Alagnak Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Ok, so most of you remember all the stink about MN guides being pushed to get an USCG OUPV 6 pack license a couple years ago right? Some have gotten it which is great (think the 'Griz') and some have not because it's a royal pain in the ***, time consuming, and expensive- especially if you are a part time/occasional seasonal guide and it's not your bread-n-butter source of income. The coast guard hasn't been actively enforcing it one bit so it's made it easy for some to just forget about it. I remember when Cravaack put this up, I didn't know it was 'modified' just for Mille Lacs. Can someone tell my WHY Mille Lacs would deserve to be exempt from this regulation? Am I missing something here? So theoretically a guide would need the CG license to guide any other body of water (deemed as a navigable water way by USCG) but not if he drops his boat in one of the biggest bodies of water in the state? Obviously it must have to do with the resort/tourism business around ML having a unified voice apparently but it just doesn't make sense to me. http://www.startribune.com/politics/blogs/183400541.html"First-term Minnesota Republican Chip Cravaack, who was defeated for reelection, will get some consolation before leaving the U.S. House next month. A modified version of his Mille Lacs Lake Freedom to Fish Act, which passed the House in August, made it through the Senate Wednesday evening under the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2012. The bill, introduced in May, would restore Minnesota’s authority to permit and inspect commercial fishing guide vessels on Lake Mille Lacs, taking the U.S. Coast Guard out of the picture. In March of 2010, the Coast Guard began requiring fishing guides on Lake Mille Lacs to acquire a federal “six-pack” boating license to continue to do their jobs. Cravaack said the federal certification is difficult to obtain and can cost individual fishing guides up to $2,000 in fees, training, and travel costs. Cravaack, now working out of a basement cubicle, called the Coast Guard requirements a burdensome administrative overreach by the federal government. His bill was carried in the Senate by Minnesota Democrats Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken. It is now headed for President Obama’s desk for signature." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTro Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Yep, that first thing I asked myself...."why just Mille Lacs?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech~~ Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Alagnak said: It is now headed for President Obama’s desk for signature. So the country is about to go over a fiscal cliff and the President of the United States has to spend time reviewing if a few Red necks "like us" in Minnesota take each other fishing for a few bucks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finns Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 That's what happens when both houses agree and pass on a piece of legislation on to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkfloyd4ever Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Not to hijack completely off topic, but my first thought would be that this could somehow impact the native netting? But after reading it again it doesn't seem that it would apply correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Deep Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'd suggest you contact the congressman and ask him why he only included Mille Lacs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alagnak Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Down Deep said: I'd suggest you contact the congressman and ask him why he only included Mille Lacs. Probably since he lost his position and his email from his campaign HSOforum doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried along with phone calls. Maybe he's your good buddy and you can provide me with his current email? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClownColor Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 sounds alright to me. Why not Mille lacs? Did any other people push it for other lakes? Maybe they just have more people "involved?"Anyone know what other lakes in MN require the six pack? Guessing Superior and ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alagnak Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 ClownColor- below is the list. It's pretty much any river system from the head waters down (or up for Red) and any lakes that they run through.I'm just wondering why you think it's ok that all of these waters a guide would need a USCG license but just not Mille Lacs? Are any of these waters more or less dangerous? Or do you just think it's alright that if certain groups of people (resorts?) complain enough they can get special regs just for them to bypass what the USCG has deemed as a safe and professional practice for all fishing guides. This is an assumption of course to say resorts because this way they can hire any high school kid, college kid, or joe-shmo to run their 'launch' boat without oversight and regulation along with any other guiding activities. It usually wouldn't be any reputable guide fighting it because they already have it. The problem is that others that don't can offer services cheaper because they don't have to pay for the schooling/testing to acquire and to keep their license up.Personally, I think it's way too much over reaching by the big gov except for charters on the great lakes. If they are going to blanket these regs though, I would think that consistency would be nice and not to cater to any 'special interests' but it seems our gov is really good at that.NAVIGABLE WATERSOF THE UNITED STATES INMINNESOTA1. BIG FORK RIVERNavigable throughoutincludes:Dora Lake (source)2. BIG STONE LAKENavigable throughout3. BOIS DE SIOUX RIVERNavigable throughout4. INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARYWATERS FLOW WESTTHROUGH COOK, LAKE,ST. LOUIS AND KOOCHICHINGCOUNTIESNavigable throughout,within limits of theUnited States,includes:North Lake (source)Francis BayLittle North LakeLittle Gunflint LakeGunflint LakeMagnetic LakePine RiverPine LakeClove LakeGranite BayGranite RiverGneiss LakeDevils Elbow LakeAmbush LakePrayer LakeMorris LakeMaraboeuf LakeSaganaga LakeJames BaySea Gull RiverRed Rock BayRed Rock LakeSwamp LakeCypress LakeMud BayKnife LakeSouth Arm Knife LakeToe LakePortage LakeKnife RiverSeed LakeMelon LakeCarp LakeBirch LakeSucker LakeNewfound LakeMoose LakeInlet BayBasswood LakeRice BayWind BayHoist BayBack BayJackfish BayPipestone BayBasswood RiverHorse RiverNavigable 1 mile upstreamWednesday BayCrooked LakeThursday BayFriday BaySaturday BaySunday BayIron LakePeterson BayBottle LakeBottle RiverLac La CroixTiger BayBoulder BayBoulder RiveNever Fail BayFish Stake NarrowsLady Boot BayToe LakeSnow BayNorth LakeSouth LakeLoon LakeEast Loon LakeLittle Loon LakeLittle Indian Sioux RiverNavigable 2 milesupstreamLoon RiverLittle Vermilion LakeLittle Vermilion NarrowsSand Point LakeCrane LakeGrassy BayEast BayRollick BayRollick CreekNavigable 1 mileupstreamNorth West BayKing Williams NarrowsHarrison NarrowsStaege BayBrowns BaySwansons BayNamakan NarrowsNamakan LakeHammer BayBlind Pig ChannelDeep SloughRandolph BayJunction BayHoist BayMoose BayMoose RiverNavigable 1 mileupstreamKabetogama LakeOld Dutch BaySullivan BayAsh RiverNavigable 2 milesupstreamBlind Ash BayNebraska BayMud BayDaley BayBowman BayIrwin BayDuck BayTom Cod BayBlack BayMoose BayBlue Fin BayLost BayElks BayLong SloughLost LakeKohler BayBlind Indian NarrowsJohnson BaySquaw NarrowsMica BaySquirrel NarrowsKettle ChannelRainy LakeAnderson BayFinger BayNavigable Waters of the United States in Minnesota (cont) 2Browns BayKempton BayKempton ChannelHitchcock BayFinlander BayMarion BaySaginaw BayBrule NarrowsLost BayAlder CreekOlson BayCranberry BayDove BayBlack Bay NarrowsTilson BayFrank BayTilson CreekJackfish BayGrassy Narrows5. KAWISHIWI RIVERNavigable throughout,includes:Kawishiwi LakeKawishiwi RiverSquare LakeKawasachong LakeLake PollyKoma LakeMalberg LakeAmber LakeRiver LakeFishdance LakeAlice LakeInsula LakeHudson LakeLake FourLake ThreeLake TwoLake OneSouth Kawishiwi RiverBirch LakeWhite Iron LakeNorth Fork Kawishiwi R.Farm LakeSouth Farm LakeGarden LakeFall LakeNewton Lake6. KETTLE RIVERNavigable throughoutNavigable tributaries,includes:Willow RiverMoose RiverWest Branch of theMoose RiverGrindstone River7. LAKE OF THE WOODSNavigable through out,within the limits ofthe United States,includes:Four Mile BayZippel BayMoose BayYoungs BayNorth West Angle InletSand Point Bay8. LAKE SUPERIORNavigable throughout9. LAKE TRAVERSENavigable throughout,includes:Mud Lake10. LITTLE FORK RIVERNavigable throughout11. LOWER RED LAKENavigable throughout12. MILLE LACS LAKENavigable throughout13. MINNESOTA RIVERNavigable throughout,includes:Lac Qui ParleMarsh Lake14. MISSISSIPPI RIVERNavigable to outlet ofLake Bemidji, includesnumerous lakes, sloughs,channels, runs and ponds;some larger adjoiningwaters between St. Cloudand Lake Bemidji,include:Zebulon Pike LakeHalf Moon LakeRice LakeLittle Rabbit LakeLake SylvanPaper Mill ReservoirLittle White Oak LakeWhite Oak LakeStump LakeLake AndrusiaCass Lake, whichincludesPike BayAllens BayOse LakeLittle Lake Winnibigoshish15. MISSISSIPPI RIVER HEADWATERSRESERVOIRSNavigable throughout15a. Leech Lake and LeechLake River includes:All Associated Arms,Bays and NarrowsLeech LakeTurtle Lake (Traders Bay)Steamboat LakeSteamboat RiverKabekona RiverNavigable upstreamto Oak LakeBoy LakeBoy RiverNavigable upstream toSwift LakeSteamboat Bay LakeGould LakeShingobee River and BayNavigable upstream toCounty 50 BridgeSucker CreekNavigable upstream 1mile of Sucker BayLost LakeSkelly Lake15b. Lake Winnibigoshishincludes:All associated Arms, Baysand NarrowsLake WinnibigoshishLake HarryDeer LakeCut Foot Sioux LakeFirst RiverThird River FlowageSugar LakePigeon Dam LakeRabbits LakeThird RiverNavigable upstream 1 mileEgg LakeRaven CreekLittle Cut Foot Sioux Lake15c. Pokegama Lake,includes:All Associated Arms, Bays andNarrowsPokegama LakeNavigable Waters of the United States in Minnesota (cont) 3Little Pokegama LakeJay Gould LakeLittle Jay Gould LakeBlackwater LakeCut—off Lake15d. Big Sandy Lakeincludes:All Associated Arms, Bays andNarrowsBig Sandy LakeAitkin LakeDavis LakeSteamboat LakeFlowage LakeSandy River LakeSandy RiverNavigable upstream to SteamboatLake15e. Pine River Reservoir,Pine River includes:All Associated Arms, Baysand Narrows within theWhitefish chain of Lakessystem.Lower Whitefish LakeUpper Whitefish LakeBig Trout LakeCross LakeDaggett LakeLittle Pine LakeRush LakeIsland LakeLoon LakePig LakeArrowhead LakeClamshell LakeHay Creek1 mile upstreamUpper Hay LakeLower Hay LakeBertha LakePine River (From theDam to the MississippiRiver)Swedetown Bay15f. Gull Lake, Gull RiverincludeAll Associated Arms, Baysand NarrowsGull LakeLove LakeRound LakeRoy LakeUpper Gull LakeBass LakeMargaret LakeNisswa LakeSpring LakeGull River (From Damto Mississippi River)Steamboat BayWilson Bay16. PIGEON RIVERFlows east through CookCounty,Navigable throughout, withinlimits of the United States,Includes: South Lake (source)Rat LakeRose LakeRove LakeWatap LakeMountain LakeFan LakeVasseux LakeMoose LakeNorth Fowl LakeSouth Fowl Lake17. PIKE RIVERNavigable throughout18. RAINY RIVERNavigable throughoutwithin the limits ofthe United States19. RED LAKE RIVERNavigable throughout20. RED RIVER OF THE NORTHNavigable within limitsof the United States21. RUM RIVERNavigable throughout22. SNAKE RIVERNavigable throughoutincludes:Cross LakePokegama LakeNavigable tributariesincludes:Groundhouse RiverAnn RiverKnife River23. ST. CROIX RIVERNavigable to mouthof the NamekagonRiver, includes:Kettle River SloughFolsom LakePeas lee LakeLower LakeLake MallalieuLake St. Croix24. ST. LOUIS RIVERNavigable to themouth of theEmbarrass River,IncludesSt Louis BaySpirit LakeMud LakeThomson Reservoir25. UPPER RED LAKENavigable throughout26.VERMILION LAKENavigable throughout,includes:Vermilion LakeHead of the Lakes BayWakemup BayBlack BayNorwegian BayLarsons BayBig BayDaisy BayEveretts BayPike BayStuntz BayGreenwood BayFrazier BaySmart BayCanfield Portage BayBystrom BayWolf BayNites BayMuskego BayWaconda BayIndian BayRice BayBass BayArmstrong BayCable BayMattson BayMud Creek Bay27. VERMILION RIVERNavigable through out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMickish Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The USCG law about requiring the six pack is not a new law, they just decided to enforce it up here, for those that didn't know that. I believe it also refers to navagable waters that handle commercial vessels (barges, casino/cruise ships). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alagnak Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 mnfishinguy said: The USCG law about requiring the six pack is not a new law, they just decided to enforce it up here, for those that didn't know that. I believe it also refers to navagable waters that handle commercial vessels (barges, casino/cruise ships). FYI- after another member asked for the information, the entire list for the state was provided above your post of what you 'believe' it refers too. It's the list from the CG HSOforum.In your experience how is the USCG now 'enforcing' it? They sent a notice out to DNR and the news papers 3 years ago saying that they are going to enforce a rule that's been on the books for dozens of years but when have you seen, or heard of anyone being 'enforced'? That's the problem, they don't have enforcment anywhere besides the great lakes and big Miss, very lower end of the MN river and pretty much are relying on other guides who do have it to rat out the ones that don't and then are sending a warning about compliance. I'm not comforttable doing that, but I also don't like seeing reputable guides being undercut by those who don't have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClownColor Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Alagnak said: ClownColor- below is the list. It's pretty much any river system from the head waters down (or up for Red) and any lakes that they run through.I'm just wondering why you think it's ok that all of these waters a guide would need a USCG license but just not Mille Lacs? Are any of these waters more or less dangerous? Or do you just think it's alright that if certain groups of people (resorts?) complain enough they can get special regs just for them to bypass what the USCG has deemed as a safe and professional practice for all fishing guides. This is an assumption of course to say resorts because this way they can hire any high school kid, college kid, or joe-shmo to run their 'launch' boat without oversight and regulation along with any other guiding activities. It usually wouldn't be any reputable guide fighting it because they already have it. The problem is that others that don't can offer services cheaper because they don't have to pay for the schooling/testing to acquire and to keep their license up.Personally, I think it's way too much over reaching by the big gov except for charters on the great lakes. If they are going to blanket these regs though, I would think that consistency would be nice and not to cater to any 'special interests' but it seems our gov is really good at that. Here's my opinion again as I have nothing to gain or lose from this.Mille lacs is a huge and popular body of water. Most of us haven't even heard of over 90% of the lakes on that list other then Mille lacs and few other big name bodies. Yes-mille lacs has many more lobbist or people pushing for more /less rules then other lakes. I'd also bet that over 90% of those lakes don't even have guides so it's not even an issue. Pretend mille lacs is like california. More people, more lobbist-more rules that they have and changes they can make.On a larger scale, take gay rights. Why has it passes in some states but not all? Some areas have people pushing for it while others do not. The gay right activists, like mille lacs, probably think they have a better chance changing one area then everything as a whole..which worked! Again-just my assumption of how this has been going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMickish Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 After doing some research on this, it appears that the rules have changed. I was wrong about the navigable waters, as that was part of the change. I found this on another site but it explains it very clearly.There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding Federal Waters in Minnesota. I have had to educate myself regarding this issue as a condition of employment. here is what I found. I make no guarantee as to its accuracy. Check it out for yourself. Too much opinion has already been stated as fact. In articles and on the news.After 911, jurisdiction over the USCG was moved from the DOT to the newly formed Office of Homeland Security.The Federal Clean Waters Act which passed by congress and just recently went into effect changed the classification of many bodies of water, rivers, ect.. to Federal Waters. Jurisdiction to enforce existing laws applicable on these bodies of water became the responsibility of the USCG. Don't blame the USCG, their job is simply enforcement of the Federally mandated laws. The lesser USCG restricted license mentioned in other replies does not apply to fishing guides or individuals who take passengers for hire. At this time anyway. Unless there is a change , which I have been told is unlikely. A USCG OUPV lic. (6 pack) is required on Fed. waters and if your guide boat, charter or launch takes more than 6 people a USCG Masters lic. is required. The same licensing applies to excursion or passenger boats.What actually designates Federal waters in MN is a good question. The Coast Guard has the answer.If you are a guide or do anything for hire on fed. waters you probably won't like their answer.I did a search of United States Navigable Waters in MN and have talked to the Coast Guard regarding this subject.When congress passed the Clean Waters Act it went into effect, basically all waters in MN that have a drainage or flowage came under federal jurisdiction waters. This act was nationwide not just Minnesota.These fed waters which include but not limited to;All waters that drain into the Mississippi river or the Minnesota river. This includes the Rum river and all of Mille Lacs Lake.All waters that drain into the Red river of the north.All waters that drain into the Hudson Bay flowageAll waters that drain into Lake Superior.All border waters.All lakes, rivers, tributaries that are in the above descriptions. That includes the Mississippi river back to its headwaters and all other rivers that are a part of these flowages.Enforcement was stepped up in MN and other states on this licensing issue in 2009. The laws to some degree have always been on the books.Don't blame the USCG for this. Blame your congressmen who voted in the Clean Waters Act without knowing the full ramifications of what they were voting for. Or did they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alagnak Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 Wow. Thanks for that leading edge research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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