Salt in lakes

[Desperado]

DNR and PCA regulations would not allow introduction of beet juice to the ice to free a fish house that had froze in, in case anyone was wondering.

MT, it's like you read my mind.

maybe you're ... psychotic ?

[mtbucket]

Lightning

Ethics can be defined as personal standards of right and wrong actions, standards of conduct adopted by the majority of society as a whole, or standards of conduct adopted by the majority of members of specific groups within society.

For example, what may be considered as ethical to outdoor sportsmen may be viewed as unethical by extreme vegans or tree hugger environmentalists. I consider myself an ethical sportsman and believe in trying to strike a sustainable balance between enjoying hunting and fishing and maintaining the resources for future generations of sportsmen. One aspect of this is trying to avoid doing unnecessary or deliberate harm to the resources in pursuit of that enjoyment.

As I stated, and you restated, the examples that I posted are mostly illegal. They are also unethical to me and I believe, to most sportsmen. As far as using motors, driving my truck on the ice, etc., these things are legal and I think they can be done ethically and responsibly if we try to minimize the impact and not deliberately do things that have a negative impact. There are lakes and areas in MN like the BWCA and even some metro lakes where those things are not allowed.

Your post did make me think of an issue with using beet juice on roadways instead of chloride, though. Beet juice melts ice more efficiently and at much lower temperatures than road salt, and also does a better job of preventing refreezing. As vehicles drive onto the ice at the accesses, the resulting deposits of beet juice on the first few hundred yards or so of ice would make that ice much sloppier and more unstable than road salt does. Any run off directly from the ramps or storm sewers would have a similar effect. The beet juice appears to be less harmful to the flora and fauna of the lake, but worse for fishermen accessing the resource. Now that is a quandary.

[Desperado]

DNR and PCA regulations would not allow introduction of beet juice to the ice to free a fish house that had froze in, in case anyone was wondering.

OK, but how 'bout just a shot in each hole to help keep them from refreezing?

What if I just drank a lot of beet juice ... and let nature take its course?

Sounds better than chummin' blueberry breakfast bars.

[Great Outdoors]

Interesting discussion.

If salt is so detrimental to fish, ask a CO why the DNR, many bait dealers, and fish farms use about 2-4 lbs of salt per hundred gallons of water on their haul trucks when transporting bait/fish???

They even use it in their holding tanks in their shops.

It makes a big difference on their mortality than using straight water.

I've even used it in 5 gallon buckets when taking minnows from ponds, cuts the rate of death by 50% or more, and makes the bait stronger.

[mtbucket]

I am not a marine biologist, neither are most CO's, but the info from fisheries managers and biologists is easy enough to find on the web or from other resources. The use of salt to transport fish when the salt water is introduced to a MN lake by the DNR is a contolled and legally permitted process. In that case the fish are exposed to the salt water for a short period of time. Also the original post on this thread explains that the main harm is actually to the lower food chain, as the salt water does not readily mix with all of the lake water and tends to settle at the bottom of the lake, forever. Also different species of fish and other flora and fauna tolerate different ranges of salinity.

Here is an exerpt from a study of the practise:

Traditionally, 0.5 to 2 g/l (0.05 to 0.2%) sodium chloride solutions have been used to reduce stress during fish transport. However, as discussed above, an 8 g/l (0.8%) sodium chloride solution more closely duplicates fish blood. Some of Kentucky's live-haulers use 5 to 8 g/l (0.5 to 0.8%) sodium chloride mixtures and have had excellent success transporting channel catfish and other species. An 8 g/l solution is formulated by dissolving 6.4 lbs of food grade sodium chloride (feed mixing salt or table salt) in each 100 gallons of unloaded water (no fish) or 4 and 3/4 level teaspoons in each gallon (Table 1). It is important to remember that salts are highly corrosive to metal surfaces (e.g. truck beds, chassis and body).

Other food grade salts have been used to improve the quality of fish transport water (Table 1). Research has shown calcium hardness helps control leakage of blood salts and is required for their re-absorption. The desired range of calcium hardness is 125-250 mg/l; 250 mg/l calcium hardness equals the calcium concentration in blood. Food grade calcium sulfate (agricultural gypsum) will increase calcium hardness. Also, shipping water should have desirable concentrations of pH (7-8) and bicarbonate alkalinity (100-200 mg/l). Respiratory carbon dioxide can accumulate in transport water and lowers pH. Bicarbonate alkalinity helps to prevent pH from dropping. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will raise bicarbonate alkalinity and pH.

Channel catfish tolerate salt water with salt concentrations as high as 10 g/l and have been farmed in low salinity lagoons. Striped bass, trout, red drum and several species of tilapia will tolerate a wide range of salinities from sea strength to freshwater. These fish and many others perform well and handle better during live transport when placed in appropriate salt solutions. Some salt- and freshwater species may tolerate very narrow salinity ranges only. If you are considering transport of a fish species for which little is known about salinity tolerance, a 24- to 48-hour bio-assay (test) should be conducted first with a few fish placed in an 8 g/l salt solution; or transport the fish in water most like their preferred environment.

[Ed Carlson]

I tried to explain that very point earlier and on a separate thread. That solar salts are widely used in fisheries management. In containment and transport situations natural salts prove beneficial and is a approved practice. I use it in bait systems I work with and it's benefits are dramatic to reduce stress and mortality. It significantly increases the health of the fish in containment. I use 1/2 cup per 35 gallons of water.

I also mentioned the use of 6 cups (not 50 lb bags) of solar salt to free a frozen in ice house would not be environmentally detrimental but could be effective to loosen the frozen in ice house frame. Unfortunately all that accomplished was to stir up this whole ruckus. But if a ruckus brings attention to a larger issue, then Kewl...let us ruckus away then.

I most recently brought up the Beet Juice Ice Bite® system because I see it in use here in the Red River Valley, and it works very well.

I feel it is a much healthier method of ice management on our roadways and should be more widely implemented. It is better for the environment to help reduce salinity levels in our lakes and streams and to reduce phosphates in our run off.

The phosphate connection is overlooked in this debate and is the #1 concern we face on our lakes and streams in the region. Road salts have been proven to accelerate the transference of phosphates and other chemicals into our lakes and streams. We have an opportunity here to lessen that impact with a readily accessible and abundant safe and natural alternative if we chose to do so.

If you read more closely on the above post you will also see it is less costly to use and is less detrimental to vehicles and application equipment. More plus's for the user.

There is also an economic impact aspect to this ice mitigation issue. Beet juice is a renewable product grown logically and is a byproduct of beet sugar production. This switch over would add jobs to the region and to other regions where beet production occurs. The bulk of sugar beet production occurs in regions that are ice prone areas. So the production capability's are already well places to the need and this greatly lessens transportation costs. In comparison to salt mines, that are many miles away and transportation costs are a factor.

OK, I said my piece...let the ruckus ensue.

[CAMAN]

Quote:

I also mentioned the use of 6 cups (not 50 lb bags) of solar salt to free a frozen in house would not be environmentally detrimental but could be effective to loosen frozen in ice house frame.

That's all fine and good, but there is almost never just one fish house on a body of water, especially here in the metro. If everybody on that lake used just 6 cups of salt to free their houses you are now looking at ALOT of salt being introduced to the ecosystem. Do that over a period of say ten years and who knows how much salt has been unneedingly added to a lake. Rarely do people step out of their cozy little box and look at the big picture.

[Ed Carlson]

Ok, understood, but here is a Big Picture scenario for your consideration.

12 1/2 cups (6 c) solar salt X 35 gallons of water = 420 gallons of water would generate an approximate 6.7 pH per volume.

The salinity concentration of urine from 1 wiz on the ice is approximately 7.4 pH to a 8pH per volume. Volume is an unknown...depending on the beer intake prior to the wiz I guess?

So, what would have the greater impact on salinity, with the highest livelihood of frequency of an occurrence on any given lake?

Yup..more ruckus.

And yes I know, wiz'n on the lake ice is supposed to be illegal but it is done just the same.

[JbuZZo]

Ed you rock buddy...you seriously need your own show...I asked before, and if you choose not to answer, I understand. Are you a Fargo resident? Do you work at GM in Fargo? I'd like to swing by and say 'hi' sometime and meet the man behind the mythic posts...

[My_Key]

Unreal. I find it amusing that a person can tenaciously go after those who leave trash on lakes and river bottoms, then turn around and sanction the use of salt on lakes.

Using salt on the lakes is clearly against the state laws. It shouldn't even be a matter of discussion.

To quote Ms. Asleson again:

"Even at lower concentrations, chloride can have a negative impact on the fish and macroinvertebrates community, diversity and their reproduction. So salt should never be directly applied to a lake as it is harmful (and potentially toxic) to the fish, and it could also be considered an illegal discharge to waters of the state."

[Ed Carlson]

Ed you rock buddy...you seriously need your own show...I asked before, and if you choose not to answer, I understand. Are you a Fargo resident? Do you work at GM in Fargo? I'd like to swing by and say 'hi' sometime and meet the man behind the mythic posts...

Yup...I do live in the FM area..."In a van down by the river". Yup...I do work part time now at the place you think I do. It is hit and miss to catch me there these days. Be happy to meet you anytime you drop in, and chat it up. I'll try not to start any ruckus's.

[Ed Carlson]

Unreal. I find it amusing that a person can tenaciously go after those who leave trash on lakes and river bottoms, then turn around and sanction the use of salt on lakes.

Lets try to put this issue back into it's original context once. The only reason in the first place I recommended the use of 6 cups of solar salt was due to all the bantering about of using high powered deer rifles to shoot the ice to free up the stuck ice shack in question.

I did not see that as a smart move, and I still do not. So I put a less dangerous method forward as a safer alternative to gun play on a lake. I seen the whole deal headed in the direction of a nomination for the "Darwin Awards".

Otherwise, I would not use salt either, or have recommended it's use. A chipper bar and a handyman jack was my other recommendation if you look back. I would still recommend that first and foremost over bullets, or salt.

I will still hate on litterbugs and slobs all I can, and cause a ruckus to them given any opportunity I can, that will not likely change one bit.

[McGurk]

... The salinity concentration of urine from 1 wiz on the ice is approximately 7.4 pH to a 8pH per volume. ...

Hey guys! I think we just found an even easier way to get those skids loose, and salted peanuts and beer would actually be a neccessity for it to work!

[Ed Carlson]

LOL!

[Desperado]

I want to know the results if someone ever tries this experiment

get eight guys out there

four facing one side of the icehouse, four on the other side

give the guys on one side beer

give the guys on the other side beet juice

and see which side pops loose first

[mtbucket]

Runner Bomb

In a 6 oz. glass with rim salted with coarse sea salt add:

4 oz. beet juice

1 1/2 oz. tequilla

1/2 oz. lime juice

extra hot tabasco sauce to taste

Enjoy with a beer chaser for volume

Add to ice, repeat as necessary

(Disclaimer: May be classified as an illegal discharge. Please check federal, state and local ordinances for permit requirements.)

[Ed Carlson]

Back in "Da-Day", I had a buddy Phil K....and his family made some very potent Sugar Beet Wine...good stuff. After a year or two in the cellar, it got really good.

After a bottle or two of that Connoisseur Beet Juice I'm not sure anyone could even find the skids...let alone hit the skids. We used to partake of the sacred Beet Juice after duck hunting trips...Uff-Da.

[McGurk]

...give the guys on one side beer

give the guys on the other side beet juice

and see which side pops loose first

Dibs on the beer side. woof.

[Wanderer]

Second up on McGurk's side.

Thanks for all this info on the salt issue. I'm also one who has to deal with applying salt at a property for safety. The paranoia that goes along with that resposibility is not fun. We do have NURP ponds on our property to collect run off from our lots and let things settle out before any water flows into the watershed. I see more of those popping up in new construction.

[Desperado]

If we can get Ed's buddy Phil K to pony up a few bottles of that beet juice which has been aged in his cellar for a couple years . . .

I'LL TAKE THAT SIDE OF THE SHACK. I can have just about any kind of beer I want at anytime; a chance at some homemade sugarbeet wine might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

(all in the interest of science of course)

[leech~~]

Another informative post relegated down to Beer and Peanuts again!

[Sonicrunch]

Salt is the least of our problems in the Metro lakes. It is a problem, but there are bigger issues at hand.

I think it's funny how none of you ever complain about all of the petroleum that ends up in the water because of our boats.

Politics man. Politics.

[mtbucket]

The studies and research by the experts in the field of lake pollution indicate that chloride actually is one of the biggest issues facing metro lakes. The leading and most serious form of pollution is listed as phosphorus, with chloride, industrial solvents, nitrates, mercury, industrial solvents and chemicals and dangerous bacteria being other top contenders. The sources of these pollutants are typically identified by the researchers and experts in the field as agricultural and residential yard run off, industrial waste, municipal sewage treatment plants, residential septic systems, storm sewers and street run off, along with run off from other impervious surfaces. The source of many of the chemicals, acids, and heavy metals was purported to be from atmospheric fall out. I did not find petroleum from boat motor usage listed as a top issue in the many reports and studies that I read, but it also seemed to makes sense to me that there would be an adverse impact from it.

So, I did some research on the specific impact of boats on lake water quality and found some interesting info. Boating does have a serious impact on lake quality, the most serious of which may not be what you suspect, the petroleum residue.

Also the original poster of this thread did so in response to some people on a previous post implying that it was not really harmful to use salt to free a frozen in fish house. No one suggested that it was not harmful to use petroleum products to free the house, and I doubt that anyone in this forum would seriously advocate deliberately dumping petroleum products on the ice.

The following article sums up most of the points and findings of the various research materials and studies that I found on the subject:

IMPACTS OF MOTOR BOATS ON WATER QUALITY

The following is an overview of the potential impacts of motorized watercraft on water quality and

lake ecology from a literature review by Richard Osgood of Ecosystem Strategies in Shorewood, Minn. Much of the following came from Wagner (1990) but other authors are also cited. Most effects are related to boat density with some effects also related to boat size.

1). Increased turbidity, sediment resuspension, decrease in water clarity. - This issue relates to the

ability of motor boats to resuspend bottom sediments into the water column. The degree of impact is

related to motor size, water depth and sediment type. Nedohin and Elefsiniotis (1997) showed that a 10 hp

motor will mix down to a depth of 6 feet and a 50 hp motor can mix down to 15 feet. Yousef et al (1978)

showed that a 100 hp motor can re-suspend sediments of all sizes to water depths greater than 10 feet.

The density of motor boats can increase the amount of sediment resuspension with unsatisfactory

conditions found at 14 to 50 acres per motor.

2). Increased nutrient levels, algae growth - This issue is also related to sediment resuspension from

boat motors. Several studies have shown significant increases in phosphorus from re-suspended sediment

especially in shallow lakes where internal loading is high. There is some evidence that increased algae

growth can occur as a result of increased phosphorus concentrations from sediment resuspension. Again

this would most likely occur in shallow lakes or shallow arms of lakes.

3). Increased hydrocarbon concentrations. - According to Wagner (1990) most hydrocarbon

compounds emitted by gasoline engines do not persist in water. However, methyl tertiary-butyl ether

(MTBE) a gasoline additive and known carcinogen is soluble in water. Known potential sources of MTBE include recreational power boating (California EPA 1998). In fact, the use of fuel containing MTBE is

prohibited in most California lakes. Advances in engine design have reduced unspent fuel discharges.

This is an issue where smaller, older engines, especially two cycle engines cause more pollution. Larger

engines are generally more efficient. Hallock and Falter (1987) showed that for every liter of gasoline

consumed by a 2 cycle engine there was 8600 mg carbon, 300 mg total nitrogen and 1 mg of total

phosphorus in the exhaust. These discharges were considered to be small in comparison with other nutrient sources. Juttner et al (1995) showed that the toxicity of emissions from two-stroke engines persisted longer than four stroke engines, greater than 14 days compared with negligible after 14 days. Hydrocarbon pollution is generally greatest in areas of high boat concentration (marinas).4). Increased contamination by pathogens - only a factor from boats with sanitary facilities.

5). Shoreline erosion - This effect which logically might be related to boat size is often difficult to

separate from wind-generated waves and land activities, both of which also cause shoreline erosion.

6). Direct damage to rooted aquatic plants/dispersal of rooted plants - It is clear that boat motors

cause direct damage to rooted aquatic plants at water depths of three feet or less and it is likely that some

damage occurs to depths of 10 feet. Again, larger boats with larger motors would have an effect to deeper

depths. The cutting of pieces of plants by boat motors can allow the plants, which may be nuisance

species, to disperse.

Prepared by: David Buetow, MCDEP August 2, 2000

[Sonicrunch]

Well how aboot dat?

OK, salt in enemy #1. I'm on board. Now what?

First, I would like to state that there are two types of sewer systems. Storm and sanitary.

Road salt get in to the lakes directly via storm sewers.

Salt from your water softeners is so much less, that it is not the primary concern.

So lets focus on storm sewers.

[McGurk]

We could stop salting and just buy everyone snow tires with the money we would save. Heck, we wouldn't even need to plow the roads if the state bought snow plows for everyone's trucks and cleaned the roads as they made their normal trip to work. No salt needed, period.

Or we could always tear up all of the concrete and asphalt roads and parking lots and go back to gravel. No need to salt that. But then we'd be in trouble for putting oil down on the roads to keep the dust down after people complain that they have to wash their dirty cars all the time. It would run off into the lakes, too.

Could get rid of cars, I suppose, so we wouldn't need roads. We'd all have to walk or get horses, then. Oh wait, then there would be the excrement problem. Algae would be going crazy in the lakes.