private land crossing question

[harvey lee]

Western states court decisions have zero bearing on Minnesota law unless legal counsel introduces this information in attempt to sway opinion in a Minnesota case.

State Laws. Western states approach this differently where the Feds own a rather large percentate of the state and often 40% - 50% (or more) of some counties.

Mr Lee: I believe the land you own in ND is in the SandHills and is interdispersed with National Grasslands. Couple in the fact that is within an hours drive of more than 200,000 people can create issues. Seems to me this is not the first time you have noted confrontations and problems.

I am not sure how you post your property, but if following ND statues is not preventing issues - I suggest posting at intervals of less than 880 yards, posting at key fence corners - not just the gate, and making sure any old fencing is fully maintained and intact or add additional posters where the there is a gray area. While it is the tresspasser that is at fault ... it seems like it bothers you much more than the people tresspassing across your land. Much of your headaches may be reduced by a little additional pre-season prep. This "work" should also help you identify a few new areas on your property where deer have been using.

We post all corners, gates and approx every 100 yards from sign to sign. On some of the gates, we have signs that are 2ft x 4ft in size. All gates are locked and paddlelocked. We post 3 -4 times more than required by the state of ND.

No all the trespasser are from the big city you speak of as the last 5 caught and charged with criminal trespass were local within 15 miles. All the trespasser has to do is rip a small corner of the posted sign and it does not even have to have letters in that area and then they can come in and they cannot be charged with criminal trespass. That's what the CO has told me in person as I am a friend with him.

All fence lines are very well maintained as the renters have cattle on this property.

Our land borders the Sheyenne national Grassland on the sotuh side.

Just the other day, Scoot from right here on HSO was hunting our land and he said he saw trespasser while he was hunting.

There is simply no way to stop them short of patroling the miles of fence with 4 wheelers.

Yes, it bothers me alot when you are out hunting on private land and then 3-5 guys come along and shoot a buck within 50 yards of a friend out hunting.

I do not understand why people, not sportsmen do this and then they wonder why some landowners are so negative about letting people on thier land to hunt.

I do let a select few from the area up there hunt as I know they can all easily follow a few simple rules.

We have had people shoot deer down the road and fire right towards the house. The local CO had to come out and set up a decoy and he caught 2 that same evening.

The stories go on and on.

Last week we were up for 5 days and I asked my wife how many came driving by the house as the road dead ends right past the house. She said a few came by and she asked why they drive the dead end road, I simply said to shoot a deer from thier truck.

[gopher_nation]

No all the trespasser are from the big city you speak of as the last 5 caught and charged with criminal trespass were local within 15 miles. All the trespasser has to do is rip a small corner of the posted sign and it does not even have to have letters in that area and then they can come in and they cannot be charged with criminal trespass. That's what the CO has told me in person as I am a friend with him.

I've always thought most trespassing would be mostly locals. If the locals can pattern the landowner it seems they would feel more confident trespassing. I've heard stories of this happening and when the landowner broke his own trend and showed up randomly he "ruined" somebody's evening hunt.

I put trespassers in the same category as thieves. Asking permission is the right thing to do and the owner may just offer you a better way to get where you are trying to go. Or not...

[Beast26]

Ok smarty pants. What does he do if he shoots a deer and has to transport it over the property line. Does he have to throw the deer over the line and then jump over himself? If the deer is too heavy to throw can he setup a pully system between two of the trees to transport the deer over the property line? Personally I would build a catapult.

btw I agree this should not be an issue if you know where the boundaries are located

[harvey lee]

I have done exactly that Gopher.

I had given permission to one guy to hunt. He called me and asked if he could go out to the ranch and hunt the east hayfield and woods and I said sure.

I just got a funny feeling that something was up so I drove there "575 miles round trip"and went right to the area he was told to hunt and wella, 5 guys with 5 bucks. Nedless to say he is not nor will he ever hunt the place again.

I try to switch off and some trips go from Thur to Monday and then another time from Tues to Sat to keep the trespassers on edge of when I am there. Not had much uck with that either.

I would have zero issues with someone accessing public land using our property line as long as they hunt the public land.

[Tom7227]

I did a google search on corner hopping Minnesota and came up with an article in a Wyoming newspaper. It quoted some official who said it was illegal but then went on to report that a person was acquitted in a court case.

So I have not seen any Minnesota cases on the issue.

I also went and read the ND statute on trespass, 12.1-22-03, and it seems to me that the essence of the law is the same as it is in Minnesota. So Harvey I don't understand where the differences that you see are. Perhaps it is more in the enforcement which is reflective of the property rights issues. Maybe it has sort of an urban/rural difference. Urban folks have a tough time getting excited about someone crossing a fence 'in the middle of now where' in large part because they haven't paid for or have any knowledge about 'now where.' Rural folks who have paid for 'no where' and own it have a much stronger understanding of it and stronger feelings.

Someone mentioned the use of Google Maps as a contributor to the issue of access to public lands. This is an area where I would suggest caution.

A friend owned some land that was 1 mile north of a county line. There was a fenceline issue with another landowner. I attempted to use Google Earth and Google Maps to figure out who was right and who was wrong.

The first thing I saw was that the roadway that everyone thought marked the county border was off by at least 25 feet compared to the Google placement of the border. It appeared that every fenceline was also off by close to that same amount which makes sense. Back when townships and counties were laid out things were a whole lot less accurate that what is possible today.

The second thing I did was to contact a friend who is a certified surveyor. He is young and skilled and equipped with the latest GPS assisted surveying equipment. He said that short of an actual survey with proper equipment based on measurements that start an official USGS monument it is impossible to know the actual boundaries of a property.

I am not an expert on property law in Minnesota and I don't have access to the legal data bases that would allow me to do the proper research. However, based on the things I posted here I would think it would be hard to convict a person of criminal trespass in Minnesota in a rural area short of a case where the state had a professional survey done to establish the correct boundaries in question. I doubt that many prosecutors would spend the money necessary to develop such evidence. I also have no found a case on 'corner hopping' that would convince me that a conviction would be likely in the instance that this thread is based on.

Again I am not advocating that anyone trespass, or even attempt to do so based on anything I have seen on this thread. I am simply saying that based on the law as I understand it, and on the facts and assumptions that I have available, that I believe a conviction is likely.

I would be surprised if a criminal case would ever result in a definitive answer to the issue. It simply is to complicated and expensive to get a conviction and then to appeal it to the point where a Court of Appeals or Supreme Court decision was issued. It is more likely that a civil property line dispute would result in such a decision since it is more likely that a civil case would be pursued to the point of an appeal.

[maddowg1192000]

Ok smarty pants. What does he do if he shoots a deer and has to transport it over the property line. Does he have to throw the deer over the line and then jump over himself? If the deer is too heavy to throw can he setup a pully system between two of the trees to transport the deer over the property line? Personally I would build a catapult.

btw I agree this should not be an issue if you know where the boundaries are located

Building a catapult on both sides as we speak so I don't have to worry...lol

[Dave S]

Harvey,

Just for clarification this is in ND, correct? This wouldn't be the case in MN. Thanks.

[Tom7227]

Again I am not advocating that anyone trespass, or even attempt to do so based on anything I have seen on this thread. I am simply saying that based on the law as I understand it, and on the facts and assumptions that I have available, that I believe a conviction is likely.

Typo there - I do NOT think a conviction could be obtained in the case as posed by the original writer.

[Bear55]

Building a catapult on both sides as we speak so I don't have to worry...lol

[leechlake]

I'm imagining the land owners reading this thread every day saying, "geez...I wish he'd call me and ask and I'd say 'as long as you hunt after the first three days of gun season you can access the spot over my land.' "

[paceman]

If I was the landowner and he called me I would simply say walk across and drag your deer back across. Thanks for calling. Good luck hunting! No big deal!

[goblueM]

The second thing I did was to contact a friend who is a certified surveyor. He is young and skilled and equipped with the latest GPS assisted surveying equipment. He said that short of an actual survey with proper equipment based on measurements that start an official USGS monument it is impossible to know the actual boundaries of a property.

This is very true, even GIS (which tends to be more accurate than Google maps) can be off compared to a certified survey. Added to this, there's the whole "not all fences are borders, and not all borders are fenced" thing complicated hunter-landowner relations

[brittman]

HARVEY:

I never named a city. Cass County has about 15% (maybe more) of ND's total population. Sure Fargo has most, but many more are spread out across the county.

Locals are often the issue.

I have hunted the Sandhills, but spent much more time on Sheyenne River bottoms owned by my relatives a hundred miles or so up river. There were locals, both loners and groups that would trespass. Some would even drive pastures of my relatives on noon Friday if we did not hunt there first.

One older guy would drive around in his old El Camino and shoot deer a step out of his car. I often figured he killed a few more than his one tag allowed him too. I wanted to turn him in (no cell phones then), but then learned a little more. When I found out his family lived on deer meat - I figured nothing went to waste. Interestingly the number of tags boomed in to 1000s a few years after he died.

Even though the locals knew they would be allowed on most of his properties after our tags were filled - some still chose to tresspass.

More than once, I asked my uncle (a medium sized rancher & farmer in the area), why he did not call the sheriff or Game&Fish Dept. ... His comment was I have to live with these people 365 days a year.

[laker1]

Concerning the issue of crossing kiddy-corner from public land to public land with private land in the other corners is this. Court rulings have determined that the property lines come to an infinite point. This means that no-matter how "exact" in crossing part of your body will cross a portion of private land.

Before crossing there I would talk to at least one of the land-owners, not just over the phone but arrange a meeting with them or pull up in their yard. Personally if I couldn't get permission I would walk the extra 1/2 mile.

I am a little outdated,but 10 years ago in Montana they determined you could cross from corner to corner on public land. Wyoming at that time said you could not,but the Conservation officers and the state were not enforcing it because they did not think it would hold up.

Come fast forward to today,new rulings,I don't know. Back than I did a quite a bit of research and seen this in writings and findings. Changes?

Some of this I believe the state may not legislate in a certain way.

I guess I will have to research again for updates.

[Wanderer]

Maddawg,

I know you were just asking a question but you can obiviously seen there are varying opinions on this. If you haven't already just started crossing the corner, go talk to the landowners and tell them your intention. Let them know you want to respect their property rights and would appreciate it if they would show you where they believe the corner is. It might be interesting if you could get them both there at the same time.

[aanderud]

If the deer is too heavy to throw can he setup a pully system between two of the trees to transport the deer over the property line? Personally I would build a catapult.

btw I agree this should not be an issue if you know where the boundaries are located

[WIMN]

Someone mentioned the use of Google Maps as a contributor to the issue of access to public lands. This is an area where I would suggest caution.

A friend owned some land that was 1 mile north of a county line. There was a fenceline issue with another landowner. I attempted to use Google Earth and Google Maps to figure out who was right and who was wrong.

Tom,

best bet is to get a plat book or view online GIS plat books for each county. Almost every county I have checked so far has some form of online plat book (don't have to fork over $40 to get a hardcopy that will end up being outdated). Some are easier than others to use, or might be hard to find, but I have always been able to track one down if I look long enough.

[Tom7227]

I didn't know that the plat books had become available this way. Great info. Thanks.

But my point is that in a criminal case the state needs to prove every essential element beyond a reasonable doubt. Given what the surveyor told me I think there is reasonable doubt about the location of parcel lines and that's why I think a conviction is unlikely. There may be case law that I don't know about so I would not advise that folks push the limits. Get permission or stay off.

[Bear55]

Just a warning, all the GIS sites I have seen have an accuracy disclaimer. They are just there to look, nothing concrete.