Why Cougars can't stay in MN too long.

[brittman]

Well I guess the one thing good about wolves is the pack rules over any lions trying to live in their territory.

From the JacksonHole News and Guide

Quote:

The researcher also showed a map of cougar movements in Yellowstone both before and after wolf reintroduction. Whereas cougars were spread out over the landscape prior to wolf reintroduction, afterward, the cats’ territory constricted to areas with steeper terrain.

Despite their formidable size, strength, agility, and claws, cougars are still no match for a pack of wolves. “It appears that the advantage is to the wolf,” Quigley said, explaining that wolves are continuously moving and exploring new territory, making an encounter with a cougar much more likely.

Where wolves killing cougars is not all that rare, he’s only confirmed one instance where a cougar killed a wolf.

“There is some very strong repulsion happening,” said Quigley. “The jury is still out, but two years from now if no females fill in the Buffalo Valley, I’m going to point to wolf effects.”

[schmoe147]

shoot them both. just my opinion

[Ufatz]

Yeah but Schmoe, that's so yesterday's news! I mean, a hundred years ago that's how people thought-not today. That sort of thinking wiped out the Passenger pigeon and almost wiped out buffalo. Wood ducks used to be scarce in MN. There were no where near as many deer as today.

The old "blast anything that moves" is just not cool.

[Surface Tension]

If that could be applied to MN then when wolf numbers were way down we would have had more cougar sightings.

Of coarse the internet wasn't invented yet so word of cougar sightings didn't get around either.

Whitetails are adaptable and can live close to humans. Some say that they even move close to human activity to get away from wolves. Maybe the cats are doing the same thing.

Wolves being protected for so long have lost the fear of man. We hear of wolf dog attacks close to where humans live.

I remember not long ago the excuse to close off huge tracks of land in Voyageurs National Park was because wolves can't live in close proximity to man let along his presence in the woods.. I hope that falsehood has been put to rest.

Maybe natures creatures change their habits according to how they interact with each other and man isn't to blame for everything.

[Ufatz]

Well,I can tell you I have seen wolves that were as tame as a neighborhood dog. They would wander around and the dogs would cringe and hide up by the doorways to their houses, the wolves would sometimes just sit and watch and sometimes just walk right along the roadways. We had a big black wolf that used to sit in the meadow behind our Yukon cabin just to watch what we did I guess. So yes, they can become VERY habituated. Generally speaking it ends up being not good for them in the final analysis.

They are a strange and special creature but they are a WILD and sometimes SAVAGE creature too. And don't you forget it! ha ha.

[NaturesRespect]

its sad that ppl think its a good thing to kill cayotes, wolves, cougars, and so on because they prey on whitetail and game animals. ppl only believe this because they become greedy on hunting and only want the best for them so eliminating predators will increase their success of game animal harvest, sounds very greedy to me.

this kind of thinking is why there are few cougars in MN this kind of thinking is why soon there will be few wolves and yotes in the future.

we are not benifitting anything from eliminating predators, let nature take care of it by means of carrying capacity and disease spread wich should bring those predator populations down.

we are repeating the past again by trying to eliminate predators to increase game population wich did not work.

[DonBo]

we are repeating the past again by trying to eliminate predators to increase game population wich did not work.

Ummm, excuse me? There are WAY more wolves in MN (and probably lions too) than there has ever been. Are we trying to eliminate them? No. Would we like the option of controlling them to lessen confrontations? Yes. Right now that's not an option, and IMO it should be.

[goblueM]

lets be careful before applying a finding from yellowstone to northern minnesota. different biome, different predator-prey relationships, different land use, and different topography.

I'm not saying it wouldnt hold true here as well, but just urging to be cautious in our thinking

[nolte]

ppl think its a good thing to kill cayotes, wolves, cougars, and so on because they prey on whitetail and game animals.

No, I think it's a good thing to kill wolves because they are a PITA. I am with Donbo, I just want the states to have the option to control the population or remove problem animals. In every other animal, state agencies have a management plan.

We aren't living in the 1800s anymore. This notion of having a balanced ecosystem where everything magically balances out for the best is a farce. Once we started controlling fires, building hydrodams and infrastructure the natural world completely changed forever. With these changes, we GREATLY improved our standard of living.

Wolves and other predators, don't just prety on sick and wounded animals. They take whatever is available and susceptible, which many times are fawns/birthing mothers. If we want to have stable game populations we need to manage for all species as best we can. If we have an unregulated predator species, it only creates a much greater chance for boom/bust cycles of game populations.

[Musky Buck]

With due respect nature respect your family as well as mine is part of the expanding population in Minnesota destroying critical habitat. Actually, rereading your post you need to get out of Blaine more often. Eliminate the predators, dude there is no closed season on coyotes and that's been the way for a long time, so why are many areas overpopulated with them ? No wolf season, yet, so you'd be happier seeing the moose population go to extinction, predator prey baby, that's mother nature. A lot of the issues are "man made" so to speak and I'm assuming you are a man nature but you aren't a fraction of the problem, everyone outside your circle of homies is the problem. Dude we must control critter populations as there are 5 million of us living amongst them or do they live among us. If you want your way Nature buy (you likely already have done this)) but buy a huge chunk of land, post it and let mother nature run it's course on it.

[BobT]

This doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Humans have invaded this area and as a result the other creatures are forced to adapt. We never adapt to them but that's the advantage of being at the top of the food chain. I don't agree that we should be destroying other predators on sight but at the same time I don't agree we should let "nature run its course" either. If you believe the latter, I wondder if you'd feel the same way if nature decided to take one of your children. The more the predator population grows in the confined spaces we leave them after our urban sprawl, the greater to potential for human-wild predator interaction. Despite being at the top of the food chain, without our weapons we are at the bottom and extremely vulnerable. A deer would be threatening to us if we didn't have the ability to make weapons and they were smart enough to realize it.

[eyeguy 54]

Man oh man, I don't care much about the wolves and cougars eating the deer, I do care about them going after pet dogs and humans!!! Sure hope they figure out how to control them.

[Duffman]

I don't agree we should let "nature run its course" either. If you believe the latter, I wondder if you'd feel the same way if nature decided to take one of your children.

When has a wolf or mountain lion EVER taken a child in this state???

[Duffman]

Quote:

Jack Russell chases mountain lion up a tree

Owner says the tiny dog probably "figured it was just a cat"

A 150-pound mountain lion was no match for a squirrel-chasing terrier on a farm in eastern South Dakota.

Jack the Jack Russell weighs only 17 pounds, and yet he managed to trap the cougar up a tree on Tuesday.

Jack's owner, Chad Strenge, told The Argus Leader that the dog "trees cats all the time," and that the plucky terrier probably "figured it was just a cat."

Professor Jonathan Jenks, who tracks cougar migration patterns, says hunters usually need two or three hounds to chase a lion up a tree. He says the cat probably wasn't hungry enough to attack Jack.

Strenge used a shotgun to knock the mountain lion from the tree and -- assisted by Jack -- chased and fatally shot it.

Arden Petersen, of the wildlife division of Game, Fish and Parks, told The Madison Daily Leader that no charges will be filed.

By Associated Press

[DonBo]

When has a wolf or mountain lion EVER taken a child in this state???

Not happened in this state, but in California, a state that recently banned the hunting of cats, lions frequently take hikers and other outdoor type people. You hear about it a couple times a year.

Just one more reason to put a limited season on them, let them know who IS at the top of the food chain.

[Duffman]

Just one more reason to put a limited season on them, let them know who IS at the top of the food chain.

A limited season on cougars, in MN???

[brittman]

Biomes different sure, but both are similar in that you have very remote/wild land that butts up to civilization.

ND refused to admit there were lions in ND,now they admit there is a viable breeding population in the badlands. There is a quota hunt zone and this year 8 lions of the 10 quota have already been taken. How many other lions are killed if they set up too close to the Bighorn sheep lambing areas? Each year 0 - 3 lions are killed East of the Missouri river where they are not protected. Pheasant hunters and deer hunters account for these kills.

20 - 30 years ago as wolves expanded their range, there were really no lions crossing into MN. Well now they do via SD BlackHills and ND Badlands. They do not last long in MN. Wolves push them out or kill them before they can establish a territory.

Wolves are out of control in MN now and need more intensive management similar to bears. Bears are hunted hard and while the population is maintained at a reasonable level, they have not disappeared.

[Elia]

DonBo,

There is disturbing irony and contradiction between your recent post and the quotation that ends all your posts.

As a sportsman, you fear being negatively stereotyped, yet you state we should hunt lions to "remind them who IS at the top of the foodchain." Is this why you hunt? Is hunting about establishing dominance? How can you possibly take dominion over a creature that cant understand the concept?

Nothing about sport hunting has anything to do with "dominance". Dominance, and its synonom "superiority" are not established via killing. Natural selection (evolution) gave us "dominance" over animals millions of years ago when it gave us the more powerful brain and the capacity for abstract and conceptual thought.

I think you should change your quotation (or the nature of your posts), before you add to an unfair stereotype of hunters.

[DonBo]

DonBo,

There is disturbing irony and contradiction between your recent post and the quotation that ends all your posts.

As a sportsman, you fear being negatively stereotyped, yet you state we should hunt lions to "remind them who IS at the top of the foodchain." Is this why you hunt? Is hunting about establishing dominance? How can you possibly take dominion over a creature that cant understand the concept?

Nothing about sport hunting has anything to do with "dominance". Dominance, and its synonom "superiority" are not established via killing. Natural selection (evolution) gave us "dominance" over animals millions of years ago when it gave us the more powerful brain and the capacity for abstract and conceptual thought.

I think you should change your quotation (or the nature of your posts), before you add to an unfair stereotype of hunters.

All I was trying to say is when animals are hunted, they tend to give a bit of respect to the hunter. Without hunting they lose fear of man, that's when they start to become a real problem.

Please don't try to read into it any more than that. Dominance and superiority are your words, not mine.

[JimBuck]

Some interesting and valid points on both sides of the issue here. Wild animal encounters are something that is going to become more and more common as urban sprawl increases and animals are pushed closer and closer to human civilization.

For me, part of enjoying the outdoors and hunting is being out of the comfort zone and no longer being at the top of the food chain. The encounters I've had with predators have been humbling (although sometimes frightening) experiences and I wouldn't take those encounters back for anything. When I step foot into the wild I constantly remind myself that this is no longer my home turf and I need to respect territory and bounds of animals.

Like most, I don't like hearing about animals being a nuisance or a threat to humans. But I do feel fortunate as a Minnesotan to live in a state that is so full of wildlife and to have the ability to roam the same forests as cougars, wolves, bears etc. Just my .02 cents.

[LightningBG]

A limited season on cougars, in MN???

Come on....

Is that really what you thought he was trying to say? There are 2 separate paragraphs. The quote refers to large predators, the first paragraph is a reference to California lions and the third refers back to MN. Come on.

[Surface Tension]

Elia, you have an interesting point.

"How can you possibly take dominion over a creature that cant understand the concept? "

In the case of wolves not fearing man. We might believe that is because the wolf hasn't been hunted.

I would offer that up as true but not be because the wolf has learned anything.

It comes down to genetics. Remove a wolf that feels confident close to man that wolf is out of the gene pool.

When repeated over and over a selective process begins. You have less wolves that don't fear man and you end up with wolves that because they kept their distance fear man. You better believe that when you take man out of the sequence with wolves the most aggressive will carry their genes on.

Remember that its not the biggest and baddest wolf that is Alpha, it is the one that thinks he is and he is the one doing all the breeding.

Fact, dogs came from wolves. Man didn't take a wolf pup and tame him. He took the least aggressive wolves and breed them. He did this over and over. He also breed them to be intelligent. Wolves aren't intelligent, we can make them to be but then you'd have a dog. Now a dog that is hitting my garbage can will learn quick to run away when he seems me coming at him. A wolf isn't so bright because we let them.

Why are we hearing of wolf attacks on dogs now and didn't hear about then 30 years ago. Was it because there were less wolves or is it because we let it happen by thinking close encounters with wolves is cool and wolves should live unchecked by, well,,, the most intelligent mammal in the planet.

A wolf isn't impressed that I can spell Mississippi, can fix my broken down car. Mans intelligence is that he can rule over the beast. Can we do that and still live with wild animals? Yes but we can't let them go unchecked either.

We've let the selective process get out of hand with wolves and it'll take time to get that back to where it should be. Not by killing all the wolves but by selecting the ones that don't care if they get to close. A wolf should run away in the presence of man. We can do that and have just as many wolves that we have right now.

If you don't believe that then lets try it and say we're conditioning wolves to fear man. Same out come.

[Duffman]

Not happened in this state, but in California, a state that recently banned the hunting of cats, lions frequently take hikers and other outdoor type people. You hear about it a couple times a year.

Just one more reason to put a limited season on them, let them know who IS at the top of the food chain.

[Duffman]

It comes down to genetics. Remove a wolf that feels confident close to man that wolf is out of the gene pool.

When repeated over and over a selective process begins. You have less wolves that don't fear man and you end up with wolves that because they kept their distance fear man. You better believe that when you take man out of the sequence with wolves the most aggressive will carry their genes on.

Somebody was watching the National Geo channel this week.

[NaturesRespect]

well im not sure wat to say im just speaking from what i hear alot about ppl i have met and some things i hear that the only reason they hate cougars and yotes and such is because they kill deer and eat them or scare them away. such as ppl wanting to get rid of them on their land because they are scarring deer or killing them. im not sure just sad to see that ppl are killing animals in MN that are hard to find like the cougar

why do you hate them? because they are killing and eating all my deer...

i hear this alot

man if i saw a cougar man dat be amazing to watch dont u think? yea if i saw it id kill it... why? because i can. but theres barley in MN! so..........

i also hear this alot when i asked a few ppl about cougars in MN