Why keep baiting illegal for deer? Read this article!

[Big Dave2]

You obviously don't get it.

another assumption....

Not an assumption, an observation.

[Jameson]

Not an assumption, an observation.

That's your opinion.

[Gordie]

John great post except for the "Deer are food" part now a days "Deer are money". just about watch any hunting show and you'll find that to be true

they dont sell all the stuff to harvest deer for food its for the almighty rack that everyone has to have.

from the spray sents to the names of the food plot seed they have geared ity all towards the antlers and not food. Oh yea there are a couple of places that sell food processing stuff or spices for jerky but its geared for the Monster Buck . Look and you will see this to be true.

Thats fact not an opinion

if you don't belive it turn on the tube or open a hunting magazine

no denying it either.

[Bear55]

"a lot of it is based on opinion."

Exactly!

And what exactly is wrong with opinion?

John S I also like your post, althought it might contain a little too much opinion to be taken seriously around here.

John one more question, in your opinion do you really want to open up baiting for deer in MN?

[jay83196]

The only thing wrong with opinion is often people can't allow other people to have one without getting mad or insult them by calling them names or suggest they are not just wrong but stupid, nieve etc for just seeing things differently...

[john skarie]

Gordie I agree that the business of deer hunting has shifted from that of deer are a game animal(food) to deer are trophies. It seems the focus on deer hunting is all about size of horns now, and to many little else matters.

Bear I don't baiting to happen on public land, but don't have a problem with it done on private property. I've never baited and would not if it were legal.

If it truly is a major factor in diseases spreading than I would support keeping it illegal.

JS

[Gordie]

Gordie I agree that the business of deer hunting has shifted from that of deer are a game animal(food) to deer are trophies. It seems the focus on deer hunting is all about size of horns now, and to many little else matters.

Which brings me back to this topic of baiting for deer. Your not baiting to get the deer for food. Your baiting to get the monster rack.

Yea I know you can't get that big buck to show up at the bait pile but If you bait you will pull in all the does into it at that time which just happens to be during their mating season. Which if the does are there the racks are usually not far behind.

Yep little else matters and its all to satisfy ones ego.

[Basseyes]

You obviously don't get it.

[Basseyes]

as·sump·tion

Noun: 1.A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof: "they made certain assumptions about the market".

2.The action of taking power or responsibility: "the assumption of an active role in regional settlements".

o·pin·ion

Noun: 1.A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

2.The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

Splitting hairs.

[Basseyes]

The only thing wrong with opinion is often people can't allow other people to have one without getting mad or insult them by calling them names or suggest they are not just wrong but stupid, nieve etc for just seeing things differently...

Agreed.

The legislature and the DNR has to make decisions though. Those decisions have many angles to consider. There has to be compromises on issues where peoples opinions differ greatly. Within those decisions there is going to be support and opposition. Like it or not it is more about politics, than facts or science. And most views, are opinions, based on assumptions. Or assumptions, based on opinions. Depending on how you look at it.

And facts are lost in a sea of assumptions and opinons.

[Big Dave2]

Explain these post for me, to help me understand, a seemingly contradictory pov. Please remember, speak simple mindedly, because I am an assuming, non independent thinker, who is not all that intelligent. And whom, also seems to like China's government for some reason, weird?

[Basseyes]

I can't count how many times I have tried to explain my position to you so I will go back to my previous statement.

[Big Dave2]

I understand your position on personal freedom and the fact your opinion wants nothing illegal that is not harmful. I respect that. But these two statements seem bipolar. They don't make any sense. Just asking for some common courtesy and some clarification.

Seems like you are dodging a question you don't want to answer.

I'm not dodging anything, I feel like I have answered this 10 times.

I DON'T WANT EITHER OF THESE THINGS TO BE ILLEGAL. I have nothing against baiting, food plots or recreational feeding but I just don't think one should be illegal and the other 2 legal.

I stated that I would quit my arguement if recreational feeding becomes illegal because that would then convince me that there REALLY is a problem with disease control in the deer herd. If there REALLY is a problem with disease control and ALL feeding of deer has to be banned to control it then obviously I would see a good reason for deer baiting to be illegal.

As it stands right now I am not in favor of either being illegal, did I explain myself sufficiently this time?

[lichen fox]

Ethics are a moral code of conduct. They pertain to what is considered right and wrong. Such a collection of principles and values can be both on an individual personal level, and as part of a shared group belief system.

Aldo Leopold wrote, “A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.”

So, like the guy who shot the cougar...If you don't want to be attacked, just don't tell anybody...if you want to...put it on the internet!

[Basseyes]

I have nothing against baiting, food plots or recreational feeding but I just don't think one should be illegal and the other 2 legal.

I stated that I would quit my arguement if recreational feeding becomes illegal because that would then convince me that there REALLY is a problem with disease control in the deer herd. If there REALLY is a problem with disease control and ALL feeding of deer has to be banned to control it then obviously I would see a good reason for deer baiting to be illegal.

Thanks, appreciate the clarity. It is not as black and white as either side likes to think it is. But that is both an opinion and an assumption. And here's a couple more. Food plots are not going to be made illegal anytime soon. It would be to hard to regulate what is a garden, a crop field, a hay field or a food plot, for the DNR and they know that. It would create more laws and regulations that would be nothing more than splitting hairs. Recreational feeding might be made illegal in certain areas, for a certain period of time. Who's to say you are feeding squirrels, birds, pheasants or deer. That would be nothing more than a legal quagmire the DNR could never work its way out of. But baiting will probably remain illegal, for a very long time in Minnesota.

[Musky Buck]

I don't exactly buy the disease factor either BD2. I live in 2 of the alledged highest deer count areas in the state, maybe no longer, but you'd think that's where the chances of a diseased deer maybe would be highest or spreading would be more likely or maybe in urban areas where they're fed quite a bit. I know a few dudes that really are baiting but they call it year round recreational feeding, either way it is still altering where the deer are in his area, he likes that he can get behind them if they're there in the morning and catches them sneaking back to the bedding cover. 1 diseased deer in your area and the scare is they'll sharpshoot/dust as many as they can after the fact. If that's your location, that stinks.

[lakevet]

I DON'T WANT EITHER OF THESE THINGS TO BE ILLEGAL. I have nothing against baiting, food plots or recreational feeding but I just don't think one should be illegal and the other 2 legal.

I stated that I would quit my arguement if recreational feeding becomes illegal because that would then convince me that there REALLY is a problem with disease control in the deer herd. If there REALLY is a problem with disease control and ALL feeding of deer has to be banned to control it then obviously I would see a good reason for deer baiting to be illegal.

As it stands right now I am not in favor of either being illegal, did I explain myself sufficiently this time?

Big Dave2,

You definitely have a point about the inconsistency in the regulations. It frustrates me too.

Evidence that placing food that concentrates deer in a very small area is a contributing factor in disease spread is very strong.

DNR and Minnesota Deer Hunters Association base the reasoning at least in part for a statewide ban on placing deer "feed" for feeding or baiting purposes because of the evidence being so strong for disease spread. Especially with the more severe the winters we USUALLY have increasing the concentration effect.

Public opinion and high margin deer feed sales industry is the reason that feeding has not been banned state wide.......yet.

The regs at present are a compromise and inconsistent. And we have Rep. Rukavina introducing bills to push the regs back more towards baiting.

A major point missed by many is the fact that if no disease is present, feeding/baiting is not going to spread a disease not even present in the population. This gives a false sense of security and many draw the incorrect conclusion that feeding/baiting is harmless.

However once a disease does get into the population, it will spread easier and persist in the environment longer because of feeding/baiting. Then it becomes a race to try to get ahead of the disease spread. (think millions of tax dollars spent, especially if livestock and human health may be impacted) And with the high number of farmed deer escaping each year, and the number of hunters who travel out of state who may deposit an out of state deer carcass into the environment here at home, the risk of disease introduction is continually present.

In the USA we tend to wait until we have a heart attack until we decide (maybe) to exercise and eat healthy (more venison, less McDonalds ). Problem with this approach is bypass surgery is no fun, it is costly and painful to go through, and you will miss deer season. Same thing with diseases like TB and CWD in the deer herd. Refuse to do all you can to prevent the disease, or at least make it a less severe infection that is easier to treat, then get a disease and try to play catch up. Feeding/baiting makes it more difficult to get rid of the disease and makes spread of the disease more likely. In Michigan baiting/feeding persisted in the TB zone over there. Hunters refused to get on board in spite of strong evidence that their behavior was making things worse. Tuberculosis still is a costly, ongoing problem there. In Minnesota, we have had two close calls, one with TB and one with CWD. Bans on feeding and baiting were a important part of the disease treatment plan, along with other big hammers which were painful (like that bypass surgery). Minnesota deer herd at present is still healthy and a lot of credit goes to the DNR for doing the hard steps to get it done. Michigan's herd is still sick years later. Not allowing feeding/baiting is part of the medicine needed to have a healthy herd. IT HELPS US KEEP A STEP AHEAD OF DISEASE, instead of a step behind disease in the herd.

Just as I prefer to exercise, eat healthy, and take other preventative health steps so I will not miss any deer seasons because of a heart attack, or at least make recovery from one faster and more likely, I also prefer to not feed deer, and take other steps to PREVENT disease getting into the herd, and be able to not miss a season, or have the deer population rightly pounded to get rid of a disease.

I have every confidence as you study this more, you will come to the same conclusion. Good job sticking to your guns! I just want you pointing them a different direction!

lakevet

[lakevet]

In Illinois it is illegal to feed or bait deer with ANYTHING. Even salt is illegal.

Maybe they know something we don't

lakevet

[lakevet]

Deer

Section 201.01 of the City of Saint Paul 's Legislative Code states that “no person shall intentionally feed deer within the city.” This includes grain, salt licks, fruit, vegetables, nuts, and hay.

[lakevet]

Here is some more info:

Elk feeding eyed as source of brucellosis

By MIKE STARKBillings Gazette

The suspected link between elk on a state-run feed ground and Wyoming cattle infected with brucellosis will rekindle discussions over the future of the program for feeding elk in the winter.

Each year, about 25,000 elk congregate on one of the state�s 22 feed grounds where they munch on hay and, in some cases, share diseases.

Although investigators are still trying to pinpoint the source, the elk on the Muddy Creek feed ground are the prime suspects in the brucellosis outbreak in a herd of cattle in Sublette County. So far, there�s no sign that the herd got the disease from other cows, according to Jim Logan, Wyoming�s state veterinarian.

�We�re not trying to point a finger but the reality is we do have a lot of brucellosis-infected wildlife and there is potential for transmission to livestock,� Logan said last week.

Since 31 cows in the herd tested positive for the disease late last year, a second group of cows near Worland also has tested positive, which means that Wyoming is likely to lose its �brucellosis-free� status and face new restrictions on exporting cattle.

Wyoming Gov. Dave Freudenthal is forming a state task force on brucellosis. The group will look at elk feed grounds and how to manage them while minimizing the risk of spreading brucellosis to livestock, said Ryan Lance in the governor�s planning office.

�They�re going to exist. It�s a matter of how they�re going to work,� Lance said.

But Meredith Taylor, of the Wyoming Outdoor Council, said it�s time for the state to consider the possibility of phasing out at least some elk feed grounds.

A better option would be to improve habitat for wintering elk and give them room to spread out so that diseases aren�t passed so easily, she said.

�These recent outbreaks of brucellosis make the case for finding other alternatives,� Taylor said. �We�re at a crisis situation and it�s no longer going to be feasible for the state to ignore this issue.�

Jim Magagna, executive vice president of the Wyoming Stockgrowers Association, agreed that the brucellosis situation warrants an �in-depth look� at how elk are managed.

�It brings the whole issue front and center and for all parties to be more aggressive in looking at solutions,� Magagna said. �It�s also a reminder from the cattle producers� perspective that we will not be relatively safe as long as the infection is present in the greater Yellowstone area.�

Wyoming has been providing hay to wintering elk since 1909, when the Legislature appropriated $5,000 to feed elk in Jackson Hole that were starving and starting to eat haystacks on private land.

Since then, 21 more feed grounds have been formed in western Wyoming. The National Elk Refuge outside Jackson also provides winter food for elk.

Aside from providing food, the feed grounds have also offered habitat for elk as development in rural areas cut off traditional migration routes.

The supplemental feeding program has been popular, especially among those who want to see high numbers of elk in the state. It costs about $1.5 million a year, which exceeds the annual state income from the sale of elk hunting licenses, according to a paper written by state officials in 2002 for a conference on brucellosis.

The feed grounds have also become a place to spread disease.

Between 1 and 5 percent of the tested elk who don�t use the feed grounds have shown signs of brucellosis. On the feed grounds, the average rate is around 35 percent.

[lakevet]

Just some of much info out there. The last line of the above info is the no brainer evidence feeding spreads disease.

Again from Mike Stark Billings Gazette:

"The feed grounds have also become a place to spread disease.

Between 1 and 5 percent of the tested elk who don't use the feed grounds have shown signs of brucellosis. On the feed grounds, the average rate is around 35 percent."

and this is hay spread out, not corn in a feeder which is even more concentrating and can serve as disease reservoir.

Feeding doesn't cause disease, but it makes it worse. And those who feed start with good intentions, but now we know it is a bad thing to do!

lakevet

[lakevet]

Montana takes a hard line approach. Salt blocks are even illegal, not to mention trail cams, but that is a whole topic in itself.

www.plwa.org/viewarticle.php?id=149

a quote from above:

"Evidence seized during the search included oats, salt blocks, trail cameras containing images of the hunters with illegally harvested game animals, outfitter records and licenses, among other items.

Misdemeanor criminal citations were issued to Albert “Will” Carlson and Todd Carlson for the illegal use of radios for hunting; the use of trail cameras for illegally tracking big game during the hunting season; hunting of game animals with the use of bait; feeding game animals; and soliciting the hunting of game animals with the use of bait, among other outfitting-related charges."

Good old Inver Grove Heights, Minnesota boys hunting the great state of Montana with Minnesota legal tactics (tracking animals with trail cams, salt blocks, feeding game animals ) and Minnesota illegal tactics (baiting, use of 2 way radio's). Man I wish we had Montana's game herds AND their philosophy towards fair chase AND FEEDING/BAITING. Wow nailed for trail cams and salt blocks, way to go Montana! And who would say Minnesota had better hunting than Montana?

Again another great hunting state that is hard core anti baiting, anti-feeding fair chase old style, traditional hunting culture!

And bans feeding for good reason! Even salt blocks!

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

No, I don't want to fire this up again, but bow hunting concerns with baiting in my area, again, talked with a different group of bowhunters yesterday, not the 20 for 20 over bait by Halloween group, I think this group of brothers is worse maybe, they don't realize I rifle hunt next door as they save their rifle land for rifle hunting 15 miles away and get bow permission from an older landowner, they said they have all gotten at least 1 deer bowhunting 5 years straight, I'm like cmon 35 deer and bow hunting is tough, sounds easier than rifle to me, they freely shared try dumping a mix of corn and sunflower and you'll have the kind of luck we're having. Then they shared remember that nice buck in the outdoor news of so and so I said yes I'm aware, he said they had to wipe the corn off his lips before the picture. I said I'm unimpressed really cmon, they said bow hunting is tough unless you steer them your way lol, I said so 11 of you guys are baiting the bow season, they said no 7 of us I said well the 4 so and so boys do it to, I said I rifle the area and it's been awful the last 5 years, lots of lone or paired fawns, I assumed mom was with a buck now I think mom is already in a freezer. I was like did your dad teach you this or ? They said no, but he always shot a buck before gun season every year with his rifle, I said wow. Anyway, I hope this is just isolated to my area. What a mess my area is, a big honkin mess, man. I wish I were just firing up these stories for the sake of baiting being a bad thing for MN but no these stories are true.

[picksbigwagon]

I have said this more than once Musky Buck, call the DNR and turn them in

[Gordie]

I will only say this once if you know someone is breaking the law and you do nothing about it you are as much to blame as the person breaking the law.

nuff said by me.