Sunday Tribune Article

[MNice]

I agree, unless they punish these people, nothing will change. Maybe if you get caught damaging public property, they should seize your wheeler. Until the punishment fits the crime, nothing will change

[Dave S]

Tumbleweed,

although your post may seem to some as being a little "off the beaten path" , the DNR doesn't expect us to ride around on the trails closed throttle as you mentioned. As long as people are riding in a manor the "designated trail" was intended, there's no harm. I would like to believe you're one of those who sticks to designated trails and doesn't run-amuck where ever you please.

I don't think the Strib cares to put things any other way other than to try to have a total nation wide ban of ATV's.

[Dave S]

I agree, unless they punish these people, nothing will change. Maybe if you get caught damaging public property, they should seize your wheeler. Until the punishment fits the crime, nothing will change

My sentiments exactly. As ATV riders, there's a lot at stake here. Once people start losing their $10K atv's for riding irresponsibly, I don't believe it will change either.

[Dave S]

Could someone put a link to the article?? Most areas I ride

don't have cell coverage, so if someone saw somebody that

was breaking the law, it wouldn't help get the law out there.

True, cell phones don't work in many areas. Although I have Verizon and I get service in most areas in Nemadji.

I won't post a link, but if you can go to the strib site and put "Renegade Riders" in their search engine, it should pull up the story.

[Scott K]

I think the damage that people do on private land or public land should be treated like any other property damage ofense! If you get caught doing damage full resitution to repair the damge to what it was before it was destroyed by these criminals!

It doesnt make sense to me to catch them after there was thousands of dollars worth of damage done, then give them a $120 fine. If there was $2000 damage, they pay the full $2000 to repair it!

[Dave S]

This would be a good time to contact your local state legislators to push for something like this.

Although I am an ATVAM member, I personally feel they're trying to minimize the penalties handed out. IMO, our parent organization should be the ones spear-heading the drive to police ourselves. If not, we could lose it all.

[TUMBLEWEED]

The damage should be repaired by the people themselves.

IE, them hiring a private party or doing the work

themselves. Forget the state trying to assess a fine

or figure out restitution, or tying up already over

burdened resources. Too easy to just pay the fine

for some.Make them feel the pain.

LEP7. My post states that I do not go where it is designated

not to. I also respect private property, and public areas.

Driveways,parks and main roads are left alone as it should be.

Who wants more bad publicity for the sport. Now back deep in da woods is a whole different story!!!

[Dave S]

Now back deep in da woods is a whole different story!!!

I disagree. There are still lasting effects and because it's out of the general publics eye doesn't mean it's harmless ativity. Whether some want to believe it or not, there are other people who travel quite some distance off the beaten path by means other than ATV's who may see the damage caused.

The damage caused in one localized mudhole can have lasting effects for several miles and you may never know it.

[Augusta]

Now back deep in da woods is a whole different story!!!

Tumbleweed:

I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. I am a DNR Youth Safety Instructor, DNR Trail Ambassador, and as of recent, a Regional Director for ATVAM. I believe that deep back in the woods where there are no designated ATV trails or mud holes is exactly where we as ATV'ers need to stay away from. It is important that all of us ride in a respectfull manner so as to minimize our disturbance to the public lands that we are allowed to ride on.

I understand your desire to ride hard and fast, in addition to doing some "mudding and hill climbing". Someone previously brought up the idea of having certain areas around the state where a person could do this. I think this is a great idea! I intend to "run" this idea up the flag pole and see what happens.

On a side note, I want everyone here to know that I am listening to your ideas and suggestions on this HSOforum as to how we could improve ATVAM. So please, do not hesitate to contact me or shoot me an e-mail with a list of ideas or suggestions.

[Dave S]

Augusta,

long time no see.

Thanks for the reply, and most importantly, thanks for the work you do.

I intended to go through the ambassador training, but other obligations got in the way.

Keep up the good work.

[TUMBLEWEED]

Well I told you I was considered a bad apple!! No

really.. I don't have swampper tires, I don't run over

the purty flowers, or vegatation.And it probably isn't

worth mentioning, but my first job was in the

conservation field. So I do have some background in this and am not just another motorhead. The first pic on the

article shows damage from the "shirley crowd" going

around the mud and widening the trail, not wanting to get stuck or muddy. From what I could see, other than the trail getting a little wider, there didn't seem to be a runoff problem?

I understand you are trying to deal with numerous dynamics

of different ecosystems and impacts we as ATV operators

have upon them. Use of common sense has escaped some

that ride, but along those very same lines, we are

constantly being dogged by the "do-gooders" who try

to have all public lands regulated into tranquil

park-like atmospheres,with untouched wildness. Heck,

if I didn't have an ATV I might side with them, but

since I do have one, where do I fit in?? ATV's leave a

impact no doubt. Hopefully, we can find some middle

ground (MUD), with the other side.

My earlier reference to the "deep woods" would be better

if I changed it to the trails in the deep woods, as I don't

want anyone to think we should all leave the trails and go

full off road.

[Dave S]

TUMBLEWEED,

Thanks for rewording that.

[Roofer]

First off, the clubs take care of alot of the trails. Not all, but they do alot of maintenance. It's not about the mud, or going around the mud, or the dnr forcing laws on us, or shutting down trails. They do this for our sport and our own good. It is a simple fact of out of site out of mind. If it looks bad, it will be closed. This is just to keep the enviro's off our back.

I have to say, way back in the woods isn't near as bad as taking down fences or signs, but it is still not a good thing for the "others" to see. This is the only reason they shut down some of the ditches when they are wet.....it's because people can see it and they whine about it.

BTW, if you have pictures and turn them into the DNR (ONLY if it is on state property) they will make them come fix it. I have sent pictures and a trail kind of got fixed.

All of these ideas have been brought up to ATVAM and various others by myself, and the main problem is lack of funding. The other problem is that the state would have to send people out to make sure these things (bridges, etc.) are done to specs. Don't get me wrong, it can be done, but through the state and a big organization with tied hands (ATVAM), it is tough.

I think Texas and some other states have the right idea. They have large businesses buy land for offroad parks. They do this because they don't have any state or federal ground to ride on.

Some people should be aloud to go mudding in legal areas. The problem is that the "mudding crowd" comes and goes quickly. When the repairs start adding up, most people quit riding all together or they start trail riding. Look at the vids and pictures, most of them are stock ATV's that are fairly new. They buy it and think, "Let's go mudding". It soon wears off and they sell their broke down machine.

Like I always say, if you want a challenge, go out in the snow. Much more of a challenge than a water hole and it's legal.

[Sandmannd]

I think the star article (as always) is very one sided. I think having more trails and having citizens patrolling them is a great idea. You are always gonna have folks that decide they are above the law, take they ATV's then they will learn. I still can't believe there are no trails really close to the cities.

[Little_Bones]

I did not see the article as I live in Duluth. I am sure I can guess what the article says. My respone would be that as an ATV'r I have paid a license fee since 1988, the same fee I believe as snowmobilers do. But yet have far less trails to ride on. There are over 210,000 atv's registered in Mn, which out numbers snowmobiles and yet we have a little more than 100 miles of designated ATV trails here in MN. Back in the 70's and 80's we had a similar problem with Snowmobilers. What did we do? We charged them a registration fee, then created a trail system and then we regulate the trail system (enforce them). The problem for the most part has gone away. We have thousands of miles of trial for them but ATV's have less than 200. WIS Department of Tourism did a studytt and found that ATV'rs contribute $296 million dollars to the economy. Wisconsin has 4000 miles of ATV trails for the winter and 1500 miles for the summer. But yet in Mn we have less than 200 miles. MN has more paved bike trails than that and they don't even have to pay a fee to use their trails... SO again not knowing the article, we have over 210,000 ATV's and less than 200 miles of designated trails... And yes even with a trail system we will have bad apples that will do damage the trails are surrounding areas, but if we have a large trail system with enforcement I would guess that we would have less problems just as we have seen with snowmobilers.

I have contacted elected officials and attended as many ATV meetings as possible to gain trails. ATV'rs need to organize on a scale that we have not seen yet to be able to fight for our trails.

I agree stiffer penalties would help. Most of us would not risk a large fine or seizure of our ATV.

[Roofer]

Your argument is very good. I just have to correct that we have more like 1,000 miles of trails here. I don't know exact numbers, but there are a few trails that are 100 miles each. I think the Reddot, moose walk, moose run is close to 100 miles together.

[Dave S]

The entire Soo Line is over 200 miles. Redtop is listed as over 30, Nemadji is over 60, the trails in SE MN account for a total of 30+.

Don't get me wrong, but there are still some issues with a small amount of the snowmobilers, but it's barely a glimmer compared to what they were up against back in the 70's.

[Big Dave2]

There are many miles of club trails that never get listed on any maps also.

[Roofer]

I had to dig into this a little deeper. This reporter (Tom Meersman) has a specific job of reporting on wetlands in MN. From what I hear, this same story is put in the paper every year. I also hear it isn't getting much response so far.

There was a new article yesterday about proposing stiffer penalties for "renegade riders". It will be interesting how this all pans out. Some of you involved probably already know that there will be meetings in the coming months and it will be brought up.

[titelines]

This topic got some air time on FAN Outdoors last night. They spoke with a DNR guy for quite a while about this situation. Download the Podcast if you can - Hour #2.

[southwest]

I own a couple of 4 wheelers but would never tear up someones land or my own. A lot of riders feel its ok to ride where ever

they feel. My father allow a snowmobile club to put a trail thru his crep acreage along a river. Once the snow was gone the

4 -wheelers showed up. riped up the trail, took down the signs and when he tried to catch up to them to tell them stay out, guess what rode away like a bunch of ........well, you know!! Anyone that thinks this is bad reporting is nuts, it happens all over and not by all but mostly by people that think they have rights that dont exist. All they care about is there fun and not about how hard it is to clean up the ruts and replant whatever is ripped out. I thougt it was a good article, sure couldn't fake what they showed, bad apples in every sport, but why would anyone defend that type of behavior. Want to tear up property buy your own an have at it.

[southwest]

you are why article is written, sounds like you could pay a little restituion yourself to change your mind, hope you get caught in the back woods and they throw the book at you. I think they should take atvs until its fixed. Just like a boat or a gun on a overlimit or major violation. Just becuase you have atv you have the right to tear up the back woods.

[Roofer]

I don't think anyone was saying the article was not factual. The point is that, the only reporting done is negative. It makes all of us look bad. It's called stereo-typing or profiling. All of the pictures and video I share are positive and show a good time on legal trails.

[Dave S]

When was the last time any of us saw a newspaper when the majority of the stories were positive?

I'd like to hear something about:

The USA is in the best financial shape it's ever been in.

The USA doesn't have to worry about terrorists anymore.

Every american has 100% health coverage.

The USA finally implements a law to keep incompetent people from becoming president.

In the USA, Americans come first!

The unemployment rate dips below 1%.

Corporate CEO's cannot collect incentive or bonus packages, stock options, or any other financial gain if their company is struggling, moving work overseas, or shutting plants down.

And the best one of all.....

ATV Riders in MN have done their work to establish designated ATV trails.

Sorry, but it's not gonna happen.

[Tom7227]

As a retired prosecutor for several decades I can assure you that the idea of stiffer penalties is a non-starter because they won't be imposed. Particularly metro area prosecutors and judges simply don't have the background to appreciate the issues when it comes to hunting, fishing and outdoors violations. And frankly they're too busy chewing on dopers, hookers and drunks to spend a lot of time on it. I charged out a case a few years ago and the CO told me that I was the only prosecutor he ever dealt with that took the time to understand what was going on and to file a solid case.

There is a thing called the "Uniform Fine Schedule" and it lists the fines for just about every type of misdemeanor except for assault, theft and things like that. There's an entire section for DNR type violatons. If you saw it you would be outraged at how low the fines are. And this is what is supposed to be used by every judge in the state.

The courts rarely enforce the payment of fines and the restitution thing is pretty much a joke. Do you think the outlaws that tear stuff up are going to have the money to pay for the restitution? Not likely.