UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

At a minimum, 60% of the moose killed this year were by wolves.

That number appears to be pretty consistent with other areas that wolves and moose coincide, that number would change if there were other large predators such as Grizzly bears. The real question is are all these animals taken truly healthy, or is some underlying stress factor making them easier prey?

[Musky Buck]

I think as deer numbers fell in the moose range and so many deer are trying to live in city limits of Duluth etc or many cities in the state, that well moose aren't too smart when it comes to escaping danger they certainly can't outrun a wolf, a wolf knows if one is around with their sense of smell, years ago near Warroad grouse hunting and not trying to be stealthy we could walk within 25-50 yards of them quite often, so each cow moose killed by wolves really started knocking the numbers down along with heat and moisture issues and stress from those high temperatures and the tribes want to keep at em yet they want to end wolf season, very bizarre and a different topic, I'd assume at this point they want the moose before their wolf friends eliminate em. There simply isn't enough forage in recent years for the volume of wolves in the state so we're noticing their effects more so now than ever with deer as well. Starting to believe what I typed a few years ago here where are all the moose was the question and my answer was in the feces of wolves. Still think though that heat/moisture are playing a roll and ticks can cause issues so it's a combination and I don't think the wolves can tell which moose has the tick or not, their numbers must be fairly high or deer so low because why are wolves showing up in Douglas county, Parkers Prairie, Bertha, etc. Why is that ? We've had low deer numbers before and wolves didn't show up establishing packs in lets say Ottertail county so their numbers must be up more so than the old normal or they'd scrape by up north not over competing with one another. The places I hear about where moose are doing ok or even growing some the missing element is predation.

[Todd Caswell]

There is alot of good info on the Isle Royal moose/wolf , that study has been going on for a very long time. No suprize that when the wolf numbers are up the moose numbers go down and vice versa.

[leech~~]

There is alot of good info on the Isle Royal moose/wolf , that study has been going on for a very long time. No suprize that when the wolf numbers are up the moose numbers go down and vice versa.

Good chart! So, it looks like we need to take out some more Wolves then!

[Musky Buck]

How big is that Isle ? I don't know how or why Montana is allowed to set their quota at 500 and us at like 237 was it ? You'd think the rocky mountain states would be ideal with all the various kinds of meat for wolves to hunt down. Montana is not happy with what wolves are doing near Yellowstone to the elk population so why wouldn't we be more upset about the moose/deer here likely because wolves kinda got grandfathered in since we've always had some numbers of them. We should have wolves, but they need to be held in check like anything else.

[Todd Caswell]

That big dip in the wolf population around 1982 was caused by a visitor in the park and a dog that wasn't vaccinated for parvo..

[Todd Caswell]

206.7 sq miles.

[brittman]

That number appears to be pretty consistent with other areas that wolves and moose coincide, that number would change if there were other large predators such as Grizzly bears. The real question is are all these animals taken truly healthy, or is some underlying stress factor making them easier prey?

You don't need Grizz. Look at the circle plots again. Blackbear predation of moose calves is #2 cause of death. Blackbears kill young whitetail fawns too.

Calves and fawns primary defense is to lay still. Not good if the bear stumbles on your position.

[B. Amish]

isle royal is surely fascinating. add in the fact that the wolves are all imbred and are probably gonners soon as they are having trouble breeding.

[leech~~]

How big is that Isle ? I don't know how or why Montana is allowed to set their quota at 500 and us at like 237 was it ? You'd think the rocky mountain states would be ideal with all the various kinds of meat for wolves to hunt down. Montana is not happy with what wolves are doing near Yellowstone to the elk population so why wouldn't we be more upset about the moose/deer here likely because wolves kinda got grandfathered in since we've always had some numbers of them. We should have wolves, but they need to be held in check like anything else.

Cause the people of Montana ranch, eat meat and have a "set" on them!

Not like the panize tree huggers like most that live here! And we have way more Wolves then they do!

[SmellEsox]

If it is so simple for some of you folks to draw conclusions, what happened to the NW MN herd? I doubt it was wolves, but you guys must have all the answers because wildlife management is nothing but common sense. If you want to bark about wasted tax dollars, there are far more idiotic uses of our tax dollars. This study is a pittance in cost compared to the other wasted money.

[leech~~]

If it is so simple for some of you folks to draw conclusions, what happened to the NW MN herd? I doubt it was wolves, but you guys must have all the answers because wildlife management is nothing but common sense. If you want to bark about wasted tax dollars, there are far more idiotic uses of our tax dollars. This study is a pittance in cost compared to the other wasted money.

Really, do you want to stack up our "Hunting Dollars" spent each year to what ever they put in to their effort! The issue is everyone is going to lose if the Hunters start to walk away from what they love if there is no reason to be out there. Moose, Wolves and Joe wildlife guy!

[LABS4ME]

You don't think wolves played a part in the NW moose decline? HA! Go up around Waskish... once moose were plentiful, along with deer, the wolves have destroyed both populations... and they were starting to work over livestock including the first confirmed reported wolf kill in a livestock barn in that area. Don't think for a minute the NW mosse herd was not hit hard by wolves.

Good Luck!

Ken

[DrJuice1980]

Until little red riding hood gets taken there is no such thing as the big bad wolf you all are referring to.

Do you all believe in global warming now or is it only a convenience to believe in the natural cycle of things when its in your benefit?

Wolf #s up = Moose #'s down and vice versa. Its mother nature doing her thing. Live with it, or over manage it like you all want to do with everything else (Mille Lacs?) and then complain some more.

....People....

[Musky Buck]

No doubt west of Warroad is the first place I ever heard wolves howling at night and you bet we saw moose tracks and wolf tracks using the same logging road and if the NW is a great place for moose lets capture and move some into that area again, bet the wolves would never find em. If it's this tick thing wouldn't all of em be dead ? It's heat like last July's record setting heat wave, that stresses moose hard and if you have a 500 pounds of dog running you down and circling you all day and night until it's go time is it then the heat killing it or the wolves putting stress on them even further, here's the kicker ? of the future, why are elk not gone in the NW ?

[rockman]

If it is so simple for some of you folks to draw conclusions, what happened to the NW MN herd? I doubt it was wolves, but you guys must have all the answers because wildlife management is nothing but common sense. If you want to bark about wasted tax dollars, there are far more idiotic uses of our tax dollars. This study is a pittance in cost compared to the other wasted money.

The finding(s) for the NW Moose herd was/were primarily a tick borne disease as the main cause of the decrease there. I am talking about the area of NW MN in the Red River Valley region, and the Thief River Falls area. I am not doubting that wolves were/are contributing somewhat to a decrease in moose around the Red Lake area, but that area is different than the Red River Valley in terrain, vegetation, etc. If wolves are the main cause, then why is there still a sizeable, albeit small, herd of Elk in the Grygla area, and up in Kittson County? Yea, it's a different game animal than a moose, but the moose are all but gone in the Valley, so why not the Elk? Simply-tick borne disease hitting the moose population, and not the elk, with the wolves being a secondary cause. Wolves may very well be the main cause of decrease in N Central, and NE MN, but the wolf numbers are higher in those areas than the NW. I do agree with the reply/post about depradation by black bears on young moose, and even deer.

[BuckSutherland]

[Todd Caswell]

Now theres a very good example of why some groups fail to convince people that are on the fence, you will always have the screamers on both side but it's the people in the middle that will determine the outcome. Very foolish on there part and yours for posting it.

[leech~~]

Until little red riding hood gets taken there is no such thing as the big bad wolf you all are referring to.

Do you all believe in global warming now or is it only a convenience to believe in the natural cycle of things when its in your benefit?

Wolf #s up = Moose #'s down and vice versa. Its mother nature doing her thing. Live with it, or over manage it like you all want to do with everything else (Mille Lacs?) and then complain some more.

....People....

DearJuice, don't mistake over management with over utilization ie (Mille Lacs)

[BuckSutherland]

Now theres a very good example of why some groups fail to convince people that are on the fence, you will always have the screamers on both side but it's the people in the middle that will determine the outcome. Very foolish on there part and yours for posting it.

Its part of a legalized hunt. So anyone that participated in the legalized hunt and anyone that celebrated the outcome is a fool?? You dont think people take pictures of pheasants, ducks, geese, elk, deer, bear, moose, fish after they harvest them?? Are they fools too?? Just because you dont like the outcome of the hunt dont make a judgement and call me or them foolish.

You say we need wolves, and they are part of nature blah blah blah, and that its your right to watch them or whatever. If thats what you think fine. I happen to think that they are on the same level as child molesters, rapist and murderers. I think the planet would be better off without them. You would kill a rat if it was in your house. I feel the same way about a wolf in my woods.

[tfran123]

I do see what Todd is saying - in my view the harvest photos are fine (heck, I'd love to shoot one!!) but the anti wolf stuff like shovels, etc. are a bit much for the mainstream. I'm guessing that's the point he's making and I can see that side.

But back on topic, if you have any doubt what wolves can do in a winter like this (deep snow, cold and stressed deer), go visit a deer yard in northern MN next month. It'll change your view on these pretty creatures (wolves that is). My hunch is you will see excess killing just like we saw in 95-96 winters, easy pickings for the wolves actually has them taking more than they need.

I'm quite frankly sick of them, my neighbors have lost many, many calves this spring/summer (dozens) and they are absolutely relentless on the deer in our area - it's quite alarming. Completely out of balance and need more management, in spite of what the greenies say, we have a very strong population. At one point the goal for the state was 1,500, I'd like to get to that number again.

[Todd Caswell]

Glad you finally came clean with us and yourself, the real you really shined through there. Once again through your blurred vision you failed to see the importance of my post,I'll try to dumb this down a bit more. Never once said they were fools for having the hunt, never once said they were fools for taking pictures, (don't tell anyone but I actually agree with the hunt, and that in areas MN's #'s could be raised as well). However who ever the clown was that made the video, he's the fool on how he presented it, obviously he believes wolves out west shouldn't exist and would love to see the quota raised, but he needs support from allot of people and not just the people on his side. So he makes a video with the "I'll show them attitude", problem is it's so appalling to the mainstream really he's hurting his cause.

Now I'm going to dumb it down even more because I know you still don't understand, it's not the pictures either, I love during the hunt photo's, after the hunt photo's, ( it's my part time job) so I always have a camera in hand and waterfowl hunting is my passion. But I don't hate ducks quiet the contrary, I don't hunt ducks because I necessarily like to kill ducks, and I certainly don't have a lisc. plate that reads DUCKKILLER on it.

NOW do you get it?? One last hint it's in the last sentence..

[CaptainMusky]

I agree with Todd, it wasnt the photos of the kills or the fact the hunt was carried out, it was the combination of all of the Anti-wolf bumper stickers that set the tone of the "video" from the very beginning.

I am totally for wolf hunts to help manage the population to reasonable levels. I dont have enough knowledge to know what those levels are or what areas are at risk, but it only makes sense.

It is videos like that one that REALLY get the anti's going and actually convince some of the folks who are 50/50 on the subject to really fall on the "wrong" side of your argument.

TFan, I am curious what part of the state you are referring to. I see reference to "Scott" in your avatar, as in Scott County?

[SmellEsox]

Really, do you want to stack up our "Hunting Dollars" spent each year to what ever they put in to their effort! The issue is everyone is going to lose if the Hunters start to walk away from what they love if there is no reason to be out there. Moose, Wolves and Joe wildlife guy!

Ok. So the solution is just to knock the wolves back to around 1500. So lets do that and not do the moose study and that will solve the issue of declining moose? What if it doesn't. Then what?

I'm not against throttling back the wolf population. In fact I wish we would. But to not continue to study the moose is just dumb IMO. They are a species on the very southern edge of their range. Why wouldn't we continue to study them in light of a possible changing climate. Fisheries is doing the same with Cisco (Tullibee), another species on the southern edge of their range.

[CANOPY SAM]

Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner. The voice of reason has spoken, and I am right behind you Esox!

The wolves are getting a few of the moose. We know that. That's NORMAL! But our moose were dropping by alarming numbers way before wolves were a real threat. It's NOT a waste of money to try and figure out why. End of conversation. Cut, wrap, tape the can!