Does/would APR's and no buck cross tagging change your hunt?

[lakevet]

We muzzleload late season in NE MN. Mostly drives and tracking with some standing when conditions are prime. Since deer may stay bedded as much as 90% of a 24 hr period at this time of year, and there are no concentrated food sources like farm country, we go after them as waiting can be low productivity, especially if timber wolves are working the area and you don't do the food plot thing (food plot=fast food for wolves). Our success is not as weather dependent, unlike hunters who mostly stand hunt, which can be a total bust if the weather isn't right. Trying to count points on deer sneaking thru thick thermal cover (dense conifer swamps) is hard, and trying to make sure there is no 3" spike on that doe is harder yet. Our best bucks were all shot at 50 yards at the most and as close as 20 feet. Our top 5 bucks all were shot with most or all of the head never visible. All were cleanly killed with single shot to throat, neck or chest. One was shot in its bed at 20 ft. All these shots were ethical clear shots thru a shooting "window" with no brush in the way. You could tell it was a deer and could clearly see the kill zone, just not the entire deer or even most of the deer. My best buck I jumped 3 times in a swamp (that was so thick on the outer edges that I had to crawl on my hands and knees until it opened up a little) and finally shot it in the throat at 25 yards as it was looking at me. All I could see was throat, nose, eyes and the base of one antler. These bucks, or for that matter any deer this time of year will not wait around while you try to get a clear view of their head. If you think you can get a good look at these bucks at 20 yds at -20F you are a better hunter than any of us. APR's mean that the tactic of still hunting/stalking within 50 yds or less of a trophy buck or any deer that is in the edgy survival mode these deer are in, on public land that has survived wolves year round, plus archery, and rifle seasons, would no longer be anywhere as successful.

The success of our hunting, even for antlerless (are you sure it doesn't have one spike?) would be greatly curtailed by these new regulations. We could do food plots on the private land we have, put the fence around til late season as one MN tv star promotes then drop it and sit in a heated stand, but it removes most of the hunting experience that our family values. Teaching a kid to go into the north woods at -20F and have them successfully get any deer and esp a nice buck with only his gun and head knowledge/skills/woodsmanship is what our hunting is about. Teaching them tactics of still hunting, tracking, and drives we feel are better for us as a family than methods and tactics that involve buying things to make it easier (food plot items, heaters, box stands, scopes, etc.) Not judging those that do, just saying we prefer not to do that route. Muzzy hunting already has the lowest success rate of any of the seasons and takes the lowest number of deer of any method. This is even more so in NE MN. To have even more restrictions added would be very frustrating, esp since I have yet to find any statistics that support the notion that these regs during muzzy season have any significant impact that is desired (harvesting more does and sparing spikes). Our personal experience is young bucks are rare in muzzy season any way, the rest of the hunters shot them up already!

Not cross tagging also impacts our group style of hunting. With big woods, and difficult walking on drives (deer are in nasty stuff that no one has gone into in earlier seasons) and sub zero temps, the 70 and 80 yr olds hunters go on portable stands with the kids as it is less physically taxing for them while the rest of us still hunt/drive to them. If the old timers and kids shoot more than one deer (usually does but sometimes 2 bucks) and a driver gets to gladly "gift " them their tag, it re-enforces a bond we have of family sharing. The joy of willing giving your tag to someone you care deeply for is to us at the core of "party" hunting. From discussions with many, this experience is becoming less common and the hunt has become more about the individual and a buck instead of the group and a deer. More regulations that increase the difficulty of harvesting a deer pushes hunters with our style and tactics towards the style favored by these regs, solitary stand (often heated/enclosed) hunter watching a food source, often manmade/placed attractant food source.

I realize many if not most hunters in SE Mn have ever tracked a deer for a mile or more and then shot it in woods where you could actually get lost for a long time. or have had timbers run by the stand they were in. The friends I have that grew up/ hunt SE Mn usually see more deer the first day of season than we may see all of muzzy season. Some didn't know what a "spike" was, every young buck was at least a forkhorn. We wouldn't trade our hunt challenges to hunt your area. Just hope your experiment doesn't come to our area and season.

Just curious how the regs would impact your family's style of hunting or if you don't hunt with family how it impacts you as an individual? What part(s) of the state do you hunt?

Prefer to have people tell their story without being followed by critical posts.

lakevet

[BobT]

I grew up in the area around Mt. Iron, graduating from Buhl in 1977. Throughout the 80’s I hunted with different groups of friends in different parts of the area but then in about 1992 I began party hunting with my brother almost exclusively around Mt. Iron where he lives today. We have enjoyed some very successful years.

We don’t specifically target deer for meat nor do we specifically hunt just for trophies. We let a lot of deer walk, bucks and does alike. We’ve taken some pretty decent bucks upwards of 220 lbs. and 14pt racks. We’ve taken spikes, forks, sixes, eights, tens, elevens, twelves, thirteens, does, and a fawn too. That one fawn was not totally intentional and is best left for another thread.

It’s hard to explain but it seems it comes down to the mood at the moment. Some years we might take a deer opening day and from that point on we’ll concentrate more toward bigger bucks and let most walk until the last day or two, enjoying just seeing them. Other years we’ll take more than one smaller buck or doe early. We don’t intentionally discriminate or set any rules for each other. Sometimes one of us will comment that our goal is a trophy and the other will concentrate more on meat for the freezer.

In the 2010 season I personally shot my first deer in five years. It was a decent sized doe. I’ve had my opportunities but let them go, not because they weren’t trophies but just because I didn’t feel like taking them at the moment. Four years ago my daughter (8pt) and nephew (10pt, 205#) each shot one opening morning on their first hunting experience and my brother took a 200# 11pt a week later. Two years ago my daughter got two (4pt, 6pt) and nephew got one (6pt) on opening day. When that happens there’s no need to take any more smaller ones so we start to go and just enjoy hunting with no pressure to take anything unless it happens to be a beauty. Last year besides my doe we had another guy and his son hunting with us and he took a 12pt that went over 200 lbs. and his son took and 8pt on opening weekend.

In our area the deer population seems to be good with a pretty healthy variety of ages and buck to doe ratio. I personally see no real benefit to be gained by imposing APR in the area we hunt. Other areas might be different and they can differ considerably. My brother-in-law hunts at his mother’s farm near Hibbing, just 10 miles from where I hunt. Last year on opening day he and his two sons counted eighteen deer. That’s a lot of deer to see in an entire season in this area much less in one day. The tally? 16 does and two fork-horn bucks. What has the DNR done to balance the ratio? The area he hunts is designated intensive harvest and my brother-in-law is not afraid to take advantage. He and his sons took four does and one buck. That’s what the law was intended to do and they cooperated. But they love venison and none of it was wasted. I enjoyed venison at his house twice this past weekend.

Would APR change our hunting experience? Although I do not support imposing APR, if I am going to be honest with myself and others I’d have to say it wouldn’t affect our hunting experience too much. I suppose we might have more years with fewer deer taken because we would be required to let those smaller bucks walk but that’s about it.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Heaven forbid a mandate that we know what we are shooting at.

[BobT]

Heaven forbid a mandate that we know what we are shooting at.

The OP asked us for our opinion about how APR might affect our hunt and to refrain from posting criticism and argument. Please take your arguments to the other threads where the topic is being discussed and allow this one to run as intended rather than turning it into another pro-con APR thread.

Thanks,

[InTheNorthwoods]

Quote:

The OP asked us for our opinion about how APR might affect our hunt and to refrain from posting criticism and argument. Please take your arguments to the other threads where the topic is being discussed and allow this one to run as intended rather than turning it into another pro-con APR thread.

Thanks,

That was my opinion on how APR might affect my hunting. I was taught to always know what I was shooting at, and that is my practice. Should APR's be mandated, my hunting would not change.

[fivebucks]

I hunt in north central by LOW and we hunt the big woods also. APR and no cross tagging would end the way we've hunted for over 30 years. The points that lakevet makes are the same for our 3 generations of hunters. The past few years we have had a decent amount of deer around (except last year) so it wasn't too hard to be selective and get a doe and be selective on a buck if you choose to be. But if you go back over the 30+ years I've been up there it varies greatly as to how many deer you may see in a season. I've gone a couple seasons without seeing a deer, let alone having a shot at any deer. I've had other seasons where I may get the chance to take 2 or 3 deer but my hunting partners don't get any chances. I am happy to let them tag one of my deer so they have venison for the year. It goes both ways. Most of the time I can ID a deer to see how many points it has but many years it didn't matter, if I saw my first legal deer 4 days into a 5 day hunt that spike (or anything brown if doe tag)is going down. My views are there just are not enough deer up in the northwoods to go to APR or to eliminate cross tagging.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I realize I sound grumpy. I apologize.

I re-read the original post and my post(s), and I'll expand. APR's do not change the way I hunt. I pass all small bucks. Its just the way I hunt. I don't think everyone else should be mandated to hunt that way, that is just how I choose to do it. What I do expect out of every other hunter, is that they know exactly what they are shooting when they pull the trigger. And it burns me every time I feel that people imply otherwise (which is why I over reacted). I think that we owe it to the animals we are shooting at, and the other hunters in the woods or persons/property in the surrounding area. No animal is worth "chancing it" in my opinion, and far too many people have been involved (or nearly involved) in hunting related accidents because the hunter "saw a white throat patch" or a "head and neck" or whatever and shoot for it - just a couple years ago a teenage kid lost his life in MN because of a hunter who saw "part of a deer".

But again, I don't like APR's. I would much prefer that cross-tagging be illegal, and I would like to see a lottery for tags such as in North Dakota. Every hunter buys their own tag, and I feel they should shoot their own deer. I understand individuals who want to shoot a spike, fork horn, whatever - let them shoot it - but that is it, that is YOUR buck tag. Allowing individuals to shoot several of them and use other persons tags is taking opportunity away from hunters like me who choose to give the young ones a chance to live another year. For example, two years ago I passed up 4 young bucks in two days - one individual hunting near me ended up shooting atleast two of those bucks (it may have been 3). I could have pulled the trigger but chose not to, and don't get me wrong, I like to pull the trigger. However, I wanted to give those deer a chance to live another year not to give the other hunter the chance to kill another little buck and put someone elses tag on it. My point is, if you want to let hunters hunt how they want and fill their tag how they want, you shouldn't be okay with letting other hunters decisions control how my hunt ends up when your tag is already filled and mine isn't.

[bigbucks]

I hunt Central MN. The APR's & no buck cross tagging wouldn't really change how I personally hunt much at all.

It might change things for the guys in our party who don't hunt as much & don't shoot a lot of deer. They're the ones that would want to shoot some small bucks, but who's speed & skills in recognizing a deer was there soon enough not to alert it & be able to count it's points & still shoot it probably aren't there. They are already too hesitant to move to get in position for a shot when there's a deer coming. That's a lot of the reason they don't kill that many deer. They're the ones that will shoot even less deer if they're implemented.

The guys that shoot a lot of deer are still going to know which ones they can shoot & which they can't most of the time because they're better hunters. It would definitely make some of our drives a little trickier. Often deer are shot or shot at that they know was a buck, but they don't know how many points it had. Heck I stuck an 11 pointer with my bow two years ago, that I saw coming, it was walking. I knew it was a heck of a nice deer, but I guessed it was a big 8 or maybe a 10, same with the 14 I shot this year. I didn't have a lot of time to count points I had to get drawn & shoot them. I hunt a lot, they both grossed over 150 & I didn't know how many points they had standing there ironically both at 18 yards. I saw them coming & immediately said "shooter." The boiler room is not on top of the deer's head.

I think APR's simply gets rid of more hunters, the casual ones mostly & we're losing enough just to attrition as it is.

[Boar]

Neither would change my hunt, my kids, my dad an brothers an uncles get together, not all at the same time, some pick a weekend an some hunt both, hardly anyone hunts all week. We sit in blinds, we share stories an snacks an snicker at jokes an [PoorWordUsage]. We watch the sun come up an squirels an wood pekers an we get excited wen we see a deer an more wen one of us shoots one. My dad gets the grill going about an half hour before sundown an grill out if the weather is decent. Dont support APR, use to do alot of driving an cross tagging an dont support that any more either. I am selective in the deer I shoot, mature. I want my kids to be able to choose, that they want to take that buck until they feel they can let it pass an grow up a little. It dont take long for them to mature an understand that its ok to let a couple walk now an then. I love the way we hunt. It fun, relaxing an very rewarding.Yes i would like to see more bigger bucks an would if I worked for them more. Later boar

[lakevet]

Thanks for sticking with the no criticism format! Who's next?

lakevet

[Jameson]

Let me start with if it wasn't for the multi-season tag and buck cross tagging I could have never been introduced into deer hunting. My first two seasons I was invited along to hunt with a group, because they didn't want to burn their buck tags opening weekend.

...Just curious how the regs would impact your family's style of hunting or if you don't hunt with family how it impacts you as an individual? What part(s) of the state do you hunt?

...

Most in our group choose not to share our buck tags, until the last day(s) of the season. At that point it rarely gets used. I twice have not identified spikes and took safe, ethical shots at what I thought were does. I may have soured on deer hunting if those two 'does' that I had shot were illegal deer to shoot. Also thankfully in each of those circumstances I had a party member that was leaving after opening weekend who was happy to tag the deer for me.

I hunt from the ag country west of the cities to the woods of the NE part of the state.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Let me start with if it wasn't for the multi-season tag and buck cross tagging I could have never been introduced into deer hunting. My first two seasons I was invited along to hunt with a group, because they didn't want to burn their buck tags opening weekend.

Without trying to get into too heated of a debate, and with the hope that this doesn't lead the thread off track, doesn't the bolded statement in your post exemplify the inequity and problem with cross tagging?

You're saying that you were invited to go hunting for the sole reason that you were a new hunter and could get a buck tag you otherwise wouldn't use so that they could fill your tag and not have to use their own (and only) buck tag. To me, that seems so contrary to the rule of only being able to get one buck tag, that I can't see why it is allowed.

*I realize that is what got you into hunting, and that is a great collateral consequence, but it certainly doesn't seem like getting you into hunting was their intent.

Edit - If this post is out of context and it seems to take the thread off track, I'll pull it. I just thought the statement was something that deserved being discussed.

[monstermoose78]

I hunt ne minnesota as well,I do not want apr, and I am for party hunting to a point. I have an uncle who in 2006 killed 3 small bucks and 2 does and the only other one one to shoot a deer in the first 5 days of the season was his brother inlaw. Me and my brother could not get off work until wednesday night after. As my brother and I were unloading the truck my uncle who killed 5 deer already said to us good I can shoot your deer to. Well I am for party hunting but give me a chance to hunt for my own deer. I had to take my dad aside and tell my dad if my uncle were to shoot a buck i would not take and turn him to the dnr. The thursday morning came and my brother shot 2 deer in within 20 minutes. Friday around 11 I saw a big deer walking down the trail to me I could not count points but what i knew was its spread was past his ears and that it was a shooter to me and as soon as he turned boardside I shot. Well it scores was 127 and3/8 inch 8 point and dressed out at 225 pounts.If my one uncle had his way I would have never hunted friday. I feel its a hunters choice what they shoot, but atleast give someone a chance to hunt. The only way I will tag a buck for someone else now is if its trophy in there eyes and are going to get it mounted.

[PurpleFloyd]

Yes.

[lichen fox]

It wouldn't change my hunt personally, other than in it would present two more senario's in which I could possibly get a ticket for an error in judgement of a deer I shot. I've seen many very good hunter's with 20 or more years and as many or more deer under their belt, mistake an adult buck with short spikes for a doe...I've had it happen to me a few times! When I hunt, I pass on smaller bucks and I'll usually take the first big doe I see to fill a managment tag and we hardly ever cross-tag bucks in the group I hunt with...but it does happen, usually late in the season when we're looking to put some more venison in the freezers...I just don't see either of these as a viable management tool in the area I hunt at this time...we have decent numbers of deer and plenty of opportunity's at bucks in 125" range and up. APR's and cross tagging regulations on bucks are simply meant to take pressure off the buck population, thus putting more pressure on antlerless deer. Putting these type of regulations in play is only telling us that in the area's they are implemented that "we need to shoot more does!" Shooting doe's is the only way to curb the population as they are the primary multipliers...one doe in the spring, usually adds up to 3 deer by fall! I really don't think the DNR would implement an APR or cross tagging reg statewide unless the population was too high everywhere in the state...it's just one of the population control tools they use, and it the case of APR's they get "brownie points" from the hunters who think they are doing it to provide more opportunities for everyone at "big bucks"...

[hockeybc69]

It would do absolutely nothing to the way we hunt up in Ottertail County.

We already have a point restriction for adults and do not allow any cross tagging of any sex.

You shoot it, you burn your tag.

[someday]

Not as much as the CWD rules. As I understand them 23 days 1 buck and unlimited does, no APR.

[PostFrontal]

The main property we manage and intensly hunt is in SE MN. But we do also have property by Sauk Centre, and hunt the WI gun season on a friends property by Grantsburg.

I mention each area because they are managed differently because of the make-up of the herds and the traditions of the hunting.

In SE MN, we sit in our climber stands starting the last week of October, then sit all day during gun season and only shoot bucks that we would put on the wall. I, and others in our group, left our buck tag in our pockets from 2004-2008 (except my buddies sister who we insisted shoot whatever) and are now seeing firsthand more 4 1/2 year old and older deer on our property than any other time during the 21 years we have had the property. From muzzleloader through the end of bow season we shoot does. APR's and no buck cross-tagging work here because of the numbers of deer. While I am for APR in SE MN, that does not mean I feel it is a perfect system. I feel the areas that are lottery with APR should allow buck cross-tagging as this wouldn't affect the does reproducing, and you could still do APR. Having said that, I would like the DNR to come out and say their goal is to have every area a Managed zone so we don't have to deal with this.

By Sauk Centre, I don't think the herd numbers are there for APR, and no cross-tagging would go to far in limiting hunting opportunity when there is a low opportunity as it is. We only bowhunt this property, and stopped hunting the property from 2007-2009 because of how low the numbers had gotten.

The reason I mention WI, is we do 100% drives on this property, like Lakevet and others. So I have experience with what you are going through. The family we hunt with has been doing drives and shooting any and all bucks, and no does for longer than the 4 Uncles, all around 65 year old, have been alive. This is the complete opposite of the way we hunt on our land, but it is their land and their tradition so that is the way we hunt. But when we have a small buck run by we don't shoot it, but also keep our mouths shut. That is because I don't get any fulfillment out of shooting a small buck, and would rather shoot a doe when I am going for meat. That is a personal decision, and I absolutely do not look down upon others that do, and does not mean others are wrong for doing so.

The part I want to talk about is we have the same issue of having to identify deer running full speed through woods where you may just get glimpses of them, and having to make a split second decsions. In the current form, APRs in SE MN are 4 points 1 side. I would like to see it rewritten to 3 points 1 side, browtines don't count. I think this would help the hunters that do drives in easier identification and still accomplish the goal of APR.

Having said that, I do not feel that APRs or elimination of cross-tagging should be implemented where deer numbers are low, for example Lottery Areas. I feel it would be going too far in limiting hunter opportunity. In areas that have higher deer populations, like SE MN, it works because of the number of deer.

But ultimately, even if they would work in others areas of the state, they should only be implemented if the majority of hunters want it like in SE MN.

[helpme]

Thanks for keeping it civil, I enjoy a good read.

[Jameson]

...hope that this doesn't lead the thread off track...

To me, that seems so contrary to the rule of only being able to get one buck tag, that I can't see why it is allowed....

That's is your opinion. Legally, party hunting is (was) allowed. My second year with the same group I shot (well, finished off) a doe that someone else tagged as it was a Lottery area and they drew the tag thus using up their 'buck' tag.

Back to a good thread...

[HNTNBUX]

No. I don't want to shoot small bucks anymore. And no you are not filling my tag, it has my name on it.