Grouse hunting dogs?

[setterguy]

Tyler - This is why setters and pointers are traditionally considered the "best" grouse dogs.

Winners of The Grand National Grouse Championship

1943 Pointer Male

1944 Hall's Black Rocket, Setter male.

1945 Placements Withheld

1946 Burton's Fleetfoot Ginger, Setter Male.

1947 The Texas Traveler, Pointer Male.

Runner-Up Hall's Black Rocket, Setter Male. 1948 Placements Withheld

1949 Sam L's Skyhigh, Setter male

Runner-Up Contender Spunky Delight, Pointer male.

1950 Sam L's Skyhigh, Setter male.

1951 Trebor's Dutchess, Setter female.

1952 Mistress Pretty Bones, Pointer female.

1953 Puckety Village Boy, Pointer male.

1954 Tyson's Skyhills Flash, Pointer male.

Runner-Up Tancanhoosen Hunter, Pointer male.

1955 Retina, Setter female.

1956 Retina, Setter female.

Runner-Up Larray, Pointer male.

1957 Placements Withheld

1958 Vigorous, Pointer male.

1959 Doc's Girl Sis, Pointer female.

1960 Sam L's Rebel, Setter male.

1961 Sam L's Rebel, Setter male.

1962 Elhew Lucy Brown, Pointer female.

1963 Orchard Valley Melody, Setter male.

1964 Placements withheld

1965 Brenda Wahoo, Pointer female.

Runner-Up Sam L's Nabob, Setter male.

1966 Hussy, Setter female.

1967 Elhew Holly , Pointer female.

1968 Elhew Holly , Pointer female.Elhew

Runner-Up Sam L's Sequoia, Setter male.

1969 Ghost Train, Setter male.

1970 Grouse Ridge Will, setter male.

1971 Placements Withheld

1972 Pleasant Valley Liz, Setter female.

1973 Pleasant Valley Liz, Setter female.

1974 Elhew Flying Dutchman, Pointer male.

1975 Jetrain, Setter male.

Runner-Up Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

1976 Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

1977 Teaberry, Setter male.

Runner-UpWyola Jupiter, Pointer male.

1978 Ghost's Star, Setter female.

Runner-UpPleasant Valley Mandy, Setter female.

1979 Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

Runner-UpKumari Elhew Suzie, Pointer female.

1980 Lou's Astro Accelerator, Pointer, male.

Runner-Up-Police Woman, Pointer female.

1981 Heartbreaker , Setter female.

Runner-Up-Pleasant Valley Mandy, Setter female.

1982 The Sportsman's Briar, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Little John Boy, Pointer male.

1983 Andy's Safari Sami, Setter female.

1984 Stokley's Diablo Jake, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Decathon Man, Setter male.

1985 Penelope, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Tip Top Mollie, Setter female.

1986 Spring Garden Keeper , Setter female.

Runner-Up-North Island Samantha, Setter female.

1987 Honey B, Setter female.

1988 Skyline Patty, Setter female.

1989 Northern Alibi, Setter male.

1990 Grover, Setter male.

1991 Loleta, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Autumn Thunder, Pointer female..

1992 Stillmeadows Jim , Setter male.

Runner-Up-Cracker Jack Train, Setter male

1993 Crystal Light, Setter female.

Runner-Up-Star's Misty Ghost, Setter female

1994 Grouse Ridge Storm, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Jet's Aimee, Setter female

1995 Paucek's Tommyknocker, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Thunderstruck, Setter female

1996 Elhew Autumn Whisper, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Kalamity Seekah, Setter female

1997 Body Guard, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Thunderstruck, Setter female

Dr. Tim Pershke, owner and handler.

1998 Elhew Autumn Whisper, Pointer female.

1999 Seneca's Autmn Reign, Setter female.

Runner-Up-Ghost Train Bell, Setter female

2000 Holy Smoke, Pointer male.

Runner-Up-Chip's Super Chunk, Setter male

2001 Beaver Meadow Bette, Pointer female.

2002 Movelle's Gypysy, Pointer female.

2003 Hard Driving Bev, Pointer female.

[Ben_Berg]

Setterguy,

You may have already heard that our good friend Dave TerHaar just won

The Grand National with TerHaar's Elvis. I don't believe you can change what people want to believe. I have seen this debate on other forums.It seems to always manifest into some fellas wanting to thump their chests

about the capabilities of their dogs. Whatever dog you like take it hunting and have fun in your own way. I will only say this. It is a widely

accepted principle that dogs that smell the scent in the air are more successful that dogs that smell ground scent.This applies to Grouse,not Pheasants,these two birds react very differently to pressure.

[TylerS]

It is a widely accepted principle that dogs that smell the scent in the air are more successful that dogs that smell ground scent.This applies to Grouse,not Pheasants,these two birds react very differently to pressure.

Good point! That's why it's good to have a dog that knows how to do both. No point in using air scent if the wind is from their back. Not sure how you "teach" that, but Remy does it on his own. I'm assuming it's a breed trait.

[Steve Foss]

I've learned some interesting things reading through this thread. Thanks for sharing your perspectives, folks.

[gspman]

Finally a good discussion on dogs! And civil too. One thing to note is that most of the popular continental breeds primarily scent from the air nowadays. The pointers & setters don't have a monopoly on air scenting. The stereotype of the continental dogs running around with their nose on the ground is largely untrue these days and is particularly untrue for dogs out of trial lines. Trial dogs can't run like they are supposed to and have their head down. It just won't work. All my dogs have hunted the air first and only went to the ground as a last resort. A good dog will put it's nose where the best scenting is be it a setter, pointer or a continental.

Having stated all that I still think getting a dog that is bred for the grouse woods will increase your odds of getting a good grouse dog. There are plenty of continental breeders that do that but the setter & pointer folks have been doing it longer and I think your best bet is a pointer or setter. I've briefly met a couple of the setter breeders mentioned above and they are top notch folks and have forgotten more about birddogs that most of us will ever learn. If you've never been to a coverdog grouse trial I'd highly recommend going to one. I went to one several years back and saw some phenomenal birddogs. Including a Grand National Grouse Champion runner up. Met some very nice people (including the legendary Jim Tande) who showed me around and were happy to talk to me even though I ran shorthairs. All that and the lunchtime food was awesome!

[gspman]

Quote:

No point in using air scent if the wind is from their back.

Not sure if I agree with that statement. The scent is still in the air regardless of which direction the dog is running in. And a most dogs won't run with the wind for long anyway. They usually run out a ways and then turn to run perpendicular to the wind. Whether they work back to the gun or further out depends on the dog.

[TylerS]

Not sure if I agree with that statement. The scent is still in the air regardless of which direction the dog is running in. And a most dogs won't run with the wind for long anyway. They usually run out a ways and then turn to run perpendicular to the wind. Whether they work back to the gun or further out depends on the dog.

You're right, to a point. But if we're walking down a trail with the wind at our backs, or walking into a field with the wind at our backs, I want Remy out in front of me scenting, not turning around and working the opposite direction than where we are heading. Remy works the scent under the conditions that are given.

Case in point: grouse hunting trails, like I do, you're very limited to how you can attack the situation. I'm not a big brush busters, instead letting the dog do most of the work. We hunted of my favorite trails on a day when the wind was at our back the entire time. What was Remy supposed to do? He air scented on occasions if he lost a ground scent and needed to backtrack, but in general, I want him moving forward as much as possible.

Then, when we got to the end of the trail and turned around, he got the chance to air scent on the way out because the wind was in his face.

So while I'll give it to you that a dog doesn't like running with the wind for long, in this situation he had no choice.

Same goes for field hunting. I'll let him range out and to the sides if we have poor wind, but I won't let him turn around and work the other direction unless I'm fairly certain he's birdy. He turns when I'm ready to turn, not before. Otherwise we're taking one step forward and two steps back and not getting anywhere.

[tybo]

Any dog with good breeding and instincts can be successful. I would tend to believe setters/pointers have the better potential because they have been selected for it for a longer period of time. It doesn't mean individual dogs other than setters/pointers can't be exceptional. It mostly comes down to instincts and proper breeding. In terms of ground/air scent I don't know that I agree that air scent is proven to be better.

I would suggest you stop at a bookstore and find the latest pointing dog journal and read the article grouse hunting with a modern master. A former MI DNR employee and die hard grouse hunter has kept meticulous records of his dogs for over 50 years. He has flushed around 37,000 grouse in that time period. Yes that is 37,000 grouse. He trains his dogs to work ground scent. The one dog he owned that was directly from field trial stock is statistically the worst dog he ever owned. His belief is the dog didn't ground scent in poor scenting conditions. It's a very interesting article that in some ways contradicts some traditional thinking on grouse dogs. In case you were wondering his first dog was a brittany but since it has been nothing but setters. He had many more contacts with the setters which is why he stayed with them. Smart man in my book and you can't argue with his statistics, they are astounding. Just for full disclosure I am a setter guy but hunt with friends that have GSPs that are just as good as mine.

[rundrave]

This is a good conversation I don't hunt a lot of grouse but this has been an interesting read.

He turns when I'm ready to turn, not before. Otherwise we're taking one step forward and two steps back and not getting anywhere.

Tyler, I am sorry but you deciding where your dog goes is a bad practice in my opinion. Yes I reel my dogs in at times and attempt to get them to change directions as they are quartering every now and then. But to state that your dog should turn when your ready to turn is not a good rule of thumb to go by. The dogs have the noses, shouldn't we follow them? I turn when my dogs turn as the old saying goes(the nose knows!)

I learned to never 2nd guess the dogs, even if they run you backwards, sideways in a figure 8 etc. Why hunt where you think the birds are? When the dogs tell you where they are?

[TylerS]

Oh I have plenty of trust in my dog, but he's still young yet and tends to get distracted if we haven't been on birds in a while. I'm learning to read his "mmm, that turd smells interesting" tail wag, compared with his "BIRD, BIRD, BIRD!!!" tail wag. If I'm working with the wind down a field in an effort to get to a point so we can walk using the wind to our advantage, I don't want him behind me. That defeats the purpose. I'm not reeling him in, per se, simply keeping our travel going in the same direction.

Besides, I believe you get deducted in some FT if your dog isn't working in front of you. I know that was a faux pas in our NAVHDA NA test; doesn't show cooperation if the dog is going wherever he feels like. Just shows he's probably hunting for himself.

Personal preference I suppose. If Remy hits a hot sense and B-lines it behind me, I'm not going to call him off. But in general, I like to keep him in front of me regardless of which way the wind is blowing.

That said, except for extraneous circumstances, I typically give him the best advantage as possible. Rarely do I walk a field with the wind at our back, simply because it's unfair to him. As mentioned, the one area where we were SOL was hunting ruffs on trails that we did not deviate from. In those situations, Remy had to deal with the poor wind and use ground scent to his advantage. When we hit the end of the trail and turn around, he picks his nose up and air scents. All the while, I try staying behind him so I can watch what he is doing. Until science gives us the ability to surgically implant eyes into the back of our heads, I'll keep my dog in front of me.

[Redlantern]

I appreciate all the replies but could some of you explain some of the terms you are using? I'm completely novice. Don't even have a dog of any kind at the moment. There was some talk about reeling them in. Is that a term for keeping the dog close? Running them backwards? Brush busters? Is that a reference to just going through the woods instead of staying on a trail?

I know how some terms are used so commonly in a hobby/sport that sometimes people forget that others new to the sport don;t have a clue what the people are talking about.

Tybo, I think I'll heed your advice on picking up literature on dogs. Only problem is they use some terms which mean absolutely nothing to me. I wish there was a glossary of terms for hunting dogs.

[Redlantern]

Another question, with the last month of grouse hunting typically being snow covered where I like to hunt, how does that affect the dogs? Are some better suited to finding birds in snow cover than others? Some dogs more prone to problems with their feet than others? Booties, bag balm and trimming pad hair isn't a big deal to me but I was just wondering if some dogs are better suited for snow hunting than others.

[tybo]

Erik, if you get some basic books on dog training they will explain the basic commands and some of the terms. Honestly the better books will explain alot of this. It seems overwhelmingly but once ou read alittle much of it will make sense. Researching and talking to people is great advice. Remember any puupy you get is about a 10 year committment so don't rush it for you and the pup.

Do some research and if it still doesn't make sense this site and others can help you out. If a pointing dog is your primary interest get books focused on pointing breeds.

[gspman]

Quote:

There was some talk about reeling them in. Is that a term for keeping the dog close?

Yes. Although I wouldn't recommend it. If a dog runs alot bigger then you are comfortable with you might want to move on. They tend to have a natural range and while you can hack them in it is a PITA to do so and you have to do it all the time. Life is too short for that. Let the dog run to it's natural range or move on. Somewhere above there was a comment about keeping a pointer inside 40 yds. That's a waste of a pointing dog's ability IMHO. A pointers job is to get out there and find birds where the hunter won't go. Let that dog roll. In a coverdog trial those setters & pointers get out there quite a ways. Further than even I am comfortable with. This year there was the first (and hopefully more to come) AKC All-breed coverdog trial. It was won by a... wait for it... yep, setter. 2nd place was a GSP.

Quote:

Running them backwards?

Not sure what this means. You want to dog the hunt to the front and somewhat to the sides and not be coming from behind all the time. Some will call this "staying in the pocket". It means your dog keeps to the front and sides and is moving forward.

Quote:

Brush busters? Is that a reference to just going through the woods instead of staying on a trail?

Yes. It's a dog that likes to get in the cover instead of running trails/edges. Brush busting dogs come in all sizes. How they go about brush busting will determine how well they hold up. Some get beat up pretty good and some don't. For example I once had a gsp female that was around 50 pounds and she was a physical freak, just bulging with muscle. I'd take her bird hunting for a couple days and she'd look like she was run over by a lawn mower. Just beat up everywhere. The dog in my avatar is 38-40 pounds in hunting condition but hardly ever gets beat up but can bust cover with the best of them. I don't know how she does it but her way of going through the cover doesn't mess her up as much.

[grousehunter]

Tyler..I think the point given earlier was not saying for the dog to work behind you, but to range out further ahead of you and then use the wind to their advantage as they work back to you or crosswind. My chessie will do that if the wind is at our back..He will range out 50-60 yards in more of a straight line and then work back towards me with the wind in his face.

As far as grouse dogs go...I'm sure plenty of breeds are great, but I would say setters or EP's are the most consistent across the board when it comes to just hunting grouse.

[Setterman]

Rick, I have an English Springer Spaniel as well, and I'd match him up against any pointing dog for grouse hunting. He rarely ever is further than 20 yards away from me, and I can tell very easily when he's on a pheasant or grouse.

To each their own!

Ranger, You take me to your best honey holes and I will take you up on that offer.

[Rick]

I gotta say...a truly honest pointer is tough to beat in grouse cover.

My experience has been unless you have a person who truly puts in the time very few pointers are truly honest on point. They tend to creep and flush birds out of range.

If you don't put the time into training you may be better off with an English Cocker Spaniel. Very nice grouse dogs for the average joe. Field Bred Springers are good if you're into Pheasant and Grouse.

[Setterman]

I gotta say...a truly honest pointer is tough to beat in grouse cover.

My experience has been unless you have a person who truly puts in the time very few pointers are truly honest on point. They tend to creep and flush birds out of range.

If you don't put the time into training you may be better off with an English Cocker Spaniel. Very nice grouse dogs for the average joe. Field Bred Springers are good if you're into Pheasant and Grouse.

My buddy and I had this same conversation before I took him hunting. He always hunted with springers and labs. He said the dog would get birdy and and for the most part they would flush the bird into the trees and he would shoot it out of the tree, or he would shoot it on the fly.

First day we hunted he almost had a heart attack when I turned my dog loose. The dog ranged anywhere from 40 to 100 yards in the thick cover. After a 1 1/2 hour run this is a pic of him and my other buddy with 6 or 7 of the 15 we shot and we missed probably another 30 that day not including the woodcock.

Needless to say his mind has now changed.

[gspman]

Quote:

My experience has been unless you have a person who truly puts in the time very few pointers are truly honest on point. They tend to creep and flush birds out of range.

I'd be careful making broad generalizations. I could say the same thing about flushers chasing/flushing out of range and their masters running with loaded guns trying to catch up because their charges haven't been trained to stop on command.

[Redlantern]

Isn't the point of a flusher to not range out of gunshot range? I'm completely new to this so bear with me and my naive questions.

[gspman]

Yes, flushers are supposed to stay in gun range. Ideally well within gun range to give the hunter a chance for a good clean shot. As pointers sometimes bump (accidentally flush) birds out of range so do flushers sometimes get out range and do things they shouldn't. It boils down to control and instinct. A dog doesn't know what gun range is so it's up to the hunter to control the dog as they see fit. Many of the faults a dog has are the fault of the trainer and not the dog.

[setterguy]

Many of the faults a dog has are the fault of the trainer and not the dog.

Amen.

I would add another thing, people are too quick to give up on dogs. A close friend of mine has a 7 year old setter that flushed every grouse he saw for the first two years. It would have been easy to give up, and not keep up with the training. Now he is one of the most reliable and productive grouse dogs I've ever seen.

Guys get so nervous about the dog making mistakes that they try and reel them in, and control every movement of the dog. The dog never gets a chance to figure it out on thier own. My current dog is just 14 months, and people I go with understand there are going to be mistakes, but they also understand that letting the dog make those mistakes is all part of the process. You can't train a wild bird dog without wild birds.

[magicstix]

Many of the faults a dog has are the fault of the trainer and not the dog.

I would add another thing, people are too quick to give up on dogs.

The dog never gets a chance to figure it out on thier own.

understand there are going to be mistakes, but they also understand that letting the dog make those mistakes is all part of the process. You can't train a wild bird dog without wild birds.

[GSP4ME]

WIth the post towards the top of the second page about the list of Champions. You have to keep in mind that there is a large bias towards the long tails because they have dominated for so long. It has been talked about for a long time about why the Shorthairs dont compete in the National at Ames each year. Well there are only a handfull that could but wont becuase you dont stand a chance with the judging. I have a 5 month old pup that is starting to figure out the grouse. She will hunt down the trail and turn and cut into the brush and work her way back within 30 yards and head back out again. Not good for the FT but great for the grouse. It does really vary within the breed and getting a dog from the right breeder that has been breeding for what you are looking for is huge. Decide on a breed and then find the right breeder. No need to spend 1000 bucks on a dog though. Shorthairs are more overpriced in the midwest then any place else in the US

[setterguy]

You should really get a discount on GSPs, they don't even come with a tail!