Minnesota Nice?

[CANOPY SAM]

How would you "define" the meaning of Minnesota Nice?

I for one am a student of observation. I pay attention to people..how they behave, how they talk, how they treat other people around them. I think it's fascinating to see the complete spectrum of personalities in the world.

I think the term "Minnesota Nice" is a misnomer, an urban myth. People refer to Minnesota Nice as a way of behaving overly nice to other people. In a way, I suppose this is somewhat accurate, but I honestly believe "Minnesota Nice" is literally nothing more than avoiding discussion that may be viewed as confrontational, or inflammatory...ie. challenging someone's inappropriate words or behavior.

An example could be taken from an earlier thread, which appears to still be going, "How close is too close". Many folks have responded that they would simply strike up a conversation, or just acquiesce, and quietly drive away. I think this is the essence of Minnesota Nice! Instead of standing up and tactfully saying, "Hey! There's plenty of room out here for everyone! Perhaps you could give us a little space since we were here first?"

If you want to find genuinely "nice" people, try a little taste of Southern Hospitality. Customer service in the Southeastern United States is exponentially better, and truly "nicer" than anything we have here in the Midwest.

When confronted with obviously inappropriate words or behavior from another person, we Minnesotans just quietly accept it. That's Minnesota Nice!

I think we do a great disservice to each other by simply accepting obnoxious people, and their behavior. We "enable" them to continue that same behavior because we're "afraid" to say what really needs to be said for fear of "making waves"!

I'm officially starting a new grass roots movement called, Just Say NO to Minnesota Nice!

Now don't get me wrong here. This doesn't give us a license to go around starting arguments. I just think that we're encouraging further poor behavior from bullies, narcissists, and generally unpleasant people if we don't call them on it in the first place!

The Bible teaches us to be bold in our ministry. To humbly come alongside each other in love, and rebuke words and behavior that don't parallel what is expected of us thru kindness and mutual respect.

Challenging conversations make us all better people. We often learn we're not always right in our own behavior, and help to correct other people when their own behavior is hurtful and/or inappropriate toward others around them. If we don't occasionally "challenge" each other, and hold each other accountable, we don't learn, or see positive growth as a society. Relationships are stale, and superficial.

Thoughts?

[OnAFly]

Take it to sillytown.

[CANOPY SAM]

Ah! We already have a candidate for this application!

[TruthWalleyes]

Very well put. I'd back the Minnesota mentality to avoid making waves...

I actually had my boss ask me a few months ago where i was from (During a sit-down chewing) because i have a tendancy to challenge popular beliefs and express an honest and professional view of a topic, which almost always is considered "Making waves" or "Stirring the pot". I just thought it was hilarious that my boss figured that mentality came from a different part of the country...Yet i grew up on a small farm in southwestern minnesota.

I just look at facts and explain them. I've been called many names, and have had many "Sit downs" with the boss, but the conversation always starts with "Andy, everything you said was honest and correct; but there was a slight tone"...So here comes your AKS chewing

[Scott K]

If you want the true definition, go hang out in Chicago for a week, then New York, LA, then back home. You will see exactly what the definition of MN Nice is, when your not around it all the time.

[Riverratpete]

I work with an organization where people move in and out from other parts of the country and it's funny because when transferee's first arrive their like, "everyones so nice". After a few months it's "Everyones really nice but I've never been invited to anyones house". The Minnesota Nice" thing was a catchy Chamber of Commerce slogan. It should be something like "Were passive aggresive as H#ll and were just putting up with you until you leave" hahahaha

[mainbutter]

When people come "too close to me", I realize I do not own the water and don't really give a rodent's bum. I'm much too relaxed when fishing to ever get frustrated.

[/hijack]

[TruthWalleyes]

It should be something like "Were passive aggresive as H#ll and were just putting up with you until you leave" hahahaha

True True! Lol

[Ufatz]

Hey Truth, be assured I am not trying to preach or be a smarttaz. Sounds like you are a reasonable man of good intelligence but you may need to do a little reading on tact and diplomacy. I've never been averse to someone coming to me and telling me they object to this or that or think there is a better way to do things.

But there is a RIGHT way to do it and another way to do it that is sure to antagonize the other party and thus throw up an immediate BLOCK to your ideas.

The world needs MORE people who are willing to stand up and speak out. But they need to be clear and effective at it. You can be Conan the Agrarian or Grampa Walton; Colin Powell or Reverend Wright.

Carry on.

[Riverratpete]

It's all about tone. It's like talking to my dog, you can say anything you want as long as its in a nice tone. Heck your calling her names and she thinks your the smartest person ever. hahahaha

[YumYum]

wow

pot meet kettle ?

[BoxMN]

You want nice? Go visit farmers in north Dakota. Sure, some might like their privacy, but most I have met are without question some of the nicest people that I think inhabit the planet. Makes Minnesotans seem like New Yorkers in comparison

I agree that much of the MN Nice is the precursor to speaking behind some folks backs, haha! And I will confess I am guilty of some of that, but only about idiots and I am very nice until given a reason to be otherwise, then I just say good bye...

My Dad always taught us to think twice before speaking once. It has worked well for me over the years. (Now typing before thinking twice has occurred plenty, haha! Thank goodness for EDIT buttons )

[chasineyes]

I think you have to seperate "Nice" from "Hypocrisy" or being a "Phony". What I mean is, we have a neighbor who has never talked to one other neighbor and yet when they moved she wanted their new address and phone number to keep in touch. I can't stand that dump!!!!

I see people as being more and more hypocritical and fake than ever.

[TruthWalleyes]

I hear ya Ufatz. I never critisize a person, but i will criticize a product or process, and never without providing a method to improve said item. (I'm a Mfg Eng) Most the time people simply do not want to hear it, or they take it personally, which they should not - its business...But i'm with ya, i've got a ways to go with diplomacy even when presenting facts. There's also never a "Wrong" way, but there is likely a more cost effective way and i'll show you how to get there. I am not a fan of the business politics and have a very hard time not displaying my dislike or disagreance through body language, facial expressions or tone, but everyone must play by them rules as they are in every company.

[TruthWalleyes]

I find the people you meet in Chicago (Downtown specifically) to be very nice and super friendly. I have yet to have a bad experience in that town.

[Scott K]

Go to the burbs.

[Selmer]

When I moved to Minnesota I was well aware of the "Minnesota Nice" idea, having grown up in South Dakota and not caring for all of the MN plates that come across the line. At the first church council meeting at each of the churches I serve, we read in Ephesians about "speaking the truth in love". I explained to them (primarily quiet, non-confrontational Norwegians) that I expect us to speak the truth to one another in love. This may mean that we don't always tell each other what we want to hear, but speak the truth and do it in a way that is not antagonistic or defensive or offensive, but simply speaking what is on our minds. As a Lutheran of German descent, where we tell each other what we think, this was a pretty big shock, but the pattern of the community is that everything is just fine until it isn't, and then all of the complaints pile up and it blows up. It has worked well in my two years of service here. Minnesota nice still exists, but we also tell each other exactly what we think, sometime tactfully, other times not so much. It's more about speaking the vernacular (local language) that they understand and can respond well to.

[LakeWoodLady]

Yes, spend a week in LA or Hollywood. After one of my recent trips there I certainly appreciate the Minnesota Nice mentality. People simply wave hello to be nice, respect personal space, etc. I was shoved out of the way of an individual speed walking down the crowded hollywood street. I was verbally and nearly physically assaulted by a man on the train(thank god my mn friend was with) and my examples could go on....

and i'm not being bias... I'm originally from CA

[CaptainMusky]

Its funny how people from all across the globe can come here and comment how nice everyone is yet if "we live here" were really just a bunch of two faced jackjoles? Come on its not like we coined it ourselves. Its not like were calling ourselves the walleye capital or hockey town and putting up a tourist attraction.

Minnesotans are generally nicer than folks around the us and I have been around a lit. Heck we come to a round about and stop for everyone else to go. Lol

[Down Deep]

I don't agree with the basis premise of the original post. I don't believe that its my responsibility to go around a correct other people's bad behavior. My brief encounter with someone in the general public isn't going to make any difference in the course of how someone conducts themselves. My guidelines for speaking up are very simple. If someone is overly aggressive I will generally say something to them. If someone is endangering their personal or someone else's safety I will intercede. These situations are few and far between. Otherwise I mind my own business and move along. After all, I had enough responsibility for molding behavior when my kids lived at home and they are doing very well.

Is it Minnesota Nice. I don't know if Minnesotan's have an edge on the rest of the country for being somehow more affable. I have traveled the USA extensively and find most people I encounter to be very nice.

[BLACKJACK]

"Andy, everything you said was honest and correct; but there was a slight tone"...So here comes your AKS chewing

That sounds like me!!! I say what I think and sometimes I get 'lectured' for my 'tone'. So screw it, if thats what they want, when push comes to shove, if I see problem affecting the company, I watch my butt first and keep my mouth shut. And if it costs the company more money, so be it.

[TruthWalleyes]

That sounds like me!!! I say what I think and sometimes I get 'lectured' for my 'tone'. So screw it, if thats what they want, when push comes to shove, if I see problem affecting the company, I watch my butt first and keep my mouth shut. And if it costs the company more money, so be it.

Promotes a passive behavior doesn't it.

I showed our company where we will spend $1.3M more than necessary and how to prevent it...Almost lost my job over it, and we went ahead and spent it anyway... 33% of our products we buy or make higher quantities to get a lower piece price. But, we'll inventory it for years to come...So it does not save money in the long run, but it appears to be if you only look at piece price and sales price and exclude the $$$$ in excessive inventory.

Business managers are happy being ignorant of the inventory and don't want to lose business by realizing the true cost of their products. Some days my head spins.

[CANOPY SAM]

Now this is the candor I was hoping for! I was a little concerned after that first response.

Many of you have nailed it right on the head! TW made a few comments that really sink home, and some of the responses to his comments also make very good sense.

I too, know that I should work on my diplomacy when it comes to these situations. I'm frank and honest, and struggle to understand the "political" intricacies of why "speaking up" is so often thought to be out of line.

In a situation that calls for someone to stand up and speak the truth, we're too often ostracized for doing it, because in this part of the country it simply isn't the norm, even when it's commonly recognized as the truth.

So then, at least in my opinion, why, if everyone around me is "Minnesota Nice", should I feel guilty for being honest?

I've traveled the country quite extensively as well, and I've never found a region more steeped in a common unspoken understanding that it's "just better to not say anything".

Example #1. I worked for a large successful corporate chain with locations all over the country. The nature of my job REQUIRED that I go into each of these locations and make major significant changes to the daily routines of everyone that worked at each location. As stated above, this doesn't always go over well. I was tasked with introducing an extremely detailed, highly stress related service line, and I pretty much had to be a bull in the china shop to get the job done. Deadlines from the top.

In Ohio people recognized the need quickly, and adapted, with a little "personal" resistance, but with acceptance. In Louisiana people welcomed the changes, were constantly inquisitive, and were pretty open to positive forward movement (very cool people). In Georgia I found resistance, but I also found a genuine understanding, and willingness to make progress for the sake of the betterment of the institution. In California everyone was excited about new technology, and new opportunity, but got a little screwy if I challenged the way things "had always been done". Californians = good people, but a little strange. Sorry LakeWoodLady.

In Minnesota I met almost constant resistance, from both the everyday workers as well as administration. In speaking the truth, the changes that needed to be made (which they all knew were necessary), everyone took everything I said personally. It appeared to me that there was some kind of mass hysteria. It was okay to lividly complain about stuff, but don't say it where anyone could hear it! We'll change things to accommodate "you", but only if it doesn't affect anything that "we" do, and we won't do it happily. The undercurrent of discontent was palpable, and everyone knew that "speaking out" to anyone with authority would be redundant. It just wasn't done.

I actually ate lunch or had coffee most often with the "blue collar" group because the general conversation was so much more real, and again as stated above, less phony and hypocritical then the table with all the "white collar" suits. The white collars had quiet, bland conversations, that never addressed serious current issues. It was better to keep those under the table.

I've seen this same thing in numerous organizations in Minnesota, and I truly believe this "rooted" mentality comes from years of Minnesota Nice behavior. We tolerate substandard performance, unpleasant coworkers, leadership, friends, and even family members because speaking up makes us a social outcast, even if we're speaking up about a social injustice or serious issue in the workplace, or at home!?!

Example #2. A good friend of mine was just terminated from a position he held in a company for many, many years. He'd had enough and spoke up about behavior he was witnessing in other employees that simply could not be tolerated any longer. The people he turned in were friends with the boss. Long story short, he told the truth, and was systematically eliminated from a lifetime career of impeccable service. He obviously will have his day in court on this one (a courtroom in a different part of the country), and will likely win, but the point has been made. Don't challenge the way things are done here! I've endured the exact same thing in multiple settings...in Minnesota.

I think this is again a clear example of the repercussions of a Minnesota Nice mentality. Putting a voice to something that needs to be said, and being punished for doing so. Why? Because that's not the way we do things here? I think there's something strange going on here...

I love what Selmer says above. That's really where I'm coming from as well. A Biblical perspective, backed by Scripture, that states we are way off on how we're relating to each other today. We're commanded to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and sometimes that "love" requires that we be painfully honest! It doesn't mean we're being "mean", it only means we care enough to speak up in an effort to make things better.

We have to be able to speak up as a people, and not be chastised. We shouldn't feel guilty for speaking the truth because a long-standing social norm says just keep your mouth shut and be happy with the way things are. Look at the situation with the Crystal Sugar lockout.

Our society is breeding blatantly narcissistic behavior with Minnesota Nice mentality leading the way. "How close is too close" = He parked right next to us on a 300-acre lake with no other boats in the water. "Well, we better just go find another spot. We don't want to make any waves." Bull-puckey! Stand up and kindly tell the guy you were here first, he's too close, and that you'd appreciate if he'd give you a little space! Just say No to Minnesota Nice! If you let him win, by not saying anything, now he's right! And he'll keep doing this to other people. His GPS coordinate is right where we're parked so we better leave cause it's his spot??? Then I'm going to find the WayPoint to Fort Knox right now!!! I wonder if the guards will be Minnesota Nice?

It's not that hard to say what needs to be said. And if I say it, and people are offended cause I didn't put it in just the right way, use just the right words, or I didn't offer just the right body language, then I guess I'm guilty of being politically incorrect. Fire me. But it doesn't change the fact that I was bold enough to say or do the right thing, and courageous enough to try to make a positive change in a situation or relationship.

Being Minnesota Nice isn't terrible, but I think it's counter-productive? We can still speak the truth in a respectful, and thoughtful way, and the more often we do this, in the right circumstances, the more the "norm" it will become. There is freedom in being honest. We're held captive by "political or social" restraint, and this creates a breeding ground for profound discontent.

Keep it coming folks. I appreciate the honest candor. Just say No to Minnesota Nice!

[Kyhl]

As already stated, MN Nice = non-confrontation. It is to the point that most do not know how to be pleasantly confrontational. I have to remind myself of that over and over.

You don't have to look far to see it. Simple things like merging traffice are almost impossible in this state. Merging forces confrontation between drivers and many do not know how to handle it even though they have to do it every day. Culturally we (Minnesotans) are not skilled in handling the situation because we are trained to be non-confrontational.

Sadly both sides will say they know how to handle the situation. One will say, 'you get in line as soon as possible' and the other will say, 'you get in line as late as possible'. It is so bad that the state has to put up signs instructing drivers on the correct way to merge as they enter construction zones.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so disturbing.

[CANOPY SAM]

The earlier comment about how people coming to Minnesota say, "Everyone is so nice." Then later, "Everyone is so nice, but no one invites us to their house for dinner". I can't help but laugh out loud!

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Sure, it's nice to say hello to someone on the street you don't know, but how NICE is it if you don't really engage them...ever? That's superficial, "lemming" behavior. We all follow the rules, stay in line, don't look to the side, don't hope, don't reach out, don't love.

I think NICE goes WAY beyond that. Being nice to someone means you're truly reaching out to them. You open your doors, and your heart to them. There is inherent vulnerability in being truly nice to someone, and if you can't get to this point because "it's not the way I was brought up", or "that's just not the way we do things here", then you are missing out on much of what a rich and blessed life has to offer.

One of the observations I've made over the years is what I've seen in relationships in the various churches we've attended, or been members of over the years. Perhaps you've seen the same things?

The youth leaders, classroom teachers, and often folks just simply involved in the church are typically the immigrants from other locations. They're not "from town". They "step up", and get involved, and are more than welcoming of new relationships, truly getting to know new families, and are GENUINELY nice people. They're also usually not afraid to speak up when someone is slightly off the mark, or something isn't quite jiving with what it should be.

If they adopt the Minnesota Nice mentality, they'll likely never get to know anyone. They'll say Hi on Sunday morning. They'll make "nicey nice" conversations at work, and then they'll go home and wonder why no one calls? If they don't make themselves vulnerable, and stick their necks out from time to time, they won't get noticed by the other "lemmings". They'll quietly slip into the deep dark abyss of madness, and solitude, and succumb to the German/Scandinavian stoic silence, and eventually die contented with their discontent.

Many of the amazing folks in North Dakota are genuinely nice people because they don't have any fear of being vulnerable and honest. Without sounding condescending, I think there is more of a small town naivety there akin to a child-like innocence. They're "nice" because they're far enough from "civilization" and it's deceit, dishonesty, and manipulation that they're, for the most part, unaffected. It's a great thing! I couldn't agree more. North Dakotans are terrific people! I've lived there, gone to college there, raised kids there, and have thought many times of going back. All of my in-laws are North Dakotans, and are arguably some of the nicest people I know.

I enjoy being nice to people. Sometimes I say what's on my mind to other nice people and they take what I say completely out of context because it doesn't jive with "Minnesota Nice". It's slightly controversial, or it challenges a common way of thinking. It's always the truth, as far as I know it to be, but too often it completely shuts down the conversation because "we just don't talk about those things".

Thoughts?