Zone 3 APR

[PEATMOSS]

the people I talk to last night are pretty darn ignorant then .....

If you have ANYTHING you can document to refute what I have been saying, please post it.

You simply dig in your heels and assert that somehow Whitetail Deer are exempt from the laws of biology. Why do you keep peddling this garbage?

[Bear55]

Statistics are directly from B&C, the states that "flew right by us" are states like Iowa that literally had no negligable deer population.

Ok I give up, MN is right there with Iowa and anyone who says otherwise is crazy.

[james_walleye]

you cannot tell the background genetics of any deer by physical appearance . You ate assuming a 3 year 6 pointers genetics are inferior and with the genetic makeup of minnesotas deer that most likely is NOT the case. In all likelihood he has the same very fine genetics as the 10 pointer next to him. Bottom line, you cannot tell the background genetics if a deer by physical appearance. And that you cannot argue!

[james_walleye]

FYI, the "garbage" I spew comes directly from fills who have worked side by side with Lou on many different fronts. Let's see...... who should I believe.....these people who work with wildlife, or some guy on fishingmn......pretty easy call. I'm not pulling stuff straight out my ... like u would Luke to believe.

[PEATMOSS]

you cannot tell the background genetics of any deer by physical appearance . You ate assuming a 3 year 6 pointers genetics are inferior and with the genetic makeup of minnesotas deer that most likely is NOT the case. In all likelihood he has the same very fine genetics as the 10 pointer next to him. Bottom line, you cannot tell the background genetics if a deer by physical appearance. And that you cannot argue!

So, you are saying that if we have 100 3 1/2 year old deer that are 6-pointers and 100 3 1/2 year old deer that have 8 pts. plus that the trophy potential of each group is exactly the same? I respectfully disagree.

[B. Amish]

you cannot tell the background genetics of any deer by physical appearance . You ate assuming a 3 year 6 pointers genetics are inferior and with the genetic makeup of minnesotas deer that most likely is NOT the case. In all likelihood he has the same very fine genetics as the 10 pointer next to him. Bottom line, you cannot tell the background genetics if a deer by physical appearance. And that you cannot argue!

this isn't about individual deer. it's just not. on an individual level, nothing about high grading applies to the population as a whole.

this is about a population of deer. when you make the population follow rules for what lives and what doesn't, you'll have consequences. it's happened with sunfish in our lakes, musky nuts are worried about it happening to muskies. and it's been documented to happen with deer and apr's.

the brown and down theory has absolutely nothing to do with altering genetics. because every deer is treated exactly the same. if it's in range, it gets shot. there are no physical characteristics that drive the selection process of a brown and down hunter.

how can you keep dismissing high grading as a mute point? every where you look, biologists have the same fears about high-grading as i posted earlier. and these are real biologists that aren't hired by national deer organizations that may have a bias about what they preach to their biased audience, who employs said biologist through their memberships to said organization.

what do you want? for it to happen in mn before it's acknowledged? because it happened in Miss, but they have different deer than we do, it can't happen here? what happened in other states regarding high grading should be obvious that its a concern. and that's exactly what i am, CONCERNED!!

[james_walleye]

Can u argue that you know the genetic background of an individual deer? This rare 3 year old 6 pointer that I have never witnessed.?

[B. Amish]

huh?

[PEATMOSS]

James,

If I am a dairy farmer and I divide my herd in half, in one group, I send my best 50% of milk producers to market and in the other group I send my lower 50% producers to market, which group will likely produce more milk?

If I have an apple orchard of 200 trees and at 4 years I divide the orchard in half. On one side I cull the smallest 50% of trees and on the other side I cull the largest 50% of trees which side will likely yield more apples?

If I own a racehorse ranch and divide the horses into 2 groups, one group, I send the fastest 50% of the group to the glue factory, the other group, I send the slowest 50% to the glue factory. Which group do you think will yield more winning racehorses?

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL US ALL WHAT MAKES DEER EXEMPT FROM THE BASIC LAWS OF BIOLOGY

[james_walleye]

So explain to me why here in the city limits of Rochester, where the only hunting pressure for a longtime, has been bow pressure on large bucks. No one us going to shoot a 6 pointer of any age with what is running around. If gene grading hasn't occurred in this micro level in Minnesota, what makes you think it will happen on a macro level in Minnesota.

And u can assure you, for every biologist that thinks gene grading us s concern, you will find 2 who do not.

As far as your huh.... read above to see the context of that post.

[PEATMOSS]

Can u argue that you know the genetic background of an individual deer? This rare 3 year old 6 pointer that I have never witnessed.?

NO. On an individual basis, a 3 1/2 year old 6-pointer may well have the genetics to be a potential Booner. I'll gladly conceed that.

However, if we look at the probabilities over the entire herd, A 3 1/2 year old 6pointer is much less likely to be a potential Booner than a 3 1/2 year old 8 pointer. Look at the herd as a whole.

[B. Amish]

So explain to me why here in the city limits of Rochester, where the only hunting pressure for a longtime, has been bow pressure on large bucks. No one us going to shoot a 6 pointer of any age with what is running around. If gene grading hasn't occurred in this micro level in Minnesota, what makes you think it will happen on a macro level in Minnesota.

And u can assure you, for every biologist that thinks gene grading us s concern, you will find 2 who do not.

As far as your huh.... read above to see the context of that post.

so find me two biologists. you ask for proof, but have you got anything solid to say that it doesn't exist?

on a small level you won't see genetic influence because bucks travel. dispersement, and bucks and does are probably moving in and out of the city of rochester constantly. there is no isolation of the population to impact genetics.

on a large level however, like statewide, when everything has to follow the same rules, and you start to lose that outside influence on the inner populations, you'll see the influence of selecting on a physical characteristic rear its head.

[james_walleye]

You won't see it on a smaller level? They are probably moving in and out of the city limits? Pretty spotty arguement. In a smaller number of animals the effects should be quicker and more drastic.

Another curious thought, the people that bring up grading love to dote on that rare 3 year old 6 pointer, that may or may not be genetically inferior, and how it gets a free pass. As of yet I haven't seen anyone mention, as in the case if last year, the couple thousand genetically superior bucks that got a free pass. No one has mentioned the possible effects of breeding and genetics when it comes to that........hmmmmmm

[james_walleye]

Seems to me the difference is you have a pretty good idea of the background of everything in your example. Ya if I take 100 bucks that I know are inferior and breed them, we know what will happen. But this isn't a controlled experiment where we know the background of the subject. That is what is different.

[B. Amish]

You won't see it on a smaller level? They are probably moving in and out of the city limits? Pretty spotty arguement. In a smaller number of animals the effects should be quicker and more drastic.

spotty arguement? it's ecology 101.

[james_walleye]

Ok so the deer in the heart of the city are being affected by deer 20 mules away. Because that's about how far you have to go to get to any outside hunting pressure of note. Got ya......

[james_walleye]

I have one for u peat. You are given 100 race horses. The only background you have is that each came from good bloodlines, but you know nothing of the parents. But a couple are not up to spec. They aren't what you want. They aren't fast. But you breed them anyway with a couple females in which all you know about them is they came from good bloodlines as well, but also you don't specifically know the "parents". What will the outcome be?

[B. Amish]

Ok so the deer in the heart of the city are being affected by deer 20 mules away. Because that's about how far you have to go to get to any outside hunting pressure of note. Got ya......

glad you're catching on.

still waiting patiently for your 2 biologists and your facts to back up your rhetoric.

[james_walleye]

I will not name my sources on the internet. I will say again they have worked closely with Lou on different items. They told me most biologists agree that gene grading will not be an issue in mn. Some go so far as to say its inconceivable to see it in mn with the genetic base that is in place. I'll also say I couldn't care less if you believe it or not. The only reason I've posted this afternoon is because peat invited me back in after a personal attack.

[creepworm]

The park in the city limits is not a useable example at all. Hunting pressure in city limits is far less than it would be elsewhere.

[james_walleye]

Who's talking about a park??? I'm talking about a couple thousand deer within about a 15 mile radius in which no one will shoot a 6 pointer. Amish says that's still to small of a sample size. Um just curious what the threshold is? A county, couple counties? Zone 3? In which outside influences will not have enough effect.

[james_walleye]

I've said my peace on this. I am out on this topic. It's in the legislators hands now. We will see what happens.

[Jameson]

So explain to me why here in the city limits of Rochester, where the only hunting pressure for a longtime, has been bow pressure on large bucks. No one us going to shoot a 6 pointer of any age with what is running around. If gene grading hasn't occurred in this micro level in Minnesota, what makes you think it will happen on a macro level in Minnesota....

The bow hunters there are certainly targeting bucks that are all 3.5 plus. Maybe a couple 2.5 year olds. Hunters of Minnesota will be shooting all legal deer 1.5 years old and up. Also the bow hunters in Rochester are dealing with a decent sized herd and very few hunters, so it will take longer for the effects to show there compared to some of our Lottery areas where nearly every legal buck is killed each year.

[B. Amish]

james,

a 25 mile radius of rochester extends to about pine island to the north, plainview to the ne, st. charles to the east, almost to spring valley to the south, and to dodge center to the west.

amish

[james_walleye]

I just reread that Amish, it was a typo, I meant 15, with about 6-8 being Rochester proper. Everything on the outside of town is leased up to both bowhunted n goosehunters.