Scott Ullger Needs To Go!!

[AWH]

Right on, Cicada! People that want him gone definitely can't appreciate what he does and won't realize it until we have to trot out the Eddie Guardados and LaTroy Hawkins types again.

Aaron

[SledNeck]

Quote:

Be glad you aren't following the Phillies if you're going to get worked up about Nathan. Brad Lidge made $12 million this year. He had 11 blown saves, had an 0-8 record and an ERA over 7. If closers were so easy to come by, do you think the Phillies would still be having him close games in the post season? If the Twins wouldn't have signed Nathan for $11 million, there would have been plenty of teams that would have jumped at the chance to sign him.

Joe Nathan post season stats

Games 8 IP 8 Hits 12 Runs 7 HR 2 BB 7 ERA 7.88

saves=1

Brad Lidge post season stats

Games 27 IP 35 Hits 23 Runs 8 HR 2 BB 14 ERA 2.04

saves=14

[AWH]

While Nathan has not been a good post season pitcher (this can't even be debated), 8 innings is a small sample set. And I'm not willing to let 8 innings define his career or make me think they should cut ties with him.

A-Rod is ripped as a guy that doesn't perform in the post season too. He looked pretty dang good to me the last 3 games!

Aaron

[bassislife]

Your right it shouldn't be debated. Nellies best years are behind him, time to move forward.

Teams without there "slugger" being hot can win the World Series.

As far as any team winning the World Series without there Closer

being effective? Never happen!

[SledNeck]

if it comes down to keeping players like Mauer, Morneau and signing free agent 3b or 2b..Id say the Twins would be wise in dumping nathans 11 mill a year.

[zepman]

No doubt Sled. I don't think Nathan could physically close out a seventh game of the World Series without passing out...it just seems like he can't ever catch his breath when he's on the mound. Hyperventilating, nervousness, asthma, whatever you want to call it...it's affecting his big game performances(see post-season stats from above).

Matty G. could take his place as the closer...let's sign Mauer/Pavano/Cabrera and give him some help at 3rd. Closers are made not bought.

[Mudcutter]

what many on here fail to realise is AUG 21st. on that day, Nathan pitched agst KC and threw over 50 pitches. Just happenend, 8 pitch AB, 14 pitch AB,, nothing Gardy could do. His stats before and after Aug 20th are polar opposites. THE DUDE GOT WORE DOWN. and opposing teams took advantage.

HE got wore down more becasue the TWins were 7 games back on Sept 7th, and he hardly got a break like Rivera did being up 10 games in the DIV. (not saying Nathan = Rivera,, Mar Riv is the best closer of all time-- not even close).

You give me a Joe Nathan with the rest Rivera had,, and I'll stick with what I got. Don't get rid of Nathan. Closers are not over rated,, see Paplebon at home agst the Angels. Paplebon is overrated, because he plays on such a good team.

See the Cubs closers for the last 102 years.

If the Twins get rid of Nathan,, you can count any Post season play goodbye for 2 years. TRUST ME. Nathan is blamed like the QB who has a reciever drop a pass. The TWins didn't play Twins baseball and it rubbed off, and Nathan was wore down after the late summer.

[DTro]

people hold closers so high, it's ridiculous.

THEY PITCH ONE INNING

[bassislife]

Way overrated!!! They come in with a 1-3 run lead, hold off the other team for 3-outs??, while the starters held them off for 7 innings already! Then they get credited with the BIG save!

[fishyguy]

The guy had a bad series and all of a sudden he is garbage?

He saved 90% of his opportunities this year, which is the same as his career numbers. Here are some other big names of the last decade and some of this years leaders career numbers.

Rivera 91%

Hoffmann 90%

F Rodriquez 86%

Soria 90%

Jenks 87%

Lidge 83%

Street 82%

Bell 71%

Opponents batted .171 against him and he had a 2.10 ERA. Compare those stats and tell me where he fits in with the other closers or even other relief pitchers in the game.

You can talk about how much he is paid but how loud will everyone be screaming when we get some $4 million a year guy blowing twice as many saves and we can't even sniff a division title?

[fishyguy]

Way overrated!!! They come in with a 1-3 run lead, hold off the other team for 3-outs??, while the starters held them off for 7 innings already! Then they get credited with the BIG save!

3 posts above this you say a team can't win a WS without their closer being effective, now you say they are way overrated. I think if they are critical to winning a WS they are important. Which is it?

[bassislife]

Both! today you do need a guy that can pitch (only) 3-outs! That is effective, unlike " Nervous Nellie" !!

Still way overrated!!

I would like to see the old style of baseball return with the likes of Bert and Morris. Guys like that who would go 11-12 innings and say " what's a closer" and laugh about it!

[fishyguy]

I guess we do need starters to go 9 innings because according to the standards you hold there is not a effective closer in the game. Nathan holds up to anyone in the last 10 years with only Rivera having case of being better. The numbers do bear that out.

I guess I don't know how something can be overrated if you can't win a championship without that same thing. I don't know how it could be both. I could listen to both sides of your points but they seem to contradict themselves. I thought it was only my wife that tried to get away with that.

[bassislife]

Sounds like life is pleasant for you! Let me rephrase that " you can't win a "World Series" without good relief pitching.

I'm sorry, do I still remind you of your wife? Hope she shaved today!

[B. Amish]

I agree that closers are overrated and overpaid, but everytime they screw up, that gets overblown also. nathan's numbers are as good as they get.

three teams got swept this year in round 1. 3 closers blew saves or lost games. even rivera gave up hits and allowed runs to score, even though the runs counted towards someone elses era.

the mighty paplebon blew it for the red sox at home. the cardinals got swept even though they have two great starting pitchers in wainwright and carpenter.

the twins had plenty of chances. blame it on the players, almost all of them could have done better. it's not gardy's fault, it's not ulger's fault, the blame shouldn't go to one single player (ie nathan). the yankees capitalized on their chances and took advantage of our mistakes.

[mr_jman]

I agree with fishyguy on this one. How can they be the least important person on a team and yet without a closer no team can win a championship.

Every closer is going to lose games! It kind of comes with the role.

Yes I am just as mad as everyone else that Nathan blew game 2 and going one step further... he blew that game against the White Sox after having 2 outs and 2 strikes on 2 batters in the 9th inning! Remember that?

Still...

No closer has ever saved EVERY game they've pitched in. It is extrememly dissapointing that it happened to Nathan in the playoffs and down the stretch. The numbers don't lie he is still one of the best closers in baseball and getting rid of him is not the answer. Out of the 30 or so teams how many closers are better than Nathan in this league? 1 or 2 TOTAL!

Maybe we should do away with closers and go back to the 80's? Sure we'd be the only team doing it and our starters would be done by late August and we can watch the Twins sit in 4th of 5th place about 15 games back.... THAT SOUNDS FUN!

Closers are somewhat overrated but in this day and age they are a part of the game... Maybe we should do away with set up men too or middle relievers... Maybe we should only carry 5 starting pitchers next season... Last time I checked EVERY SINGLE TEAM has a closer and a setup man WHO ALSO PITCHES ONE INNING most of the time!

Some pitchers come in to face 1 guy because the matchup is favorable... Maybe we should get rid of guys like Rausch, and Mijares, and Crain (actually we should get rid of him!), etc. The game is about getting 27 outs and scoring more runs than the other team before that happens. If it takes 1 pitcher or 7 they are all equally important!!!!!!!

Maybe the Vikings should have gotten rid of Gary Anderson in 1998-1999 because he missed one field goal all season but since it was so important he is now the worst field goal kicker ever...

Once again I read through an entire thread not planning to log in and once again I sign in and rant on.....

[bassislife]

Any good relief pitcher that is hot on the mound could and should stay until he runs into trouble. 95% of the time there is a lead when the "Closer" comes in, whats wrong with leaving Raush or Gurierra in to finish it out if they are hot on the mound & untouchable? then we bring in the "Closer" that only needs to get the last 3-outs (with a lead). If he's hot, we win the game, (thats if). If he's cold, the game is blown, and if he would have stayed out the game we would probably have won.

My point is a "team" can win a World Series" as long as it stays in it as a "team" and not rely on a one persons performance in the 9th Hot or Cold!

I think someday this postion will change when a World Series is blown because of a few bad outings with the "Closer".

[AWH]

There's a big difference between pitching in the 8th and pitching in the 9th when you need the last couple outs to get the win. This is why set up men are set up men and not closers. Just because someone is a lights out guy in the 7th or 8th doesn't mean he would perform the same in the 9th. Do we forget about a guy like LaTroy Hawkins? No better example than him when you talk about a guy that was lights out in relief unless you asked him to get the save. There's a reason that every team will designate one guy as their closer. It's not an easy job.

If the Twins can improve their team by trading Nathan, they should be all means do it. But you don't just dump a guy without a solid plan to replace him because he had a few bad games. That's a knee jerk reaction at its finest. And replacing Nathan would be no easy task.

Aaron

[SledNeck]

Rivera can pitch in the 8th and 9th no problems

[AWH]

And that's why he's a closer...

Aaron

[bassislife]

How do you know if the lights out guy in the 7th & 8th couldn't do it in the 9th if you pull him in the 8th? Most of these guys just get into the groove by the eigth and if they are throwing strikes could easily finish the game. If they get into trouble, then bring in the next relief.

Nervous Nellies best days are behind him. He sucked the last month and his fastball isn't what it used to be. Everyone around the AL has seen everything he's got. I think he would do better his last few years in the NL where he would be somewhat new yet and who knows could probably hit the ball good!

[AWH]

I agree that teams go to the closer just because he's the closer earlier than they have to. I wouldn't have a problem putting a guy out there in the 9th that shut them down the previous inning. But good or bad, that's not how the game is played anymore. That's why teams pay their closers more than middle relief guys. They're more dependable in those situations.

No doubt, leaving a guy in the game to close things out for a 2, 3, or 4 inning save can happen. But don't you think there's a reason that teams rarely do this? History proves that in today's game where complete games are a rarity, that odds are better to go to your closer in the 9th than to leave your set up guy in the game.

I see where you're coming from. And it's not a bad thought. But again, it's a different game in the 9th than it is in the 8th. You need to have a different mentality to close games than you do to be the bridge that gets the game from your starter to the closer. It's not as easy as just throwing anyone out there. If it was, teams would never pay closers, closer type money. They could save a lot of money. But no one does it. Why?

Aaron

[UdeLakeTom]

Aaron...you show too much intelligence and logic for most of the posters here.

[PierBridge]

How do you even respond to this type of thread.

Anyway Ulger admitted he should have did a better job of getting Punto's attention.

Closers are without a doubt the most key position in the play-offs.

Nathan isn't going anywhere he's one of the best in the game year in and year out.

I do understand the frustration so vent on!

[UdeLakeTom]

Peter Positive Gary just came back from Winnie...he wanted to know if he should even bother reading the responses...