Flex Fuel Question

[Iambjm]

We just purchased a used 2011 F150 that has flex fuel, my husband was wondering if you can mix E85 and regular fuel. We both wonder if their are pro's or con's to using E85 fuel. I did try a search but couldn't find anything on the subject, maybe I am just searching wrong.

[JOHNBIGDOG]

Found on page 398 of the owners manual:

FFV engine (if equipped)

If your vehicle is flex fuel capable, it is designed to use Fuel Ethanol

(Ed75–Ed85), “Regular” unleaded gasoline or any mixture of the two

fuels.

The thing with E85, its a high octane fuel (resistance to detonation) but low in BTU's. (an engine is a heat pump) So usually a engine running E85 will require more E85 (fuel) to do the same work as that engine runing strait gasoline. (because of the BTU difference) The question is how much more fuel will the engine require when running E85 VS Gas, I can not tell you.

You Can do some expirimenting on your own to see if its cost effective to you.

[BoxMN]

My brother has it too, and did some testing. It will cost you about the same regardless, as the e85 gets about 15% less MPG, but costs about 15% less...

His manual said to try to run the same type, and if you switch to try to run the tank low and then switch, but that it could be run together. That is second hand though, I did not read it.

My two cents is it is not worth it. I personally think running non-oxy and paying the higher price for gas would be worth the extra MPG you do get, but I don't do it except in small engines.

[Dave S]

When I had my Silverado I could only break even on E-85 if there was a 70 cent/gallon spread from regular unleaded.

[Whoaru99]

We just purchased a used 2011 F150 that has flex fuel, my husband was wondering if you can mix E85 and regular fuel. We both wonder if their are pro's or con's to using E85 fuel. I did try a search but couldn't find anything on the subject, maybe I am just searching wrong.

With a flex fuel vehicle you can put in anything that currently comes out of a gasoline pump. E85, if there are blender pumps E50, E30, E20, or plain old E10, or pure gas if that's around. They can all be mixed together in any ratio.

The main con of E85 is mentioned, typically less fuel economy by a meaningful amount. I put some in my flex fuel Dodge on occasion just because, but typically I don't much consider it unless the price is around 20-25% less than regular gas.

E85 has roughly 75% of the energy per gallon as does regular (E10) gas so a good starting point for your milege estimate is -25% of what you get on regular (E10). The fly in that ointment is that E85 may not actually be E85. I believe it can be as low as 70% ethanol and still be labled E85. This would improve the miles per gallon though so that's why I use a somewhat lower estimate to consider the fuel cost vs. mpg.

[Iambjm]

Thanks for all the feedback, we have decided it's not worth the hassle to find stations with E85 if the savings aren't going to be significant. The manual for this vehicle is daunting, over 400 pages. Learning the Sync is even worse.

[fivebucks]

I've had Flex Fuel trucks for the past 3 years and have not used e85 but that is mainly because I like pheasants more than I like corn fields and it is my small way of protesting. But that is another story. I worked with a guy that used e85 and he found he did not save any money using it.

[Whoaru99]

Perhaps it's just semantics, but ethanol blend gas hasn't ever been about saving money. AFAIK, the points have been, primarily, reducing dependence on oil and getting into renewable energy sources.

[nobody05]

The local COOP has it at the gas station for 90 cents less than regular. My mileage went from 13 on regular and 9.5 on e85. I mainly do it just for a feel good factor that the ethanol comes from the plant down the road. I;d rather support them then some oil man.

[delcecchi]

Perhaps it's just semantics, but ethanol blend gas hasn't ever been about saving money. AFAIK, the points have been, primarily, reducing dependence on oil and getting into renewable energy sources.

Actually it was about funneling money to farmers. All the other stuff was just an excuse. Go back and look at when it was established.

[Whoaru99]

The overall point was that it's not about saving money at the pump. Never has been.

The political stuff...well, I'm glad it does help farmers. I know a lot more farmers than oil men.

[96trigger]

I will only run e85 in the summer months and only if the price is 50 cents or greater difference in cost. This summer when gas spiked, it was nice to have an alternative as the price of e85 stayed relatively constant and at one point this summer almost 80 cents cheaper.

[givetoget]

Well I myself was wondering about E85 mileage effects, I guess the info here satisfied my curiosity. Thanks

[Capt. H (Ret.)]

Good reply!!!! You hit it right on the head. I have an 09 Chevrolet Impala and an 11' Silverado both flex fuel engines. I have resisted using ethanol because of the mileage issue. I bought 87 octane until Iowa started "blending" this gas from 84 octane to bring is up to 87 octane and the cost difference between "blended" fuel and E10 is about $.30 per gallon cheaper at the pump for ethanol. I have no idea what they "blend" it with but I suspect it is ethanol. I have kept track of my mileage when using different fuels and I do know that ethanol takes more fuel to go the same number of miles and actually the cost is less with non-blended fuels.

It irritates me that somebody is making a killing at the dinner table (food prices) and it is still costing more to operate my vehicles. My wages haven't gone up to even keep up with inflation or food prices.

Somebody's makeing a killing and it sure isn't the common man.

I am sorry (not really) if I have offended anybody but tough, suck it up.

[Whoaru99]

If you want to focus blame for high food prices blame the cost of crude oil. Last time I looked at the topic, increased oil prices were more than 50% of cost of food price increase. Whereas, increased price attributed to fuel from corn was around 10 %.

10% is 10%, but thats not nearly as high as I think many ethanol detractors would like you to believe.

[rundrave]

I have resisted using ethanol because of the mileage issue. I bought 87 octane until Iowa started "blending" this gas from 84 octane to bring is up to 87 octane and the cost difference between "blended" fuel and E10 is about $.30 per gallon cheaper at the pump for ethanol. I have no idea what they "blend" it with but I suspect it is ethanol.

South Dakota just made this switch also. They just implemented a bunch of changes to the refineries as they no longer produce an unblended 87octane gasoline. In its place, they've begun using an 83/84 octane gasoline, which is blended with 10% ethanol to offer an oxygenated 87.

The 87 blended gasoline will most likely be the least expensive gas, because 83/84 octane is less expensive to refine. In my vehicles it also gets me less MPG.

In this case, they made their product less effective so everyone has to buy more to get the same overall use out of it. For some reason everyone is happy that gas is under $3 again, and they are all fools.

[Whoaru99]

Where do you guys come up with they're using 83/84 octane gas as the base stock to get 87 octane? 9/10 gallon of 83/84 octane gas plus 1/10 gallon of pure ethanol would be about 85 octane.

[Whoaru99]

Federal law doesn't mandate all gas have ethanol in it. Federal law dictates a certain amount of ethanol must be blended in to the gasoline supply.

Currently that amount of ethanol is roughly 14 billion gallons. So, just for sake of discussion and since E10 is the most common blend, there are roughly (or maybe at least) 140 billion gallons of ethanol blended gas produced.

Refiners must blend in a percentage of the 14 billion gallons based on their market share of gasoline sales. So, if Refiner X had 25% market share of gasoline sales, Refiner X would have to blend about 3.5 billion gallons of ethanol into the gasoline the sell. They can still sell pure gas, as long as they use all of their ethanol mandate quantity, and as long as someone wants to buy it.

If a State's law has not expanded upon the Federal laws you can probably still find non-oxygenated regular gas. In MN the expanded provision allows for non-oygenated premium for small engines, collector vehicles, or off road use. All the rest of the automobile gas has ethanol because of State law, not Federal law.

[Capt. H (Ret.)]

This just happened in Iowa and and the suppliers didn't say what it would be blended with. It starts out at 84 octane and I suspect they blend it with 91 octane to bring the 84 up to 87. In Iowa, prior to July 1st you could buy 87 octane that was not blended with ethanol and the regular gas was about .15 cents+- a gallon more than ethanol. I kept track of mileage and fuel consumption records and it was still cheaper, because of the mpg difference, to purchase the regular unleaded without gasahol. You can still purchase "regular" gasoline without gasahol but now it costs you at least .30 cents per gallon more and the mileage/cost just doesn't make it feasible to purchase the fuel for motor vehicle use.

Many ethanol/biodiesel facilities have failed in Iowa partly because product (corn and soybean) suppliers thought they were going to make some money. Some did but many didn't after they invested in facilities that went under.

Most if not all city, county and state vehicles in Iowa use fuel that is blended to a minimum of 10% ethanol (and a lot of state owned vehicles are blended to 85% ethanol) and I think they would be hard pressed to show a cost savings over regular gasoline.

Luckily, I don't drive a lot of miles every year.

[Whoaru99]

Whether 15 cents difference is make or break of course depends on the price of the fuel.

As far as the State using ethanol in their fleet, that likely has nothing to do with trying to save money. It's a political thing. Not that hypocrisy is unheardof in government, but yo must admit it would be a pretty big blunder to mandate broader use of ethanol but then burn pure gas yourself.

[Capt. H (Ret.)]

Ethanol use in Iowa is not mandated for private use. You can purchase non-ethanol fuel at most gas stations but it's going to cost you another .30 cents a gallon. Government use is set by policy because Iowa is an agriculture state. It's cheaper at the pump but not through the engine.

[Whoaru99]

At 30 cents per gallon less it's cheaper through the engine too. Right now that's roughly 10% around here and you don't lose 10% mileage with E10.

I know people claim they lose 10% or even more but I don't buy it. Even if you took out all the ethanol and left behind just 9/10 gallon of pure gas you'd still only be down 10% mileage worst case.

And about the government using it, yeah, that's pretty much same thing I said. You push the product it would be a big blunder if you didn't use what you were pushing.

[pheasantpete]

E-85 has other issues. It is hydroscopic which means it attracts water. Water is corrosive when mixed with ethanol and gasoline. It hastens corrosion of your entire fuel system. It is more prone to vapor lock in the summer which causes your vehicle to not start easy. Designing an engine to run it means it will not run well on either e85 or e10. Jack of all trades, master of none. The engine will try to adjust but it would be better to be just set up for one or the other and not a hybrid for both. Ethanol is terrible for the environment. Top soils are being depleted which means less nutrients in your food and more chemicals applied which get into your water. Everything is being tilled under due to the artificially high price of corn and soy which means less area to support wildlife and less margin land to filter the chemicals before they get into the streams and watershed which means more chemicals in you and your kids. Meanwhile the landed class ie. the few corporate farmers left make a killing somewhat literally.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Your brake fluid is also hydroscopic. Yet people will drive for hundreds of thousands of miles with brake fluid that has had it's boiling point lowered by moisture and not think twice about it.

As far as vapor lock, modern fuel injection has pretty much resolved that issue. Whether your running on gas or ethanol.

The last thought is since ethanol absorbs moisture we have just about eliminated gas line freeze up. A plus in winter whether your using regular unleaded or e85. Yet bottles of "Heet" still fly off the shelf when the temps get low. We still get the occasional "old timer" that thinks their fuel lines are frozen when the car won't start.

[pheasantpete]

Federal law requires a fuel to be oxygenated. It does not specify ethanol. That is left up to the state. CA used to use an oxygenate called MTBE which is very toxic to water suplies. Some states still do. Oxygenates raise the anti-knock properties. Some have tried to use math and faulty logic in this post but fail to understand chemistry. A little oxygenate goes a long way to raise octane(oxygen content of fuel). It is a cheap way to bump up lower quality (less refined gas) to a higher octane. Pure ethanol produces about 20% less energy. Hybrids by their nature are not the most efficient at burning E85 or E10 so you lose either way and may see a 25% reduction in mileage.