8 - Point Restrictions Meeting In Perham

[Bear55]

Keep on posting Peatmoss!!! I try to chime in now and then, because I don't want a vocal few to dictate how the deer regs are set. Plus I get tired of reading the long, rambling posts. Wish people would learn how to space things out for easier reading....

Why do they need the DNR to legislate for big bucks when there ARE big bucks out there. Problem is that they have to go hunt them down!!! It would be easier if the DNR would just parade them by every hunter. To heck with the hunters that consider any deer they shoot to be a trophy!!

Blackjack I don't think we are even close the vocal minority, Lou himself said 50% of hunters surveys were in favor of some type of QDM. It might even be safe to say you are the vocal minority or will be in due time.

I won't even go into detail how impossible it is for the DNR to legislate a big buck behind every tree, you still have to hunt them down and that is not an easy task. All we really want is a chance to see a few more mature deer and if luck would have it actually shoot a few of them too. We know this state can do better than what most of us see every fall (excluding the handful of people on the back of the Outdoor News)and all it takes is a little sacrifice and a little conservation and we can all have some great hunting.

[Jameson]

Part of the QDMA philosphy:

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

Within existing legal constraints...QDMers should NOT be trying to change the legal constraints.

Another part of the QDMA philosphy:

QDM guidelines are formulated according to property-specific objectives, goals, and limitations.

After seeing many folks on here practicing their QDM on their properties and successfully shooting in their opinion quality deer, I see absolutely no reason why their way of hunting needs to be forced upon all of us.

On the property I manage I will be implementing an antler restriction of sorts this year, but in no way do I want to force my neighbors to do the same, as I hope they don't try to force their way of hunting on me.

[96trigger]

Thats great that you have your own property. What about the 300,00 hunters that don't? I am a public property hunter, I would like to see some of the younger bucks get a pass for a year.

How many acres are you managing? Are your neighbors going to go along with your thinking? If you don't own at least 80+ acres, or don't have the neighboring properties to go along with you, I wish you the best of luck. I truly do. Most of the people supporting APR are also already doing this. In some rare cases, it does work, in others, it is much more difficult. Good luck, I truly do hope you are successful. I would love to hear the results of your work the next couple of years, especially if the state doesn't add anymore restrictions. It would be great to hear about how it worked out for you.

[InTheNorthwoods]

If you don't own at least 800+ acres, or don't have the neighboring properties to go along with you, I wish you the best of luck. I truly do.

Fixed your post.

[96trigger]

I was thinking more like 200 acres at a minimum, but people can probably do it with 80 in certain areas, but man, it will be tough. I didn't want to sound too negative.

Someone that practices it on their own, might change their mind about increased regulations. If they see change, they might realize its not so bad, if they don't, they might realize they need some help.

[hockeybc69]

We have 120 acres, and its not nearly enough to make a significant impact IMO.

Good debate.

[Musky Buck]

I hear that BlackJack, we have no problem going to deer camp and enjoying each other but the deer woods should be almost named the deerless woods. 1 thing that is broken is we have 25 days with gun in hand vs. half the old zone 4 hunters had 2 days. 23 extra gun days along with our find a tag save yours and since you're only hunting the first 5 days well come over and tag mine and if you connect I'll come tag yours so I can save my tag, or we'll leave our tags since the gas station don't check things out anyway and u can use them up first, at this point in time 2010 needs to go.

[BLACKJACK]

Musky, the reason I keep bringing up the nice deer pictures in the Outdoor News is because week after week week they show pictures of very nice deer and the pictures that they show are just a very small percentage of the deer shot here in MN.

What percent of the deer hunters in MN do you think actually subscribe to ODN?? Five percent? 10 percent? Then figure the people that don't bother to send in the pictures of their nice deer. So the nice bucks you see in ODN are actually a very small percentage of the nice bucks that are shot in MN - meaning that lot of nice bucks are shot that we never see or hear about.

But the fact that there are lots of nice bucks in MN is not good enough for the people advocating QDM, they want the DNR to make it easier for them.

[Bear55]

So you think because there are some photos of nice bucks on Outdoors News and that other hunters shoot nice bucks but never send in photos that this state is full of nice bucks? What exactly are you comparing us to? I can look in any direction and find a state or province with a lot more mature bucks than us or at the very least a much higher percentage of mature buck. If you are happy with a mediocre herd and below average hunting during the peak of the rut that is fine but some of us know this state can do so much better

Please explain to me how the DNR is going to make killing a mature buck any easier?

[Musky Buck]

I hear ya, so lets say 500 decent bucks are published out of 500,000 hunters, figure in 2,000 that don't get sent in and we're looking at 2,500 good bucks out of 100,000 harvested bucks, that's 2.5% say 5,000 don't get sent in that's 5% of the harvest in which we have 25 gun days and a 100 bow days. Hmmm. Many of outdoor news bucks we see are in bow hunting areas only with places such as those where they can reach maturity much easier. hmmmmmm. Like all the bow shot metro bucks, take that out and fort ripley and the meat pole is a lot lighter ?

[Getanet]

I know people get tired of the Outdoor News argument. But others get just as tired of these math equations with imaginary figures arguments.

I don't know what the hunting around Perham is like. I know where I hunt the hunting has been just fine and with enough time and a little luck you might get a big buck. To me that's all you can ask for.

I can't say I know who Lee Lakosky is. I don't watch much hunting on TV and maybe that's why I can't get on APR bandwagon. People realize in most cases these guys are hunting game farms right? That's why I have a hard time watching those shows - they're not reality. If I had 30 big bucks walking under my stand on the way to the deer feeder I'd be a little more selective too.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I know people get tired of the Outdoor News argument. But others get just as tired of these math equations with imaginary figures arguments.

I don't know what the hunting around Perham is like. I know where I hunt the hunting has been just fine and with enough time and a little luck you might get a big buck. To me that's all you can ask for.

I can't say I know who Lee Lakosky is. I don't watch much hunting on TV and maybe that's why I can't get on APR bandwagon. People realize in most cases these guys are hunting game farms right? That's why I have a hard time watching those shows - they're not reality. If I had 30 big bucks walking under my stand on the way to the deer feeder I'd be a little more selective too.

The ODN argument is nothing more than a math equation itself.

Most people who claim the hunting is "just fine" have never experienced anything different to compare it to. I HAVE had great hunting in other states, they DO manage deer differently, it IS more fun, and the difference is simply a management strategy.

And, for the record, there are no sour grapes on my part. I have killed mature deer in MN, and I have passed young deer in MN, but I still want to see changes so others can experience the excitement of the rut when there is a balanced deer herd.

[Musky Buck]

Sorry. All I know for sure is deer hunting especially for a mature buck is nearly impossible on all the private land I can hunt when you see 0 in velvet, 0 on trail cams, and 0 season after season, sorry the last 6 years have been awful, and we shoot no buck fawns or yearlings or shaky 2.5 year olds. So how are they all dying ? 10 Years ago this wasn't the case and the land(s) hasn't changed, people have, why are there no mature bucks around or maybe 2 for every 50 deer stands ? There are very few decent does around as well per capita of hunters. I think the deer get shot off more nowaday by size rather than the alternative. I also think I'm in a bad pocket as the neighbors near 2 of 3 spots blast everything and find tags for the kill, you can hunt harder and longer or whatever but when the closest mature buck is 5 miles away good luck. Anyone want to buy some land ? You can get a decent buck every 25 years. I hope I can eat my words and on the farm we'll have a decent bachelor herd, hasn't been a shooter in the group since 2003, and that one was likely taken illegally from what was heard, however they will get killed somehow by the same clowns year after year, we'll take the loins,backstraps hindquarters and the rest ends up on my approach at 3:41 AM. This imaginary figured amount comes from the DNR checking the harvest in our area. 85% yearling bucks, 12% were 2.5, 3% were 3.5 or older. With a deer stand on every 2 acre patch in my area we are either that poor of hunters or there are few mature bucks around, I'd guess the latter and doe/meat people can wail away on the does and fawns, you don't care about the antlers anyway or deep down do ya, got to go to Thanksgiving saying got "my" buck every year so you look cool to the reli's. Thanks for letting me go off, it's just this cycle in many areas can only be broken with law, it takes a lot more today for a buck to reach a bit of maturity especially hunting the rut when they cross lots of properties eventually getting pounded by a guy who likely won't waste their tag on him and often times it's the 2nd or 3rd squirt of the season, it's about shooting. Bring it on DNR for our area 240, lets put some game hogs/the neighbors will shoot him anyway slowly out of business. Then again, this is an uphill battle and maybe if all of us start blistering everything the meat gang might even jump onboard. This is usually the time of year about where I got people offering me venison all the time, tired of it, fun shootin but can't eat no more so there's a huge difference between a meat hunter and a shooter hunter and there's no way to figure out who's who.

[Musky Buck]

I have to admit this after that rambling mess, often times trying to fix a problem opens the door to others. I'm not sure with party hunting and cross tagging and etc. that much good can come. I was thinking about the lady who hunts near me, there's little chance she could identify a bucks rack. I'd like to see a bucks only first 4 days and 2nd weekend 5 days of either sex. Haven't analyzed that but it would cover a lot of us giving the choice of how to hunt. ??? It's 1983 Old zone 4 coming back.

[96trigger]

I am not an outdoor news subscriber, nor have I ever been, but I have had my picture in there. I also know people that send the pictures in for others, even though the person in the picture is not a subscriber. We do have big bucks in MN, that is without question. The question is, is it better to have a more mature deer herd with a better buck to doe ratio or not?

[Musky Buck]

True enough trigger and would an APR really help or not, there are so many issues tied into it, sorry I was venting, grandma musky buck is in critical condition and that rant took my mind off of things a bit, HSO is some of the best therapy I know and there are a lot of great people on here whether they agree or disagree, as people they're good people regardless. Take care all.

[MOSSY]

Musky best wishes for the grandma

Mossy

[Musky Buck]

Thanks Mossy, she really is a tremendous lady, tough to see her like this: you know if the hunters in 240 were surveyed and the majority wanted to leave things as is I'd go for that. I'm thankful each fall I can have a buck tag and the chance to take a big one, I just have to realize this isn't the 80's where I was nearly able to comb through 4-10 different bucks during the 2 day season, got more days to hunt now just quite a bit fewer decent bucks around. A guy will really appreciate the past bucks and how tough it is to take a good one today.

[vister]

all for APR say yay, all oppose, say yay! if we were in a APR test zone, or statewide for a few years, i'd be all for it. the problem is people dont want to be told what they can shoot. everyone claims every deer harvested is a trophy, which is true to an extent, and ive even said it before, but we dont "trophy" hunt every year to put a yearling in the freezer. APR doesnt mean we'll have huge racks running around, it means we'll have a more diverse age structure in the herd. well guess what, with older bucks come bigger racks. i'm all for bigger racks, as well as having more older deer in the woods. it gets old sitting in a bow stand for hours upon end, and seeing so many yearling bucks and whatnot, knowing all those forks are going to be just enough horn to hang from the rafters with a rope. Mature deer are hard to come by anywhere. especially difficult because heaven forbid someone wanted to hear their gun go off.

many people complain of how much money they have invested into hunting to not have a deer for the freezer, such as owning land, guns, ammo, optics clothing, and the list goes on. if you are one off these people, go to cub foods and buy hamburger. its way cheaper!! I believe APR will satisfy many of our "needs". some will get more looks at nicer bucks, and some will feel better knowing there are deer that are old enough to have grandkids of their own!! So, experimentel APR in zone 240. YES! and i think most of us hunters that hunt in 240 are going to agree with me. we know what deer we are capable of seeing here.

one last food for thought. like fine whiskey, things get better with age. so do deer!

[Musky Buck]

Agree Vister, our entire party including the new hunters want it to. I'm trying to think of hunters in 240 I know that wouldn't be in favor and I'm not sure I know any. Then again it's a small sample of people, maybe 50-100. I'm not even sure it will work, but the way things are now isn't any better, if old zone 4 would've been left alone and muzzleloading would've been left alone maybe we wouldn't be having this talk yet as my 3 separate 240 areas all had decent age structure not so many years ago. Go from 2 days or 4 of rifle with no muzzleloading to a possible 25 days of gun hunting has changed things. Quite a few more bucks survived it. I think the old zone 4 was a fair recipe for us. So is zone 2 but the intense opening weekend pressure and then weekday pressure isn't allowing the deer like they used to be able to regroup and return to some sort of a pattern, now it's extremely nocturnal.

[hockeybc69]

We are 50/50 in our area of 240. Lots of mowing down brown with a few properties around us.

Not saying that I know they wouldnt be interested in some changes, but if I was a betting man, I would guess most wouldnt want restrictions to keep them from plowing whatever walks by them.

[Musky Buck]

I can believe that, if we would all hunt that way for a few years they'd realize heck we're just gunning down the deer the others aren't, by many of us letting everything pass we're helping provide the opportunities they get so of course they don't want that to change. Old zone 4 took care of lots or so it seemed. Huge difference between shooters and meat hunters and it's tough in 2010 to distinguish what is what. Dragging deer must be getting easier as they are getting younger and lighter.

[Bear55]

I can believe that, if we would all hunt that way for a few years they'd realize heck we're just gunning down the deer the others aren't, by many of us letting everything pass we're helping provide the opportunities they get so of course they don't want that to change.

There is very true where I hunt, when we started practicing QDM our neighbors saw their success jump around 100%. They still don't do all that well because most of their hunting is done from the card table but it was easy to see how they picked off a lot of the deer we let go. That was just one group of hunters, I'm sure other groups in the area got many of the other deer we usually pass on. Now I won't take credit for their success but its not too hard to see the meat hunters are really benefiting from a large group of hunters passing small bucks, it would be nice if they could pay us back some day. It might be hard to do when they endlessly defend any law that allows them to shoot as many young bucks as possible.

[Musky Buck]

This 25 days of gun hunting seems to have really hurt the age dist. of the deer. It gives the shooter kind of guy in cases 23 extra days to shoot. The tag supply seems endless, no one is ever completely filled out and many are saving that buck tag for muzzy not that they'll get a chance to use it but the deer stands are never empty and often times by guys who have taken certainly there fair share for the season. I have no answers, just the cycle we're in with so much opportunity it makes sense why things are the way they are especially where land is very subdivided.

[vister]

thats what i dont understand, is we have at a minimum 9 days to shoot a deer with a firearm. isnt that enough time to get looks at multiple deer before blasting away? we have neighbors that went awall on the deer herd 2 seasons ago, because we and other neighbors were practicing QDM. between the 6 of them, they gunned down 24 deer! one small buck and the rest does and yearlngs and fawns. hmmmmm. that should do em huh? fortunately, they missed most bucks, including one dandy, that a QDM practicing neighbor took the following day!