Advice for selling photos

[Spearing Machine]

This seems like an odd question to me but I know that many of you have dealt with this before I know some of you would have some good advice. My mom recently was bragging up my photos to some co workers and now they are interested in purchasing a few for their homes. I am willing to do that as long as I add my name to the photos. So, my question is being that I am NOT a pro what is acceptable to charge. I am not at all out to make a living with this but they said they are willing to pay me for good work. The one thing that makes this a little different is that they will print them and cover the that price themselves. So is about $20 for an 8x10 and $15 for a 5x7 too much to ask?? Is it too low?? I guess it all depends on the person and how much they are willing to pay too.

[mmeyer]

Well, first of all, how do you know they will be printing an 8x10 instead of a 16x20 for example? Are you selling them a digital file? I sell my digital files for $25.00 but that's only after they buy a package(we're talking portraits here). I think $20 for an 8x10 is not enough but like you said, it depends on who they are and what they are willing to pay. I would sell them the print itself then you have control over what happens to the file from that point on and you don't give up future income possibilities.

That's just my opinion and I'm sure others will chime in as well.

Congrats on the sales, by the way! I've never sold a wildlife print so that's cool!

[Steve Foss]

Jeremy, when it comes to individual image sales, I don't like to send them the digital file. For the simple reason that there's no telling how many prints they are going to make. You can certainly include a printed or e-mailed legal release that specifies such things, saying, in this case, that the bearer of the file has been granted license to print a SINGLE print at 8x10 or whatever size they buy from you. But there's nothing to stop them from making many prints on home photo printers or going to several different photo kiosks at big box stores or multiple photo stores.

Granted, if you sell them a print, there's also nothing stopping them from slapping that print down on their flatbed scanner and creating a digital file so they can make many prints, too.

It's an interesting call to make. Really it boils down to what you think is best for you. Same thing on the price. I charge $55 for a signed 8x10 nature photo. Some other pros charge less, some more. It varies widely. If you do give them the file, I'd add an unobtrusive watermark to the lower right side of the photo that says: © Jeremy Maslowski. It should be about half an inch above the bottom and in from the right, so there's still room for it to show when it's matted/framed. Nothing to stop them from cropping it out, but it's one measure to take.

Rereading this it sounds like I think people are evil thieves, and I don't think that way.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

Without knowing who,how,or what type of printing is being done,I'd advise against putting your name on it. If,for example,someone printed the file on their junky old printer at home and it had your name on it,people might look at your name and associate it with a very poor image even though the image was great but the output from the printer made it look terrible.

Adding a copyright/name to an image might scare off some would be thieves,but if an image is used without your permission,an image you may price at say,$50,are you willing/prepared to spend hundreds or possibly thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to recoup the $50/$350 image?

For your copyright to have some real teeth-no gray area whatsoever- you need to register it.

I've used "tin eye" to track down a few of my images being used without permission-no biggie,one was of my daughter's cat. Now she thinks her cat is world famous!

A good practice is to never post anything online that you care about getting stolen. I won't post my best keepers or sold images,nor can I post any images I shoot for the two Agricultural periodicals that contract me.

Keep your pricing fair and word will spread. Good luck!

[finnbay]

Jeremy,

I'm going to take a little different tack on answering this. To begin with, making a fair amount of pocket change from selling nature and wildlife photos is kind of like every high school athlete "knowing" that they're going to be a professional in their chosen sport. Being talented isn't enough. A lot of things have to fall into place before you can make some real money, and with all due respect, be worried about people stealing your work. There is a LOT of competition out there from a LOT of talented people. I sell a fair amount of photos. But most of them are studio or sports shots. If I had to depend on the $$'s from my wildlife photos to buy my camera gear, I wouldn't be able afford a 1 gig CF card. That's not to say I wouldn't like to. Maybe after I retire I can put more effort into developing those possibilities.

In the mean time, my suggestions. Develop a GREAT portfolio. You don't have to have thousands of marketable photos, but work on getting a dozen to two dozen solid ones. Second, you need to have a way of getting those examples out where people can see them, and start to develop some name recognition. I regularly contribute prints for DU banquets and other non-profits and make sure I leave plenty of cards and contact info with the contribution. Offer images to publications like Outdoor News. They don't pay much, but it reaches a relatively large audience. I'm currently working with a local paper on a "Wildlife" series. I'm being paid - not much - but have already had a number of people ask what I might have for sale. Ask some local businesses to hang some of your shots, either for sale or even just ambiance. If they're good images, people will want to know more. Web sites are a real cr@p shoot. Again, you are competing with hundreds of thousands of other sites that have the same kinds of product you have. If you understand, and have the time, to use some of the tricks of the trade to make your site more visible, it helps. But only a little.

Develop a style, technique or specialty that is yours, unique. I have yet to find my niche, and that puts me into competing with a lot of photographers that have the same shots that I do. Go to the Sax-Zim bog with 10 photographers, and put a boreal chickadee shot up from all of them, and the one that stands out as being something different is the one that has a chance to sell.

If you are satisfied with selling an occasional shot to family or an acquaintance, don't worry about price, etc. I sell shots to my sister (and she's one of my biggest promoters) for cost + a dollar. On the other hand, if you'd like to develop this into something more, take the time to go to craft fairs, community productions (Blueberry Festival, Land of the Loon, etc) and see what other entrepreneurs have for a product, and what they are charging.

Finally, don't get discouraged. Developing all that I've described doesn't happen overnight. One great benefit of taking the time to try to do the best that you can - even if you don't "make it big", you'll have some great experiences and products that YOU can enjoy. Good luck!

[MN Shutterbug]

The only thing I'd really disagree with is craft shows. I've been to a few arts & craft shows and I've seen photographers selling matted 8 X 10's for $10. I call that desparation.

But then you're original question was how much to charge your mom's co workers. If you're proud of your pictures and want them hanging on someone's wall and are not pursueing this as a business, charge just a few bucks over your cost and see if it leads somewhere. If you try and get professional prices for your photos, they'll probably want to "think about it". Since they work with your mother, they'll probably expect to not have to pay much. This is why I won't sell anything to an in-law. They always expect me to sell things at my cost. I'm sure your mom's co workers wouldn't be that bad, but they probably aren't going to be prepared to spend a lot. The $20 for an 8 X 10 and $15 for a 5 X 7 might be right in line.

[MARINERMAGNUM]

Finn makes a good point that I forgot-offer to hang some of your work in a high traffic area for free. I did this in a few businesses in the large city I work in and it does generate alot of HSOforum hits and some sales for me. For those,I had my HSOforum URL laser etched into the matting in lieu of a business card.

[Spearing Machine]

Thanks for all the help guys!! From the start I never intended to sell my photos or make it a full blown career as I know its very difficult to do that and I enjoy it more of a hobby and past time. I now will be doing a little thinking about if I really want to do this. Its just really hard now days to be able to trust people and all it would take is one person to steal a piece of work and it would really make me upset.

[DTro]

Don't forget about any tax implications either. Pretty tough to track with a few prints here or there, but who wants to mess with the IRS.

That's why bartering works so well.

[Dbl]

There are actually a lot of factors to consider when you start selling your work. Most insurance carriers put you into a commercial operation, tax implications as mentioned are just a couple to consider.

I am at a bit of a dilemma offering advice which is why I have delayed responding. Unless I sell a digital download I would never let a customer, and make no mistake your mom’s friends are customers have control of your file. When you say that makes it different they will print, you are right it makes it VERY expensive if you turn over control of your file unless conditions are attached.

Let me just say this, if you start down the road of "giving away" or pricing yourself way below a market you will have a very hard time when you decide you want to be paid fair value for your work and time. I do not do anything pricing wise in photography where I don't make at least a set cost per hour. Keep in mind this includes my time to go shoot, actually shoot, process and any other time spent related to the shoot. Also keep in mind I am running a business that has insurance, operating costs, and profit margins just so you see my point.

You don't obviously have those things to deal with so your cost of business will be less than mine. But as I mentioned earlier price yourself low and you will have a tough time changing the perception of being known as a "low cost" photographer. Too high and you likely won't make a sale. It’s a tough balancing act.

So back to your original question I do offer digital downloads. I don't sell copyrights (unless the fee is VERY high as in five figures) but I do sell limited use digital downloads., two versions. Low res and high res. The low res is $10 and will print to a 4x6. The high res is $25 and will print to roughly a 16x20 size. This is a limited use file, I retain the copyright and it usually is for personal use only, no commercial use at all (print ads, web site use, etc.). These prices were set a number of years ago and need to be adjusted upward. I rarely ever sell these because I offer different options that are a better value for higher volume.

How do I control how those files are used, well to be honest it is almost impossible. Selling to an individual you have to assume it will likely be personal use and that is as far as it will go. As mentioned earlier I issue a limited use license but don't know of any fool proof method of controlling how a file or photo gets used. All of these are considerations once you begin to profit from your work.

Also I do not put any watermark, logo or sign any photo that has been sold, I put that information on the back of the print. The exception to that is a poster, a small very unobtrusive logo is placed in the design. When a customer buys a fine art print they are paying for that print, not my name or logo on the photo itself. A poster I do not consider a fine art purchase. Obviously when displaying on line everything is watermarked.

[dukhnt]

I get an occasional email inquiring about some of my photots. One was from a marketing group from HeviShot. They never did use my photo but I got a bunch of free shotgun shells for my efforts.

I did just sell my first photo to someone. He wanted it as a 12x18. I charged him $35.

[mmeyer]

Dan is absolutely correct, well isn't he always. . You may not think you will be selling any prints right now but possibly, once you start word of mouth might help you to sell a few more, now if you start out selling them dirt cheap it is very hard to change that. I'm dealing with that now with portraits. I started out last year selling them at a cheap but reasonable rate. I know that I do want to make some more income from this so I cannot stay at that price level for long otherwise I'll be known as the cheap guy. I want to be known as the guy with great images that's reasonably priced, so I had to raise my prices this year. We'll see how it goes, but I am still lower than most so I think I'll be fine. I'll probably have to increase each year as I get more experience until I'm at a level that I'm comfortable with.

Just something to keep in mind.

[Dbl]

Mike if I was even close to always being correct I would be typing this from a laptop on a beach in the Caribbean enjoying my retirement!

[Steve Foss]

. . . if you start down the road of "giving away" or pricing yourself way below a market you will have a very hard time when you decide you want to be paid fair value for your work and time . . . price yourself low and you will have a tough time changing the perception of being known as a "low cost" photographer.

+1

Look around at what professional nature photographers charge for their work. Sure, they are pros with expenses amateurs don't have, but if you believe your work is good, and others believe your work is good, don't be WalMart, be at least Bloomingdales.

Anybody can buy the shlock we see at WalMart for WalMart prices. But you are not selling shlock. You are selling your personal expression and interpretation, and that is what defines art. If you aren't confident it's good enough to suit you, don't sell it. If you think it artfully reflects your view of the world, sell it and price it as art, not for pennies on the dollar.

Some types of people love bargains. Nothing wrong with that. I'm constantly hunting for bargains myself. In art, it's a mistake to cater to bargain hunters, IMO. I sell very few prints, and that's fine with me. People who buy my prints at the prices I ask for them have to be inspired enough to decide to pay my price (as already mentioned, higher than some others and lower than some others). If they won't I'm happy to refer them to WalMart.

And no, I'm not being arrogant. As an artist, you have to draw the priceline somewhere.

Just my continued $.02.

[finnbay]

I think I created a bit of a stir when I didn't intend to. When I said

Quote:

If you are satisfied with selling an occasional shot to family or an acquaintance, don't worry about price, etc.

that's exactly what I meant. If never intending to make a business out of it, don't worry about fixing a price. Prints, and especially framed prints make great birthday and Christmas presents. If thinking you might want to get serious about it, that's a different story. A plan is needed - and it needs to be long term. I am very generous to my sister because she exhibits many of my prints and is well connected in another part of the state. I've generated several hundred dollars in revenue from selling her prints at just above cost. That's part of my plan.

As to people stealing my images. I am careful about digital images - that is something that can come back to bite you. On the other hand, I've gone to grad parties where the grad card included one of my images that had been scanned from a print I sold them and they made their own cards. Many of my sports images appear on Facebook pages without my permission. It's not worth it to rigorously get after these people because 1. they are not profiting by it and 2. it would kill future sales in my community. If I saw one of my images in Jim Brandenburg's gallery with his name on it, (yeah right!)I guess I'd have to get nasty about it.

As I see it, there are four kinds of photographers that use this forum; strictly amateurs; amateurs that make an occasional dollar from selling an image; serious amateurs and or semi-pros who make a good sideline from selling their images; and pros who make their primary living from selling their images. I think there is a BIG line between the first two and the second two. Serious pros can be hurt by amateurs undercutting prices - especially if the amateur is good at taking pictures. I hope that doesn't worry the pros. Because as I said in my first post, it takes more than talent to make it in this as a business.

[dockothebay]

What a great discussion - thanks for starting the thread Jeremy!

I put myself in Ken's first category - strictly amateur. I have no intention (or maybe I should say illusions) of selling my work, but I do occasionally use my images for gifts.

In your position, I think I'd consider having prints made in a couple of sizes and then offering them at a reasonable rate (12x18/$35; $20/8x10; and $15/5x7 sound reasonable to me).

If you want to explore further sales, I'd make or get some cards made (lots of internet printers offer business cards for free or very low cost) and include it with the image. When I have artwork framed, I have the card or artists brochure attached to the back of the framed piece, then it doesn't compromise the artwork, but I have the information at my fingertips if I want it.

Just my 2¢... Good Luck! You won't make enough right now for next semesters tuition, but you might be able to get a couple of new filters - or put away the extra $$ for that new lens

[yakfisher]

Serious pros can be hurt by amateurs undercutting prices - especially if the amateur is good at taking pictures. I hope that doesn't worry the pros. Because as I said in my first post, it takes more than talent to make it in this as a business.

Sounds like my first line of work.

I've lost a few opportunities to sell my work because the price was to high for corporate clients, and I'm okay with that. Photography is not my number one line of work so I am more than willing to avoid being the little fish that gets caught by the corporate guy on a fishing expedition for cheap marketing material on flickr.

I also give my family prints every year for Christmas. I'd go probably do $20 for 8x10 unframed images. Even the infomercial guys figure that people will easily part with a Jackson. Good luck!