'Mille Lacs Lake Freedom to Fish Act' talk

[Alagnak]

Ok, so most of you remember all the stink about MN guides being pushed to get an USCG OUPV 6 pack license a couple years ago right? Some have gotten it which is great (think the 'Griz') and some have not because it's a royal pain in the ***, time consuming, and expensive- especially if you are a part time/occasional seasonal guide and it's not your bread-n-butter source of income. The coast guard hasn't been actively enforcing it one bit so it's made it easy for some to just forget about it. I remember when Cravaack put this up, I didn't know it was 'modified' just for Mille Lacs. Can someone tell my WHY Mille Lacs would deserve to be exempt from this regulation? Am I missing something here? So theoretically a guide would need the CG license to guide any other body of water (deemed as a navigable water way by USCG) but not if he drops his boat in one of the biggest bodies of water in the state? Obviously it must have to do with the resort/tourism business around ML having a unified voice apparently but it just doesn't make sense to me.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/blogs/183400541.html

"First-term Minnesota Republican Chip Cravaack, who was defeated for reelection, will get some consolation before leaving the U.S. House next month.

A modified version of his Mille Lacs Lake Freedom to Fish Act, which passed the House in August, made it through the Senate Wednesday evening under the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2012.

The bill, introduced in May, would restore Minnesota’s authority to permit and inspect commercial fishing guide vessels on Lake Mille Lacs, taking the U.S. Coast Guard out of the picture.

In March of 2010, the Coast Guard began requiring fishing guides on Lake Mille Lacs to acquire a federal “six-pack” boating license to continue to do their jobs. Cravaack said the federal certification is difficult to obtain and can cost individual fishing guides up to $2,000 in fees, training, and travel costs.

Cravaack, now working out of a basement cubicle, called the Coast Guard requirements a burdensome administrative overreach by the federal government. His bill was carried in the Senate by Minnesota Democrats Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken.

It is now headed for President Obama’s desk for signature."

[DTro]

Yep, that first thing I asked myself...."why just Mille Lacs?"

[leech~~]

It is now headed for President Obama’s desk for signature.

So the country is about to go over a fiscal cliff and the President of the United States has to spend time reviewing if a few Red necks "like us" in Minnesota take each other fishing for a few bucks!

[Finns]

That's what happens when both houses agree and pass on a piece of legislation on to him.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

Not to hijack completely off topic, but my first thought would be that this could somehow impact the native netting? But after reading it again it doesn't seem that it would apply correct?

[Down Deep]

I'd suggest you contact the congressman and ask him why he only included Mille Lacs.

[Alagnak]

I'd suggest you contact the congressman and ask him why he only included Mille Lacs.

Probably since he lost his position and his email from his campaign HSOforum doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried along with phone calls. Maybe he's your good buddy and you can provide me with his current email?

[ClownColor]

sounds alright to me.

Why not Mille lacs? Did any other people push it for other lakes? Maybe they just have more people "involved?"

Anyone know what other lakes in MN require the six pack? Guessing Superior and ...

[Alagnak]

ClownColor- below is the list. It's pretty much any river system from the head waters down (or up for Red) and any lakes that they run through.

I'm just wondering why you think it's ok that all of these waters a guide would need a USCG license but just not Mille Lacs? Are any of these waters more or less dangerous? Or do you just think it's alright that if certain groups of people (resorts?) complain enough they can get special regs just for them to bypass what the USCG has deemed as a safe and professional practice for all fishing guides.

This is an assumption of course to say resorts because this way they can hire any high school kid, college kid, or joe-shmo to run their 'launch' boat without oversight and regulation along with any other guiding activities. It usually wouldn't be any reputable guide fighting it because they already have it. The problem is that others that don't can offer services cheaper because they don't have to pay for the schooling/testing to acquire and to keep their license up.

Personally, I think it's way too much over reaching by the big gov except for charters on the great lakes. If they are going to blanket these regs though, I would think that consistency would be nice and not to cater to any 'special interests' but it seems our gov is really good at that.

NAVIGABLE WATERS

OF THE UNITED STATES IN

MINNESOTA

1. BIG FORK RIVER

Navigable throughout

includes:

Dora Lake (source)

2. BIG STONE LAKE

Navigable throughout

3. BOIS DE SIOUX RIVER

Navigable throughout

4. INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY

WATERS FLOW WEST

THROUGH COOK, LAKE,

ST. LOUIS AND KOOCHICHING

COUNTIES

Navigable throughout,

within limits of the

United States,

includes:

North Lake (source)

Francis Bay

Little North Lake

Little Gunflint Lake

Gunflint Lake

Magnetic Lake

Pine River

Pine Lake

Clove Lake

Granite Bay

Granite River

Gneiss Lake

Devils Elbow Lake

Ambush Lake

Prayer Lake

Morris Lake

Maraboeuf Lake

Saganaga Lake

James Bay

Sea Gull River

Red Rock Bay

Red Rock Lake

Swamp Lake

Cypress Lake

Mud Bay

Knife Lake

South Arm Knife Lake

Toe Lake

Portage Lake

Knife River

Seed Lake

Melon Lake

Carp Lake

Birch Lake

Sucker Lake

Newfound Lake

Moose Lake

Inlet Bay

Basswood Lake

Rice Bay

Wind Bay

Hoist Bay

Back Bay

Jackfish Bay

Pipestone Bay

Basswood River

Horse River

Navigable 1 mile upstream

Wednesday Bay

Crooked Lake

Thursday Bay

Friday Bay

Saturday Bay

Sunday Bay

Iron Lake

Peterson Bay

Bottle Lake

Bottle River

Lac La Croix

Tiger Bay

Boulder Bay

Boulder Rive

Never Fail Bay

Fish Stake Narrows

Lady Boot Bay

Toe Lake

Snow Bay

North Lake

South Lake

Loon Lake

East Loon Lake

Little Loon Lake

Little Indian Sioux River

Navigable 2 miles

upstream

Loon River

Little Vermilion Lake

Little Vermilion Narrows

Sand Point Lake

Crane Lake

Grassy Bay

East Bay

Rollick Bay

Rollick Creek

Navigable 1 mile

upstream

North West Bay

King Williams Narrows

Harrison Narrows

Staege Bay

Browns Bay

Swansons Bay

Namakan Narrows

Namakan Lake

Hammer Bay

Blind Pig Channel

Deep Slough

Randolph Bay

Junction Bay

Hoist Bay

Moose Bay

Moose River

Navigable 1 mile

upstream

Kabetogama Lake

Old Dutch Bay

Sullivan Bay

Ash River

Navigable 2 miles

upstream

Blind Ash Bay

Nebraska Bay

Mud Bay

Daley Bay

Bowman Bay

Irwin Bay

Duck Bay

Tom Cod Bay

Black Bay

Moose Bay

Blue Fin Bay

Lost Bay

Elks Bay

Long Slough

Lost Lake

Kohler Bay

Blind Indian Narrows

Johnson Bay

Squaw Narrows

Mica Bay

Squirrel Narrows

Kettle Channel

Rainy Lake

Anderson Bay

Finger Bay

Navigable Waters of the United States in Minnesota (cont) 2

Browns Bay

Kempton Bay

Kempton Channel

Hitchcock Bay

Finlander Bay

Marion Bay

Saginaw Bay

Brule Narrows

Lost Bay

Alder Creek

Olson Bay

Cranberry Bay

Dove Bay

Black Bay Narrows

Tilson Bay

Frank Bay

Tilson Creek

Jackfish Bay

Grassy Narrows

5. KAWISHIWI RIVER

Navigable throughout,

includes:

Kawishiwi Lake

Kawishiwi River

Square Lake

Kawasachong Lake

Lake Polly

Koma Lake

Malberg Lake

Amber Lake

River Lake

Fishdance Lake

Alice Lake

Insula Lake

Hudson Lake

Lake Four

Lake Three

Lake Two

Lake One

South Kawishiwi River

Birch Lake

White Iron Lake

North Fork Kawishiwi R.

Farm Lake

South Farm Lake

Garden Lake

Fall Lake

Newton Lake

6. KETTLE RIVER

Navigable throughout

Navigable tributaries,

includes:

Willow River

Moose River

West Branch of the

Moose River

Grindstone River

7. LAKE OF THE WOODS

Navigable through out,

within the limits of

the United States,

includes:

Four Mile Bay

Zippel Bay

Moose Bay

Youngs Bay

North West Angle Inlet

Sand Point Bay

8. LAKE SUPERIOR

Navigable throughout

9. LAKE TRAVERSE

Navigable throughout,

includes:

Mud Lake

10. LITTLE FORK RIVER

Navigable throughout

11. LOWER RED LAKE

Navigable throughout

12. MILLE LACS LAKE

Navigable throughout

13. MINNESOTA RIVER

Navigable throughout,

includes:

Lac Qui Parle

Marsh Lake

14. MISSISSIPPI RIVER

Navigable to outlet of

Lake Bemidji, includes

numerous lakes, sloughs,

channels, runs and ponds;

some larger adjoining

waters between St. Cloud

and Lake Bemidji,

include:

Zebulon Pike Lake

Half Moon Lake

Rice Lake

Little Rabbit Lake

Lake Sylvan

Paper Mill Reservoir

Little White Oak Lake

White Oak Lake

Stump Lake

Lake Andrusia

Cass Lake, which

includes

Pike Bay

Allens Bay

Ose Lake

Little Lake Winnibigoshish

15. MISSISSIPPI RIVER HEADWATERS

RESERVOIRS

Navigable throughout

15a. Leech Lake and Leech

Lake River includes:

All Associated Arms,

Bays and Narrows

Leech Lake

Turtle Lake (Traders Bay)

Steamboat Lake

Steamboat River

Kabekona River

Navigable upstream

to Oak Lake

Boy Lake

Boy River

Navigable upstream to

Swift Lake

Steamboat Bay Lake

Gould Lake

Shingobee River and Bay

Navigable upstream to

County 50 Bridge

Sucker Creek

Navigable upstream 1

mile of Sucker Bay

Lost Lake

Skelly Lake

15b. Lake Winnibigoshish

includes:

All associated Arms, Bays

and Narrows

Lake Winnibigoshish

Lake Harry

Deer Lake

Cut Foot Sioux Lake

First River

Third River Flowage

Sugar Lake

Pigeon Dam Lake

Rabbits Lake

Third River

Navigable upstream 1 mile

Egg Lake

Raven Creek

Little Cut Foot Sioux Lake

15c. Pokegama Lake,

includes:

All Associated Arms, Bays and

Narrows

Pokegama Lake

Navigable Waters of the United States in Minnesota (cont) 3

Little Pokegama Lake

Jay Gould Lake

Little Jay Gould Lake

Blackwater Lake

Cut—off Lake

15d. Big Sandy Lake

includes:

All Associated Arms, Bays and

Narrows

Big Sandy Lake

Aitkin Lake

Davis Lake

Steamboat Lake

Flowage Lake

Sandy River Lake

Sandy River

Navigable upstream to Steamboat

Lake

15e. Pine River Reservoir,

Pine River includes:

All Associated Arms, Bays

and Narrows within the

Whitefish chain of Lakes

system.

Lower Whitefish Lake

Upper Whitefish Lake

Big Trout Lake

Cross Lake

Daggett Lake

Little Pine Lake

Rush Lake

Island Lake

Loon Lake

Pig Lake

Arrowhead Lake

Clamshell Lake

Hay Creek

1 mile upstream

Upper Hay Lake

Lower Hay Lake

Bertha Lake

Pine River (From the

Dam to the Mississippi

River)

Swedetown Bay

15f. Gull Lake, Gull River

include

All Associated Arms, Bays

and Narrows

Gull Lake

Love Lake

Round Lake

Roy Lake

Upper Gull Lake

Bass Lake

Margaret Lake

Nisswa Lake

Spring Lake

Gull River (From Dam

to Mississippi River)

Steamboat Bay

Wilson Bay

16. PIGEON RIVER

Flows east through Cook

County,

Navigable throughout, within

limits of the United States,

Includes: South Lake (source)

Rat Lake

Rose Lake

Rove Lake

Watap Lake

Mountain Lake

Fan Lake

Vasseux Lake

Moose Lake

North Fowl Lake

South Fowl Lake

17. PIKE RIVER

Navigable throughout

18. RAINY RIVER

Navigable throughout

within the limits of

the United States

19. RED LAKE RIVER

Navigable throughout

20. RED RIVER OF THE NORTH

Navigable within limits

of the United States

21. RUM RIVER

Navigable throughout

22. SNAKE RIVER

Navigable throughout

includes:

Cross Lake

Pokegama Lake

Navigable tributaries

includes:

Groundhouse River

Ann River

Knife River

23. ST. CROIX RIVER

Navigable to mouth

of the Namekagon

River, includes:

Kettle River Slough

Folsom Lake

Peas lee Lake

Lower Lake

Lake Mallalieu

Lake St. Croix

24. ST. LOUIS RIVER

Navigable to the

mouth of the

Embarrass River,

Includes

St Louis Bay

Spirit Lake

Mud Lake

Thomson Reservoir

25. UPPER RED LAKE

Navigable throughout

26.VERMILION LAKE

Navigable throughout,

includes:

Vermilion Lake

Head of the Lakes Bay

Wakemup Bay

Black Bay

Norwegian Bay

Larsons Bay

Big Bay

Daisy Bay

Everetts Bay

Pike Bay

Stuntz Bay

Greenwood Bay

Frazier Bay

Smart Bay

Canfield Portage Bay

Bystrom Bay

Wolf Bay

Nites Bay

Muskego Bay

Waconda Bay

Indian Bay

Rice Bay

Bass Bay

Armstrong Bay

Cable Bay

Mattson Bay

Mud Creek Bay

27. VERMILION RIVER

Navigable through out

[JohnMickish]

The USCG law about requiring the six pack is not a new law, they just decided to enforce it up here, for those that didn't know that. I believe it also refers to navagable waters that handle commercial vessels (barges, casino/cruise ships).

[Alagnak]

The USCG law about requiring the six pack is not a new law, they just decided to enforce it up here, for those that didn't know that. I believe it also refers to navagable waters that handle commercial vessels (barges, casino/cruise ships).

FYI- after another member asked for the information, the entire list for the state was provided above your post of what you 'believe' it refers too. It's the list from the CG HSOforum.

In your experience how is the USCG now 'enforcing' it? They sent a notice out to DNR and the news papers 3 years ago saying that they are going to enforce a rule that's been on the books for dozens of years but when have you seen, or heard of anyone being 'enforced'? That's the problem, they don't have enforcment anywhere besides the great lakes and big Miss, very lower end of the MN river and pretty much are relying on other guides who do have it to rat out the ones that don't and then are sending a warning about compliance. I'm not comforttable doing that, but I also don't like seeing reputable guides being undercut by those who don't have it.

[ClownColor]

ClownColor- below is the list. It's pretty much any river system from the head waters down (or up for Red) and any lakes that they run through.

I'm just wondering why you think it's ok that all of these waters a guide would need a USCG license but just not Mille Lacs? Are any of these waters more or less dangerous? Or do you just think it's alright that if certain groups of people (resorts?) complain enough they can get special regs just for them to bypass what the USCG has deemed as a safe and professional practice for all fishing guides.

This is an assumption of course to say resorts because this way they can hire any high school kid, college kid, or joe-shmo to run their 'launch' boat without oversight and regulation along with any other guiding activities. It usually wouldn't be any reputable guide fighting it because they already have it. The problem is that others that don't can offer services cheaper because they don't have to pay for the schooling/testing to acquire and to keep their license up.

Personally, I think it's way too much over reaching by the big gov except for charters on the great lakes. If they are going to blanket these regs though, I would think that consistency would be nice and not to cater to any 'special interests' but it seems our gov is really good at that.

Here's my opinion again as I have nothing to gain or lose from this.

Mille lacs is a huge and popular body of water. Most of us haven't even heard of over 90% of the lakes on that list other then Mille lacs and few other big name bodies. Yes-mille lacs has many more lobbist or people pushing for more /less rules then other lakes. I'd also bet that over 90% of those lakes don't even have guides so it's not even an issue.

Pretend mille lacs is like california. More people, more lobbist-more rules that they have and changes they can make.

On a larger scale, take gay rights. Why has it passes in some states but not all? Some areas have people pushing for it while others do not. The gay right activists, like mille lacs, probably think they have a better chance changing one area then everything as a whole..which worked! Again-just my assumption of how this has been going on.

[JohnMickish]

After doing some research on this, it appears that the rules have changed. I was wrong about the navigable waters, as that was part of the change. I found this on another site but it explains it very clearly.

There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding Federal Waters in Minnesota. I have had to educate myself regarding this issue as a condition of employment. here is what I found. I make no guarantee as to its accuracy. Check it out for yourself. Too much opinion has already been stated as fact. In articles and on the news.

After 911, jurisdiction over the USCG was moved from the DOT to the newly formed Office of Homeland Security.

The Federal Clean Waters Act which passed by congress and just recently went into effect changed the classification of many bodies of water, rivers, ect.. to Federal Waters. Jurisdiction to enforce existing laws applicable on these bodies of water became the responsibility of the USCG. Don't blame the USCG, their job is simply enforcement of the Federally mandated laws.

The lesser USCG restricted license mentioned in other replies does not apply to fishing guides or individuals who take passengers for hire. At this time anyway. Unless there is a change , which I have been told is unlikely. A USCG OUPV lic. (6 pack) is required on Fed. waters and if your guide boat, charter or launch takes more than 6 people a USCG Masters lic. is required. The same licensing applies to excursion or passenger boats.

What actually designates Federal waters in MN is a good question. The Coast Guard has the answer.

If you are a guide or do anything for hire on fed. waters you probably won't like their answer.

I did a search of United States Navigable Waters in MN and have talked to the Coast Guard regarding this subject.

When congress passed the Clean Waters Act it went into effect, basically all waters in MN that have a drainage or flowage came under federal jurisdiction waters. This act was nationwide not just Minnesota.

These fed waters which include but not limited to;

All waters that drain into the Mississippi river or the Minnesota river. This includes the Rum river and all of Mille Lacs Lake.

All waters that drain into the Red river of the north.

All waters that drain into the Hudson Bay flowage

All waters that drain into Lake Superior.

All border waters.

All lakes, rivers, tributaries that are in the above descriptions. That includes the Mississippi river back to its headwaters and all other rivers that are a part of these flowages.

Enforcement was stepped up in MN and other states on this licensing issue in 2009. The laws to some degree have always been on the books.

Don't blame the USCG for this. Blame your congressmen who voted in the Clean Waters Act without knowing the full ramifications of what they were voting for. Or did they?

[Alagnak]

Wow. Thanks for that leading edge research.