afterwards for violating the restraining order, or domestic violence, but the victim is still injured or dead. 

If they really really honestly believe this guy is capable of that kind of violence, then they need to go for it, or else get the heck out of dodge to someplace he can't find them.  What will you tell your wife if the guy kills her sister or even beats the stuffing out of her? 

[Bobby Bass]

So what do you do when the guy takes the gun away from her and shoots her? don't have the stats and I won't pull a number out of the air but a lot of gun owners have their own weapon used against them. This includes police officers..

[delcecchi]

So what do you do when the guy takes the gun away from her and shoots her? don't have the stats and I won't pull a number out of the air but a lot of gun owners have their own weapon used against them. This includes police officers..

I would conclude that he would probably have killed her anyway.  Angry Exes are perfectly capable of killing with their bare hands. 

On the other hand, if she is armed and prepared to use it, maybe he will back off and not gamble that he can get the gun without being shot. She still needs the restraining order and all that as legal protection, and because it might work.  And she needs training and  thought in order to be prepared when or if the situation develops.

When I was a kid one of the neighbor ladies stopped an abusive husband with a kitchen knife.

But I still believe that if the threat of physical violence to a woman in a situation like this is real, she either needs to become unfindable or be ready to protect herself.   Obviously if locking doors and calling the police works, that is far far preferable to defending herself.  Likewise, dispute resolution, counseling, all that. 

What is your suggested alternative?

[leechlake]

I think the solution is to plan and be prepared.  Don't be in a bad spot and prepare with mace and she's already taken some defense classes.

Real story that happened to my family this Summer when I was out of town (maybe it's good I was).

11pm on a Saturday- everyone is gone from my house.  Daughter calls my wife and says she's on her way home.  My wife says she'll be home shortly.  Daughter arrives at house, opens garage door and goes down stairs to watch a movie .  She leaves the garage door open because mom is "right behind" her.  Wife doesn't get home until about 15 minutes later.

Wife gets dropped off and goes to open the garage door with the keypad (not knowing daughter left door open).  Garage door starts up and then closes...wife does the keypad again and same thing happens.  Dogs are in house going nuts.  Suddenly, my wife hears a man's voice in the garage.  It all seemed really confusing to her.  She thought the garage door was just stuck, she wondered if the voice was my older son or a friend.  Finally, she put it together that it was an intruder.

Wife freaks at the guy because the intruder is between her and my daughter in the house.   She tries to call the cops but can't speak well, finally she says "intruder" to 911 and within 15 seconds the old school siren goes off in Hamel.  The guy opens the garage and walks right by my wife and runs away.  Cops show up within 1 minute, 6 cop cars eventually.

Frankly I have no answer to what may have been if my wife had a gun in that situation.  Maybe if she had training she would have been able to speak on the phone.  She couldn't have been armed because she didn't drive and they had been at a restaurant that didn't allow firearms inside so she couldn't have brought one with her.   If I was home I would have walked out into garage and confronted they guy.  I wouldn't have gone downstairs and opened gun safe and picked out a gun.  If I did I keep the ammo in the garage, on purpose, so  no dice there.

No clue what would have happened...glad the guy was scared and left.  BTW, the cops said they knew who he was.  Showed my wife pictures of a mid 40's guy with blond hair.  She told them he was early 20's with black hair.  Either the cops were idiots or they know in stressful situations people recall things wrong.  Never caught him.

[RebelSS]

That's exactly why I repeat over and over and over to train, train, train. Even when you do that, the adrenaline makes you incapable of a lot of things, And leechlake, your comment "Either the cops were idiots or they know in stressful situations people recall things wrong.  Never caught him." is why I said you need to be given 48 hours to decompress, as adrenaline fueled then  situations alter time, perception, recall, etc. Lots of interesting data out there on that. Carrying that weapon is a commitment you may have to shoot  and kill someone, if you don't believe that,then stay the hell away from a CCW. Just a side note...Bobby, a lot of cops do NOT have their gun used against them, just wanted to clarify that.