MN Wolf Management - What would you do?

[goblueM]

Hypothesis, theory, fact - in that order.

Many people forget that Darwin's book, "The Theory of Evolution" is actually just a theory. The title even states this. Our society presents this in public schools as "near" fact. It's very misleading.

As a scientist, and a faithful Christian, I try to remain semi-neutral, but look closely at the preponderance of evidence.

We can't prove the existence of a "higher power", but there is substantial evidence to support the historical documentation.

There is, however, no historical documentation, or current science, to prove that evolution is occurring in any species, other than evolving drug resistance in certain bacterium.

I think it boils down to what we "want" to believe, or disbelieve, regardless of the evidence that stands before us.

At my age, anything below freezing is too darn cold! But that's just me. I'm getting soft and whiny!

Now, something completely different..... The wolf! The Larch! Naughty bits!

A) gravity is also "just a theory"

there's documentation of evolution in many many species, and direct observation of speciation in many others.

[CANOPY SAM]

Hey GoBlue. Glad you're looking into this one. I know you too are in the earth sciences field.

If I may, what species are you referring to? To my knowledge, there is not verifiable science to support a true "evolutionary" change in any living creature - other than the bacteria thing.

There are certainly examples of adaptation, but a fundamental change in either anatomy or physiology witnessed and recorded over time to indicate a true evolution of a species?

Not sure how one can dispute the existence of gravity? Can't see it, but there's certainly proof of it's constant presence.

[leech~~]

So "what goes up-must come down, it not a fact" Maybe you should start a theory thread so everyone can get back to Wolves here.

[jkcmj]

You don't have to understand my viewpoint... Just recognize that it's out there! I don't really care what happens to the wolf population in the end, so long as they don't get started in my deer hunting area. I do not want another APEX preditor hunting in my area, any more than the wolf would tolerate another pack in his area...

[TooTallTom]

You don't have to understand my viewpoint... Just recognize that it's out there! I don't really care what happens to the wolf population in the end, so long as they don't get started in my deer hunting area. I do not want another APEX preditor hunting in my area, any more than the wolf would tolerate another pack in his area...

Where do you hunt? As another apex predator, I'm just trying to stay out of your area...

[jkcmj]

I hunt my deer in the SE, cause I'm scared of the big bad wolf!

[TooTallTom]

I hunt way up north, and I tell you what: When you have a long walk into your stand and you hear a pack or two start singing right at the beginning, it does make the hair stand up.

[BobT]

I hunt way up north, and I tell you what: When you have a long walk into your stand and you hear a pack or two start singing right at the beginning, it does make the hair stand up.

Seeing or hearing them while hunting doesn't bother me much. Had one walk up to within 20 yards in 2006. Less than 3 minutes later my daughter nailed her first buck.

My brother had one walk up on him while he was sitting on the ground. Got to within just a few feet. It didn't even notice my brother until he moved one of his feet to get its attention. He said its eyes got as big as saucers with the deer in the headlights look and it turned and hightailed it out of there. My brother said he was definitely nervous through the whole event.

We go camping up north every year and a couple years ago they started howling at night, which was interesting until one started answering from very close range. Now that made our hair stand on edge.

[Bear55]

In my deer hunting experience, when a pack moves into our area the hunting can be very good at first as they move the deer around. After a day or so things can shut down very fast and stay that way for several days. Again that is when you have a large number of wolves in the area, if there happens to be 1 or 2 just cruising through then the effect is far less to none.

Most people think the deer leave the area but most of the time just lay low until the wolves move on. I have seen this a few times, a deer comes crashing through the woods and then freezes. The wolves are either hot on it's trail and the chase is on or the keep right on moving bye. The deer would often bed right then and there and wait a few hours for things to cool down, then get up and head for thick cover. Very fun to watch the whole thing unfold.

[TooTallTom]

If I'm up in my stand, or they're way off in the distance, that's no problem and I kind of enjoy looking/ listening. When I have a long ways to walk, and there are no trees to climb, the farther away from me they are the better.

I realize that I'm not exactly a regular item on their menu (And I'd probably know if I was...) but I'd just rather avoid any kind of misunderstanding.

[reinhard1]

i guess i'm not too worried about the wolves where i hunt. not that i'm carless or feel like i'm superman out there, but i just haven't heard of any attacks on a human by a wolf. i remember once there were four of us fishing on a lake near where i hunt north of duluth where we took 4 wheelers to get in. it was snowing and cold that day. big flakes with a little breeze.

i had my back against the wind [no shelters] when one of the guys said "look wolves"! i said yea right, figuring he was pulling my leg as usual. i did turn arround and sure enough there were about 6 wolves running right at us, but still a distance from us. one of the guys started to clap the gloves together and started to yell and we all joined in.

the lead wolf stopped and so did the rest, and turned arround and went the other way. now i dont know to this day if they thought we were deer or what. anyway we all had a few pulls of pre made manhattans and everything was fine. good luck.

[BobT]

I usually figure they aren't interested in me. Most will even abandon a kill if a human walked up on 'em. I used to see them moving around me when I was logging. Very smooth almost ghost-like animal in the forest. You can tell they belong there. I think I would be more cautios around a black bear than a wolf any day. I suppose if there was a hunting pack on the prowl and they were starving then one would have reason to be defensive. Starving these days they are not.

[TooTallTom]

reinhard1, that's a pretty cool story about them following you on the four wheelers. I wonder if they were just curious about you or maybe you hit the morning rush and they were all headed to work, or what? I think the noise would've put the off, but obviously not.

BobT, I agree that wolves are something to see in the woods. Partly because they make my hair stand up when they start howling. I don't spend much time thinking about them, but I'd rather not see them any closer than I have to. Starving, sick, feeling territorial pressure, those are all good ways to butt heads with a wolf/ pack. And I'd rather not, thanks.

I've heard a lot more stories about black bears that put me on edge than wolves, but those are mostly from bear hunters. It's in a similar vein to someone being poorwordusaged because the stove was hot when they touched it. What did you expect? Of course, maybe if we had wolf hunters there would be a similar amount of stories...

[reinhard1]

they didn't follow us in when we were on the four wheelers. this was later in the day while we were fishing there. i'll never forget that day. i think wolves are pretty special animals. good luck.

[Swimmer]

We need to train them to shoot 7mm Remingtons in order to protect their remaining territory that man takes from them everyday.

Seriously, I think the big woods are healthier with a robust wolf population. WIth the Moose getting sick (the Deer disease) the Wolf is just playing a part by thinning the sick and hopefully helping to prevent other Moose from contracting the disease. Of course they take a few deer, but the day a hunter bee-atches about a natural predator -- who needs the deer to survive -- lessoning his chances for a deer would be a sad day indeed. And they will take a few dogs and cats every year. That is the price of living where you live.

Yes to DNR Management. It is arguable that their populations are expanding into the farmlands around the big woods. A farmer who is suffering livestock loses should be able to contact the DNR and get a permit to shoot the offending animal(s). I also believe there should be a minimal managed wolf hunt. Not because I would enjoy it (they look/act to much like my dog) but because I don't want them getting too cozy with humans. In this case, a little fear of man would go a long way in keeping their populations from becoming addicted to man...like the Grizzlies used to be in Yellowstone (or was that Jellystone?).

[BobT]

Quote:

A farmer who is suffering livestock loses should be able to contact the DNR and get a permit to shoot the offending animal(s).

I would be willing to take a step further and not require the permit. They should be able to defend their livestock, dogs, cats, children, etc. This [PoorWordUsage] about not being able to kill a wolf that is attacking these things is for the birds and I'll stick my neck out right now and declare that there is no law in this land that will stop me from protecting my family from any predator, protected species or not. I'll take the consequences but of course, they would somehow have to know I did it first.

[caseymcq]

... This BullSchist about not being able to kill a wolf that is attacking these things is for the birds and I'll stick my neck out right now and declare that there is no law in this land that will stop me from protecting my family from any predator, protected species or not. I'll take the consequences but of course, they would somehow have to know I did it first.

You would be well within the law in doing so. The ESA provides for protecting yourself and/or another family member and/or another person.

Endangered Species Act of 1973, Section 11, Subsection 3:

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, it shall be a defense to prosecution under this subsection if the defendant committed the offense based on a good faith belief that he was acting to protect himself or herself, a member of his or her family, or any other individual, from bodily harm from any endangered or threatened species.

[TooTallTom]

There was a South Park episode dealing with this. You'd be surprised how many animals insisted on attacking the kids and their uncle when they were strolling through the woods, minding their own business, and taking target practice...

[EJ_Mac]

Quote:

There are plenty of people in Minnesota who would change the way they look at wolves over time if the wolf becomes a game animal.

Quote:

looks like the state has a pretty good plan in place now it is just a matter of having wolves delisted and allowing the MN DNR to do its job.

I agree with both statements and certainly hope it pans out this way. The pessimist in me says the "lets-eliminate-wolves-entirely" crowd will still be doing their thing. Even if that means not actually killing wolves, themselves, they'll still be advocating it, usually for no other reason than because dad hated 'em, granddad hated 'em, etc. Whether they like it or not, these people are the reason why wolves are still listed and not being managed by the state, already.

But though there will undoubtedly be a lot of hatred to overcome, the posts in this thread have generally been pretty reasonable and seem to have had some thought behind them, so it gives me more optimism than pessimism.

[crenglund]

Seven degrees below zero this morning. now that global warming is fixed we will have too many moose in our state Bring on warmer weather!

Bowfin always has good plans.

[BobT]

I was reading an article online at Outdoor Life and it talked about a study that is being conducted in Michigan related to the impact of wolves on the deer population. The study is in its infancy (only about two years running) so the data collected so far is sketchy and inconclusive but what has been collected might surprise you if it continues to hold true. If you're interested, the article is on the front page and is called "How Do Deer Die." You have to click the next button to advance to the next photo and continue reading the text.

[Spike76]

Excellent plan Bowfin,hopefully more will agree. I saw a timberwolf coming down the deer trail towards my stand, a couple of years ago. When you see them hunting during the day, tells me there are more around. For years you would only hear them, at night, but never see any. The last few years, there have been more sightings, during deer season.

[Spike76]

Excellent plan Bowfin,hopefully more will agree. I saw a timberwolf coming down the deer trail towards my stand, a couple of years ago. When you see them hunting during the day, tells me there are more around. For years you would only hear them, at night, but never see any. The last few years, there have been more sightings, during deer season. Every year the sun is moving farther north I have noticed through the years. There will always be climate change, sometimes hot, and sometimes cold, sometimes wet, and sometimes dry.

[Spike76]

Actually I should have stated that the sun appears to be moving farther north, but it's the earth that is changing. The earth is always changing.

[delcecchi]

Actually I should have stated that the sun appears to be moving farther north, but it's the earth that is changing. The earth is always changing.

I don't believe the earth's orbit or the position of the sun in the sky is changing.