Why is Punto in the Majors still?

[Big Dave2]

I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

The last time I checked I thought pitchers played on defense?

[Big Dave2]

I'm being as serious as a heart attack. The D truly has not gotten the twins very far in the playoffs the last several years. Defense is very important for little leaguers but I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

Good defense is what got the Twins TO the playoffs.

[fishyguy]

I'm being as serious as a heart attack. The D truly has not gotten the twins very far in the playoffs the last several years. Defense is very important for little leaguers but I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

Greebs,

I see you still don't think defense is important but you have not responded to my post that showed the defensive standings of the last 5 WS champs. They all were good defensive teams. What else would you like? Would you like me to go back further? I can find all kinds of stats to prove my point, in addition to probably getting 31 of 31 managers to agree defense is very important. Lets look at the Twins WS champion years? In 1987 the Twins were the #1 ranked defensive team. In 1990 they were #6. So I guess you can say defense has contributed to bringing the Twins championships.

Still don't believe? What else should I dig up?

[greebs]

"Greebs,

I see you still don't think defense is important but you have not responded to my post that showed the defensive standings of the last 5 WS champs. They all were good defensive teams. What else would you like? Would you like me to go back further? I can find all kinds of stats to prove my point, in addition to probably getting 31 of 31 managers to agree defense is very important. Lets look at the Twins WS champion years? In 1987 the Twins were the #1 ranked defensive team. In 1990 they were #6. So I guess you can say defense has contributed to bringing the Twins championships.

Still don't believe? What else should I dig up?"

you don't need to dig anything up. it sounds like we are in agreement here. I'm not sure where you are getting that I don't think defense is important? I'll definitely take a cy young pitcher over a golden glove pitcher but I don't think I've ever posted that I think defense is unimportant.

[fishyguy]

Partial apology Greebs. I think I may have mistakenly attributed some previous comments to you that should not have been. I apologize for that. That said, my tone may have been incorrect but the point remains the same about defense and championships. It isn't important only in Little league.

[JBMasterAngler]

It's not our defense that has cost us in the playoffs. It's our offense turning into garbage come october that allows us to lose every year.

[Juan Grande]

Punto is the perfect utility player. He can pinch run and can play three positions on the infield. If he could hit even a little bit I'd say he's a starter, but you can't depend on him in the clutch (or with bases empty for that matter). I love the guy, but he should not be the starting third baseman on a contending team.

[greebs]

big dave - of course pitchers are on the field with the defense but do you seriously consider a pitcher as simply one of nine defensive players out there who's main role is to field bunts and to cover 1b on occasion? dude, we ain't talking t-ball here. if you think that when someone says that they prefer a strong pitching staff over team defense and you want to argue that pitching and defense are basically one in the same then you've got a bit to learn about the game.

when you have pitching tryouts for the little leaguers that you coach do you simply have them field grounders or do you maybe watch them throw a few pitches to help you pick who will pitch for you? when your pitchers warm up before their turn, do they field grounders or do they actually throw some practice pitches? does your league have restrictions on how often a kid can pitch in a certain number of days? are the restrictions based on how many pitches he's throw or is it based on how may grounders he's fielded? does the league have a restriction on how many times a kid can play 1b, 2b, etc.?

have you ever taken a look at pitcher stats? fielding percentage typically isn't what people look at and those pitchers with the big contracts win ball games and get the big contracts with their pitching not their fielding. you go ahead and take pitchers who have a good glove and I'll take the cy young candidates and we'll see who's team wins most of the games and then maybe you'll better understand what I meant when I said I'll take strong pitching over strong defense.

[Big Dave2]

big dave - of course pitchers are on the field with the defense but do you seriously consider a pitcher as simply one of nine defensive players out there who's main role is to field bunts and to cover 1b on occasion? dude, we ain't talking t-ball here. if you think that when someone says that they prefer a strong pitching staff over team defense and you want to argue that pitching and defense are basically one in the same then you've got a bit to learn about the game.

when you have pitching tryouts for the little leaguers that you coach do you simply have them field grounders or do you maybe watch them throw a few pitches to help you pick who will pitch for you? when your pitchers warm up before their turn, do they field grounders or do they actually throw some practice pitches? does your league have restrictions on how often a kid can pitch in a certain number of days? are the restrictions based on how many pitches he's throw or is it based on how may grounders he's fielded? does the league have a restriction on how many times a kid can play 1b, 2b, etc.?

have you ever taken a look at pitcher stats? fielding percentage typically isn't what people look at and those pitchers with the big contracts win ball games and get the big contracts with their pitching not their fielding. you go ahead and take pitchers who have a good glove and I'll take the cy young candidates and we'll see who's team wins most of the games and then maybe you'll better understand what I meant when I said I'll take strong pitching over strong defense.

Dude! Once again you don't get it.

When I say that a pitcher is a defensive player I am not talking about fielding. I am stating that good pitching is a huge part of good defense. How good is your defense going to be if your pitcher is getting peppered all over the field?

You stated you would take good pitching over good defense any day. What I am saying is that they are one in the same. They all work in unison to make a defensive unit. Pitchers are not offensive players they are defensive. You can't have a good defense without a good pitcher.

[B. Amish]

there are three aspects to baseball.... hitting, pitching, and defense.

pitching and defense are not the same.

[fishyguy]

there are three aspects to baseball.... hitting, pitching, and defense.

pitching and defense are not the same.

Correct, but good defense makes for better pitching and good pitching makes for better defense. They are directly related.

[Big Dave2]

there are three aspects to baseball.... hitting, pitching, and defense.

pitching and defense are not the same.

How can you say that? Is it not the job of the pitcher to keep the other team from scoring runs? Isn't that the same job the other defensive players have?

[B. Amish]

How can you say that? Is it not the job of the pitcher to keep the other team from scoring runs? Isn't that the same job the other defensive players have?

I can say that because when anyone else on the planet talks about what it takes to be a good baseball team, they always mention pitching AND defense.

they are not the same. related - of course. but not the same at all.

[Big Dave2]

I can say that because when anyone else on the planet talks about what it takes to be a good baseball team, they always mention pitching AND defense.

they are not the same. related - of course. but not the same at all.

In my opinion, they are all defensive players with a different skill set. A pitcher has a different skill set than a 1st baseman and a 1st baseman has a different skill set than a shortstop or a center fielder. All are important to make up a good defensive team.

[bobbymalone]

hey let's argue semantics like a bunch of lawyers. that sounds like fun.

[greebs]

Minnesota

IP H R ER BB K HR WHIP Season ERA

F. Liriano 7.0 8 2 2 2 7 0 1.29 3.17

M. Guerrier 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0.95 1.71

J. Rauch (L, 1-1) 1.0 2 1 1 0 0 1 1.22 3.00

Pitches-strikes - F Liriano 112-73; M Guerrier 16-9; J Rauch 14-9.

Ground balls-fly balls - F Liriano 12-5; M Guerrier 2-1; J Rauch 0-3.

Batters faced - F Liriano 31; M Guerrier 4; J Rauch 4.

Here's the line from last night's game. hmmm I see an awful lot of PITCHING stats here and no mention of how may DEFENSIVE plays were made by Liriano, Guerrier and Rauch. I don't see anything like this for Cuddyer, Young, Hardy, etc., etc. If pitching is the same as defense, why do they have these separate stats for pitchers only? Wouldn't Rauch's pitch that Swisher knocked out of the park be listed as an error if pitchers are just another defensive player out there on the field like the other 8 defensive positions?

[hcmpls1]

I agree with you Greebs.

The game consists of pitching, offense and defense. A pitcher becomes a defensive player once he throws the ball. Even with that said, if there's a pop up to the infield, how many times is a pitcher called off? 99.9% of the time. Do you see pitchers going out of their way to get a grounder or do they typically let their infield take care of the play? That’s what I thought…

Pitchers have fielding stats just like any other position, however, unless they won the gold glove numerous times you don’t hear a lot about their defensive skills.

So Big Dave, to answer your absurd question, why are pitchers paid so much, it isn’t to be defensive fielding experts. They are paid to pitch every fifth day. Their defensive abilities do not win games. Kind of like Punto’s offensive skills. Period. End of story.

[bobbymalone]

you I'm right, you're wrong, period, end of story guys do realize you are arguing what you have personally defined the meaning "defense" to be, right?

Let me math it out for you guys:

1. pitching + fielding = stopping the offense

2. stopping the offense = defense

3. defense = pitching + fielding

4. pitching does not equal fielding

[hcmpls1]

you I'm right, you're wrong, period, end of story guys do realize you are arguing what you have personally defined the meaning "defense" to be, right?

Let me math it out for you guys:

1. pitching + fielding = stopping the offense

2. stopping the offense = defense

3. defense = pitching + fielding

4. pitching does not equal fielding

Sounds like a pretty good explanation but I don't see that language in the MLB rule book. Thus, like everyone else’s opinion, your explanation is also a personal opinion.

[JBMasterAngler]

Nick + Punto = Minnesota Twins player

[bobbymalone]

Sounds like a pretty good explanation but I don't see that language in the MLB rule book. Thus, like everyone else’s opinion, your explanation is also a personal opinion.

i think you are close to getting it, but you're not quite there.

and BTW since you want so desperately to argue the semantics of "defense" look to page 15 of the MLB rule book, which I think is the entirety of Big Dave's point:

"The DEFENSE (or DEFENSIVE) is the team, or any player of the team, in the field."

[hcmpls1]

Read my comments.... I stated a pitcher becomes a defensive player after he releases the ball...

[Big Dave2]

So Big Dave, to answer your absurd question, why are pitchers paid so much, it isn’t to be defensive fielding experts. They are paid to pitch every fifth day. Their defensive abilities do not win games. Kind of like Punto’s offensive skills. Period. End of story.

I never said anything about pitchers being fielding experts. Thier defensive abilities DO win ball games. Thier defensive ability is PITCHING. Pitching is a part of defense. I don't know why you don't get that. Every sport has 2 parts, offense and defense, pitchers always have and always will play on defense. They are defensive players no matter if they ever field a single ball in thier career. Any baseball team would field a pretty poor defense without a pitcher.

[Big Dave2]

Read my comments.... I stated a pitcher becomes a defensive player after he releases the ball...

So...........he's an offensive player before he releases the ball?

[Big Dave2]

Minnesota

IP H R ER BB K HR WHIP Season ERA

F. Liriano 7.0 8 2 2 2 7 0 1.29 3.17

M. Guerrier 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0.95 1.71

J. Rauch (L, 1-1) 1.0 2 1 1 0 0 1 1.22 3.00

Pitches-strikes - F Liriano 112-73; M Guerrier 16-9; J Rauch 14-9.

Ground balls-fly balls - F Liriano 12-5; M Guerrier 2-1; J Rauch 0-3.

Batters faced - F Liriano 31; M Guerrier 4; J Rauch 4.

Here's the line from last night's game. hmmm I see an awful lot of PITCHING stats here and no mention of how may DEFENSIVE plays were made by Liriano, Guerrier and Rauch. I don't see anything like this for Cuddyer, Young, Hardy, etc., etc. If pitching is the same as defense, why do they have these separate stats for pitchers only? Wouldn't Rauch's pitch that Swisher knocked out of the park be listed as an error if pitchers are just another defensive player out there on the field like the other 8 defensive positions?

Goaltenders in Hockey have thier own stats, are they not a part of the defensive part of the game? Quarterbacks have different stats than Runningbacks and they both have different stats than wide recievers, are they not all part of the offense?

They are all just different positions thats all.