your opinion, big bucks but not huge??

[leechlake]

I have been lucky enough to be invited the last four years to a farm/ranch in South Dakota that is just north of Nebraska and two miles south of the Missouri River. It is cool territory with a lot of corn, bean, and alfalfa fields and big draws adjacent to the farm land. We have about 3000 acres to hunt. There are mostly white tails and some muleys

The farmer basically has a rule that if you aren't going to mount it don't shoot it. Every year we see multiple bucks that probably score 125-140 (they don't stand still for the scoring like hunting shows)which in my opinion are great bucks but really a bit shy of what I believe and the farmer believes is wall hanging material, especially if you already have let's say a 140 on the wall.

My question is this. Why don't we see HUGE bucks? Every year we see nice bucks but for the amount of selective harvest it seems they kind of stop growing any bigger, in general. For the past twelve years the guys I hunt with have hunted this land and not shot may bucks, maybe 2 a year. Their two neighbors do the same regarding what would be a version of QDM. In my opinion this is a hunting heaven.

Is it genetics? Food wise it is corn, beans, wheat, alfalfa.

I'm not asking the question "what is a trophy?" Just want to know others thoughts on why it seems the deer reach a peak size when it seems they have all the food and time to grow bigger.

[harvey lee]

I believe genetics plays a big part right along with food and maybe even more, mineral.

Mineral may be the missing link to the rack potential.

I believe I read once in a Boone and Crockett book once that only 1 in a million deer born will make the B&C book. I also believe that food, genetics and mineral play a huge role in this.

[sticknstring]

I'd guess the genetics for producing huge antlered bucks aren't predominant in that area. Sounds like good nutrition and a healthy age structure exist. There are a lot of places like that where a 150" is pretty darn rare. Talk to the rancher and see what his idea of a wall hanger is. I'm guessing those 130-140s fit the bill.

[Bear55]

I agree with harvey its probably a genetic and possibly nutrition/mineral thing and most deer in the area will only get so big. I am sure there are some that grow bigger in that area but they might be few and far between.

At some point you have to ask yourself if holding out for a 150-160 deer is a good idea when the area you hunt may not produce many or any of them in a given year.

[InTheNorthwoods]

There is nothing really to disagree with in any of the previous posts. There are many factors that can lead to not seeing deer bigger than a certain class. One of those factors that I think is worth mentioning, is that just because you don't see any bigger ones doesn't mean they aren't there.

Big, mature bucks are an entirely different breed than even those 3.5 year old bucks that go over 125". At some point at least a couple of those deer that are scoring over 125" will grow into something bigger.

Your situation sounds alot like some of the areas in Montana that are notorious for good numbers of "nice bucks" but that don't pump out many B&C size deer - but those areas still produce B&C deer on an annual basis.

[mabr]

I have family in central Iowa where the same thing is seen yearly. No bucks under 150 are allowed unless your a beginning hunter. Ive hunted there farm 4 seasons (drew tags)during bow 3 and gun 1. In all the hours on stand ive seen 1 shooter buck in the 160s but was not giving the chance at a shot(I just got in stand and hadnt even gotten my release on yet and he came through at 30 yards at 12:30). BUT, Ive never sat on stand and not seen at a minimum 5-10 120-130 class bucks. What happenes to all these young deer as they get older is my biggest question. They dont know either, as all there neighbors practice the same management as them.

There thoughts and mine now that ive hunted there more, is they are there, but they just dont make the mistakes the young buck do. They usually kill at least 2 buck a year on there land that meet their requirements. last year they took a 189 and another in the mid 160s. But these deer were taking on drives during december. They usually get a few pics of them on cameras but hardly ever set eyes on them without pushing them.

IMO they are just that smart! We know there out there, but they dont make many mistakes.

[B. Amish]

are any of the bucks that are taken aged? if they are and they turn out to be 3.5, then that's your answer as to why they're not getting bigger - they need to get older.

if they're aged at 6.5, then i'd say it's genetics.

if you don't know the age, you can only guess as to the reasons.

[B. Amish]

also, any trail cameras in action on the land. every year, i'll get about 15 different bucks on my camera. i hunt a lot and every year i'll see maybe 20% of those bucks during my time hunting. i never lay eyes on the other 80%. big and old bucks get big and old for a reason.

[InTheNorthwoods]

also, any trail cameras in action on the land. every year, i'll get about 15 different bucks on my camera. i hunt a lot and every year i'll see maybe 20% of those bucks during my time hunting. i never lay eyes on the other 80%. big and old bucks get big and old for a reason.

Which is another aspect I should have mentioned. I hunt an area that is probably very similar to that described in the beginning of this post. I used to see some nice deer around and kick up some pretty decent bucks pheasant hunting. I started hanging trail cameras, and it quickly became evident that those big bucks are very adept at hiding out from human sight. There are some very big boys that show up quite regularly on trail cam that never are seen. I have been trying for years to figure out what their habits and patterns are. I've killed several nice ones, but I haven't begun to figure out where they are outside of the rut.

[harvey lee]

I believe the larger trophy bucks move so much at night that unless one uses a trail camera, we will never see them during daylight hours unless it's the peak of rut when they throw caution to the wind a bit.

They are masters at never letting themselves be seen.

[Musky Buck]

Agree with all, we had a nice 12 pointer we just finished trying to get this season, we will try again with muzzy but this buck was nocturnal 8 of the 9 days of hunting or so it seemed, a week ago today my dad gets home and there he is at 9:00AM laying with a doe in the middle of our field, that was his only mistake and we weren't able to capitalize on it. Trailcamera's have really opened my eyes to what's around but then makes it so frustrating when you have 4 shootables and never see any of them in shooting light then the gunfire starts and you wonder if any went down already etc. I think the minerals are really key, I think in combination with age and nutrition is part of why Ottertail county produces so many trophy bucks. That quality black dirt soil in that county. Anyway, I know what you mean, expect to put a lot of hours in and diagnose that property to the fullest.

[Bear55]

Good stuff guys, I agree with many of one, once the deer reach a certain age a lot of time they have what it takes to die of old age. I know that is the fate of many old bucks in the northern bigwoods I hunt.

[WalleyeGod]

I agree with Harvey and those that talk about the big deer moving at night. Unless they get pushed out of the cattails, swamp or wherever he hides out they have the know to sit tight during daylight. They do rarely make a mistake. Our trail cams definately shows evidence of the night time activity. A friends cam had the big fella at 6:00 am opening morning out in front of his tree stand. Never seen him in 9 days of hunting and none of the neighbors had him hanging on the meat pole. Maybe during muzzleloader season. Will see.

WG

[MUSKY18]

I agree with genetics being the foundation for growing big trophy bucks, but think that a BIG reason for not growing them any bigger is minerals. I ready an article about the growth of whitetails and during antler development the deers body robs like 80% of the minerals from the body to use towards antler growth. Now, if they aren't getting the minerals into their body that they need to develop the antlers, then they will only be able to grow thier racks so big.

Do they have mineral blocks/stations out for the deer to hit? Don't know the laws for SD, so this might be considered baiting. But I bet if some mineral blocks were put out in early spring, you could watch the bucks flock to them.

[B. Amish]

this mineral thing is a bunch of hooey. it's been studied several times and proven to offer no advantage. the only reason deer hit those mineral sites is because of the salt.

[nonteepical]

salt is a mineral. ever been in a gravel pit and seen deer tracks and wondered why are deer in a gravel pit? mineral.

[harvey lee]

You got it nonteepical. I wonder why so many use it and why deer look for it?

Many areas have increased there rack size by using mineral and good feed. Selective harvest also helps.

[walterman]

It takes a lot of work and patience to kill a deer over 150"+ Some areas in SDakota are not capable of producing anything bigger than 120-140" 4x4's and 5x5's. IMO in most areas those are respectable deer. Genetics may play a small role, but forage, COVER, and nutrition play an even bigger role. While I have seen some dandy bucks along or near the missouri river. Times like now, ie. the rut, leave a lot of bucks VERY vulnerable to hunters especially when you can often times see miles in any direction. JMO

[MUSKY18]

Mineral requirements for antler growth exceed those of normal skeletal growth and maintenance (studies have shown that deer are constantly undergoing skeleton rebuilding). In some species, antler requirements for minerals may be 3 times as high as that required to maintain the skeleton. Mineral demand for antler growth is satisfied from both the diet and from bone resorption.

Diet provides the greatest proportion of calcium and phosphorus for antler growth and mineralization. However, antler growth will never exceed genetic potential, even if a deer consumes these elements above optimum levels. During times of peak antler growth, antler demand for minerals forces the thyroid gland to release calcitonin; this hormone allows the deer to "steal" minerals from its internal bone structure. This process is known as "physiological" or "temporary" osteoporosis. Bones such as the ribs and shoulder blades contribute the most to this temporary mineral deficiency, and they may lose as much as 40% of their calcium content while antlers are hardening. However, by September, deer can fully replace the minerals borrowed from their skeleton.

Guess according to this, genetics are the main factor.

[B. Amish]

You got it nonteepical. I wonder why so many use it and why deer look for it?

Many areas have increased there rack size by using mineral and good feed. Selective harvest also helps.

where?

[jnorm1984]

Mineral stations sure are not a cure all for growing bigger antlers, do you think deer would visit them enough to make an impact? I dont know.. I always thought that the soil in an area played a big role in supplying the minerals need for critters. What do yo think?

[BLACKJACK]

are any of the bucks that are taken aged? if they are and they turn out to be 3.5, then that's your answer as to why they're not getting bigger - they need to get older.

if they're aged at 6.5, then i'd say it's genetics.

if you don't know the age, you can only guess as to the reasons.

B Amish has the answer, age a couple of them and see how old they are.

Also, I know its big country out there, but with rifles and pickups, if a big deer is spotted, its going down. Where we pheasant hunt SW of Aberdeen, I've seen deer on the run with pickups and rifles blazing, not a pretty sight.

[Bear55]

Genetics may play a small role, but forage, COVER, and nutrition play an even bigger role.

See I tend to think a little of the opposite. Of the three main factors (age, nutrition, genetics) I think nutrition comes in 3rd. To me age is a big factor and and genetics not far behind. I only believe this because I hunt NE MN bigwoods, there isn't great food up there or any crop land to speak of but there are giant deer roaming those woods. They only get that way because of age of genetics, very little what you would call high quality food available.

[slimngrizzly]

I agree with you Bear... 1) AGE- without it, you have nothing. You may get some high scoring younger deer but if you want true "trophys", AGE is a necessity!

2) Genetics-Some deer with NEVER be big, Period. I know this does not go by large goegraphic regions either. One farm I watch closely has (3) 5 1/2 year old bucks on it (that I know of) one is a wide 160" 10pt, one is a narrow 145" 13 pt, and one is about a 125" 8 pt that weighs about 300 lbs. The "big 10" scored 147 as a 3 1/2 year old, and the fat 8 point scored 114 as a 4 1/2 yr old. My point is these deer are the same age with the same food and minerals available to them. The 10 was geneticaly "born" big, the 8 never will be!

3) Nutrients- I think its importants to have enough good nuterients. Here in central MN our deer have it all MOST times of the year. A deer can only use so much nutrient... about 19% protien for example and anything more is overkill. I guess I think nutrition is important and its good to supplement minerals in to a herd, but you cant blame seeing an older, small antlered deer on lack of nutrients... some of that is just out of our control.

I guess in the river hills of Greory Co, SD... perhaps they do lack some nutrition, but I would bet they dont have a great gene pool maybe? I would have cameras out, pick the sheds, and try to figure out how old some of the bucks are. If you know youve got 5, 6 , or 7 year old bucks there.... then id say reguardless of the antler size, youve got your trophys!!! A truly mature buck is a TROPHY in my opinion whether hes 125 or 185!

[TruthWalleyes]

I was just reading in a magazine that....like Human Mothers...Their nutrition is the key to a healhy deer, and a healthy rack. If a pregnant doe is malnurist in the last few months of the pregnancy, their young will not be properly and completely healthy. It will have a reduced rack size, and will not grow to the potential of the buck that bread the doe.

Also, nutrition of the young deer will play a major role....Just start thinking about human nutrition and how important it is for our babies.