Hold her back or just keep up?

[herm]

Myself and my lab are in our 3rd pheasant season. She is really turning into a great dog despite me. This season she gets hot on a bird and her speed quickly exceeds mine. This is a novice question, but what are your recommendations on handling this? Let her go and try to keep up? Or use commands and e-collar to keep her closer? Thanks for any ideas.

[MNpurple]

I think this answer is completely up to you and what you are comfortable with, because there is no right or wrong answer. My lab is four and I tried at the beginning to hold her back but also got frsutrated because the bird certainly isn't going to wait around for you to catch up and many times if we didnt get right after it, I ended up seeing it flush way out ahead. I finally decided that for me and my hunting style, letting the dog go after the hot scent was just fine by me and I just kept up with her and we ended up putting more birds in the bag because of it. Just because a book or an expert tells you what is the "right" way, doesnt mean its the right way for you.

That said, if she is going so fast that she flushes the bird out of range then you'll need to temper her down a bit but I certainly wouldnt use the e-collar on her for trailing a bird, wrong message there, work with commands instead. I almost always hunt alone or with one other person and its ok if she gets moving and we keep up, but if you typically hunt with a group of guys and multiple dogs, yours wont fit in real well if she is getting out ahead and flushing birds before the rest of the party catches up. Evaluate your style, what you prefer, who you hunt with and go from there....and have fun!

[LABS4ME]

Used to be a keep up with the dog kinda guy, evloving into a runin and gunnin type of hunter. No more. I was younger then and I more fully appreciate a more controlled pace while hunting. Seen way too many dogs where every bird ends up in a footrace between bird, dog and hunter. Literally been involved in a fairly quick jog keeping up more often than not.

Now my dogs are allowed to quarter no more than 20-25 yards and at a controlled pace... we do not let it become a footrace ever and I have noticed no negligible down turn in my bag. They quarter closer and in the end flush birds closer. when they are working birds they do not get the bird on it's high horse and usually we have plenty that flush in range.

Too each their own as far as expectation and style. I choose a steady pace and expect it, others except more of a freelance hunter...

Good Luck!

Ken

[Powerstroke]

If you want to be the one running after a birdy dog, that's up to you, but you will lose this race almost every time, especially in thicker cover.

A good bird dog finds the birds and flushes them at a range the hunter can hit. Sounds like a bad habit that needs to be broken. I know its fun to see them get excited, but the bird has an advantage over the dog and they both are faster than you.

I would focus more on the quartering and slowing the dog down when on scent. Try to avoid the ecollar when they are birdy because you don't want them to associate getting shocked with finding birds.

A birdy bird dog is a good problem, now to rein'm in a little bit.

[gspman]

Find a way to handle your dog and slow it down. Running with a gun is a recipe for disaster.

[fivebucks]

Like Labs I used to "run and gun" but this 50 year old body doesn't want to do that any more. When my dog gets on a scent and I can tell the bird is on the move I keep calling him back via the beeper on my collar. I will work the direction the dog wants to go and more times than not that bird will hold tight sooner or later. You also won't run past birds hopefully. I had a blast in my younger years chasing after a bird when I hunted by myself but when I was with others I hated when my dog "took off" cause it kinda wrecks that immediate area for the others.

[reddog]

Ahhh, the Labrador Shuffle.......been there, done that.

slow the pace up a bit and the bird will usually find a place to try to hole up . Pressure it too hard and the bird will just flush wild most of the time.

[Ryan_V]

I do agree that slowing the dog down is probably the best bet, but to the dog, that is what they are born and bred to do, and they love it. I find it hard to correct a dog that is on scent, that is what they are supposed to do, and it sends the wrong message to them. I still enjoy chasing a birdy dog, but my day will come too!

[Glock]

I am another vote for slowing down. I too was a run and gun. If you do decide this is the method you want to take, I would suggest being careful not to push the dog. It sounds like yours get pretty excited once it gets in the birds the scent cone. Dogs sense their owners, if you get excited and move fast, the dog will in turn kick it up a step with their tempo to stay ahead of you. If you start walking fast, they will even move faster. Pretty soon you both are moving too fast and maybe only chasing one rooster cause the rest stopped and let you move by them.

I once knew a run and gun guy (not me though right? :)that his dog and him were running a rooster. They got the bird up and shot it. The sound of the gun flushed 5 more roosters 30 yards right behind him where they just went through. I think that the birds were grouped together and we found the one runner. Had we went slow, I think there would of been a good chance to score a double.

glock

[herm]

Thanks for all the input. Most of it hits on my hunch, which is work to slow her down. (3 reasons: I am not fast; safety issues; and speeding past other birds.) She does well with "whoa," a whistle and "vibrate" on the ecollar usually gets her to stop and look for me. Between those - and me not chasing - I will work to keep her closer.

One more question: If she does start ignoring me because of scent trail, what should I do to get her listen? Thanks (again) in advance.

[fivebucks]

If I am calling my dog back (either beeper or voice) and he doesn't listen - he gets a nick. It doesn't matter if he's on a scent or not, he is not listening to a command he knows and that is not acceptable.

[Rick]

You need to train your dog the hup command. If your dog has a good nose you want your dog to be in range when the bird gets up. You should, more often than not be able to keep your well trained dog in range. Labs are generally very good at trailing a runner.

The bird won't flush any closer to you with a lab running out of range. You may lose some birds but you will generally bag more birds because they are flushed in range.

A well trained field bred lab is enjoyable to work with and will be fine doing this. Yes, they were bred to trail and retireive...but they were also bred to take commands when trained properly.

You will lose more birds and create dangerous situations if you and your hunting companions insist on running after your lab.

[reinhard1]

for someone with new chocolate lab pup [11 months]. what is a "hup" command. the dogs i had in the past were companions that went everywhere with us [fishing and camping]. Lucy the pup, is housebroken [rings the bell at the door when she wants to get out] but not good at listening to the "come here" comand. good luck.

[pokerface]

Use to have that problem. Cant run that fast, and dont want to run with a gun. Took him to a trainer who pretty much solved the problem and got him to quarter. Initially when we start my dog is super excited, especially if he picks up a scent right away. If he takes off fast and starts to get out of range I will give him a nick on the e collar. Nothing harsh, just a reminder to tone it down. That usually all it takes and he pretty good the rest of the day.

[Glock]

Problem is that it has learned the habit and now you need to undo it. I've seen the sit command used. Simply have them sit and wait for you to catch up and then release it again. Repeating if needed. Second option is to not keep up and allow it to flush the bird wildly. It might realize its hunting on it own rather then for you.

If taking off in a hot scent is your dogs only issue it might be something to live with for the season and work on it during the off season. Having a dog that ranges is easier to fix then a dog who follows your boot steps

glock

[herm]

Thanks to this advice, I think we are making progress on this. Hunted Sunday with her and only once did she get away from me. A few other times when I thought she was hot on a trail I got her to slow/stop with a "whoa" or vibrate. (She did flush a hen 1 of those times.) I think I need to try the nick as soon as I realize she is hot on a trail and no longer wants to listen. (It's getting easier for me to recognize that stage in her now that I've seen it. This never happened the previous 2 seasons.) Thanks again!

[Glock]

Reinhard,

The HUP command is typically used to get the dogs attention and have them look at you. An example would be when you are taking a turn and wnat to ensure youe dog knows your new direction. In a case of this discussion it could also be used to ensure the dog looks back at its owner rather then range too far. I use it a lot to get the dog's attention if they are off smelling that week old road kill rather then paying attention to the task in hand.

glock

[PurpleFloyd]

I have a question though. How do you fix a dog that likes to range too far?

I have a 6 year old springer spaniel that ranges too fast and have had no luck with doing anything to change it.

I will preface this by saying I take full responsibility for her being this way. The Springer I had before her was more of a boot follower and wasn't registered so when it got time to get a new dog I decided to spend some money to get good blood lines.

Her first season she was only about 5 mos old when season came around and the pheasant population in this area exploded, my other dog had to be put down, and I decided to take her out. Of course at that time she did not have any commands down but had a heck of a nose and in that first season she put up a historic number of birds but obvious to those of you who train she didn't have the foundation of commands and her drive to hunt took over.

In the subsequent years I did take her to a trainer and it would seem that she would be better and working with her in the off season she seemed to be better but when the season comes around and she is on scent she just locks on and nothing, including a collar, will keep her in range.

I have another springer that is 2 years younger and he is no problem when it comes to range and I have been using him more than her but hunting is what she lives for and i am at the point where I don't know if it is still possible for her to be trained properly or if it is hopeless. It wouldn't be so bad if she wasn't one of the most instinctive, best bird finding dogs I have ever seen.

[castmaster]

for someone with new chocolate lab pup [11 months]. what is a "hup" command. the dogs i had in the past were companions that went everywhere with us [fishing and camping]. Lucy the pup, is housebroken [rings the bell at the door when she wants to get out] but not good at listening to the "come here" comand. good luck.

One thing that works is to make sure your working with/training the "here" command with a lead/leash on the dog. As it improves go to a longer and longer lead. Having the dog on lead gives you the ability to force it to come to you, rather than it learning it doesnt need to listen.

[reinhard1]

Thanks for the info. good luck.

[castmaster]

You bet Reinhard1. And I guess I should clarify...when I say "force" I dont mean like a tug of war or anything. Just having the dog on lead lets you give gentle "tugs" pulling the dog back towards you when giving the "come/here" command, or when it doesnt obey it. It also helps you reinforce what it is your expecting the dog to do when you give that command.