Car through the ice - does insurance cover that?

[nofishfisherman]

The credit score thing really bothers me. I don't have a single ticket in over 5 years and not one accident claim. I have always paid my insurance on time. Last year I got my renewal and my rates went up after I had some financial problems. I was very upset and called my agent and he just said thats how they do things now. Completely unfair in my oppinion. Its a good example of kicking a guy while he is down. Even though my relationship with them has been stellar, they had to stick their nose in my buisness and look at my relations with others. They should have left it alone.

nofish come on, tight margins. ALL of the big insurance companies that most of us use are profiting hundreds of millions. That is no secret.

Not every company uses creidt to rate a risk. If you don't like the practice find a company that doesn't use it.

I believe I've heard that using credit scores actually reduces premiums for about 60% of people. So the majority of the people probably like it.

Like I said not all do it so find one that doesn't and see what they can do for you.

Believe what you want to believe about margins, I'm not here to convince you of anything. But keep in mind that some of these large insurers could have $100 billions in premium, 3-5% of $100 billion is still $3-5 billion. If you are talking about AIG you have to consider that they were the largest insurer in the entire world. There are plenty of small regional insurance carriers that are not even in the same league as the larger companies. Actually right now alot of companies are reporting huge losses.

[bturck]

nofish: good to hear from the other side of the isle. If we can assume this is work related info can we also get credit for CE (continuinig education LOL) I still maintain my license so CE has to be adhered to each year.

As far as raising rates based on credit???? I have never heard of that happening. At least with the company I represented, once you were qualified as a risk a change in financial status would not have affected premiums as we don't look at credit annually. I know of at least two of my former clients who went through chapter 7 and the premium did not increase due to that financial issue. As I said once you were qualified we did not go back and look at credit each year. In order to do so based on the Freedom of Information Act we would be required to notify the client that we were going to access the information. In fact we don't look at motor vehicle reports annually either. Sorry you had to go through that. I don't agree with that either.

[nofishfisherman]

nofish: good to hear from the other side of the isle. If we can assume this is work related info can we also get credit for CE (continuinig education LOL) I still maintain my license so CE has to be adhered to each year.

As far as raising rates based on credit???? I have never heard of that happening. At least with the company I represented, once you were qualified as a risk a change in financial status would not have affected premiums as we don't look at credit annually. I know of at least two of my former clients who went through chapter 7 and the premium did not increase due to that financial issue. As I said once you were qualified we did not go back and look at credit each year. In order to do so based on the Freedom of Information Act we would be required to notify the client that we were going to access the information. In fact we don't look at motor vehicle reports annually either. Sorry you had to go through that. I don't agree with that either.

Yeah i should have mentioned that as well. I am not aware of any companies that will run credit at renewal. We just run it at the time the policy is first taken out. I can't say if that is the same practice of all companies but they should have informed you if they were going to rerun your creidt at renewal.

[Fish Head]

As I was reading this, I was thinking the same thing as bturck....I should get CE credits for this!!

nofishfisherman- good posts. the rating process is so much more complexed than most people would choose to believe. Actually a 3-5% profit margin would be great. I would put a projected profit margin at closer to 3%, and obviously many times it's a negative. However as you mentioned, thats just the underwriting margin and does not include investment income. Remember back when we actually had investment income??

In the last 5-7 years most insrance companies have went to credit scoring. There are not too many that do not anymore. Our company only checks the credit apon issuing the policy, however at my agency we can check on this and update it with the insurance company if the credit improves, therefore lowering the rate.

I don't know why I even bother to post anymore. Most people (except for those of us in the insurance business) probably stopped reading this stuff by now.

[cribbageboy]

Kind of off topic, but does car color matter when figuring out insurance costs? I was talking with someone who claims that driving a red car increases your insurance rates just because its red. I have a hard time believing this. I CAN understand the why guys have higher rates than girls, but why would anyone drive say a red 2001 F150 differently than a black 2001 F150. Makes exactly NO sense to me.

[fishersofmen]

I have Amer. Fam. which I'm sure many others do as well. I have been with them for years and the first time they ran my credit was at my renewal last year right after I filed chapter 7. I do believe they notified me in fine print somewhere that they could do it. My agent said it is common practice for ins. companies to do this now. Maybe he is pulling my leg I don't know. As far as going somewhere else I tried that after this happend and everyone else was way higher even though my rate had gone up. When I say it went up I mean like $10 a month for 3 cars which isn't too bad. But still enough to make me upset considering my driving record.

[nofishfisherman]

fisherofmen, I can't say for sure why they ran it at your renewal, its not something my company does. Do you remember if they ran your credit at the time you took out the policy? If you had the policy before they instituted their credit policy they may have started to go back and rerate old policies using the credit score now. Generally it would have given you a better rate so most people are happy it does. In your case it would have just been a case of poor timing and once they find your credit score they can't ignore it when calculating your rates.

From my experience companies that do not run credit generally have higher premiums becuase they do not have as sophisticated pricing strategies. They aren't able to predict risk as accurately so they need a larger margin of error. Which results in a higher premium. Thats why companies like this are few and far between now days.

Actually there is some movement to outlaw the use of credit score as a rating variable. I can't remember which state it is but there is one that will not approve any rate increase proposals that include credit as a variable while the matter is still being discussed in the courts.

[fishersofmen]

Yea I don't think they did when I took out the policy so that makes sense if they went back to rerate. I guess I can't complain too much in the end since my rate is still pretty low compared with others I know. 3 cars, 2 with full coverage and 1 with liability for $150 a month. I think before the credit check it was $135. It is what it is, if you mess up your credit you pay more for everything. Oh well........

Thanks for all the info. I think car through the ice had been more than covered so I don't feel too bad about straying off a bit. Lol.

[bturck]

Cribbageboy: I don't know of any company that has an auto rate depicted by vehicle color. The actuaries of the insurance companies can certainly tell which color of vehicles are involved in more accidents, but maybe that's because more vehicles purchased are red. They can also tell what time of day more accidents occurr, as well as the frequency of accidents based on age groups ie: 16 yr olds compared to married 35 yr olds. When I was still in law enforcement I could certainly give you those numbers as well, along with times of the day for severity.

High performance vehicles are another issue however; if you're driving a Trans Am, Corvette Mustang GT Shelby Turbo you will see a different rating factor again based on risk and expense involved with repairs or total loss. 1 more CE credit!!!!

[nofishfisherman]

bturk is right, I'm not aware of any company that rates based on color either.

Come to think of it color may be one of the only factors we don't use to rate the risk on a vehicle.

Racing stripes won't affect premiums either, only thing they affect is the awesomeness of the car.

[ozzie]

and to the ? about the color of a car....my insurance company doesn't even ask for a color so I would have to say it does not matter what color the car is when it comes to insuring....

[Fish Head]

There may have been a company or two out there that had a higher rate for red at one time because I've heard that so many times. But I don't personally know of any company that has ever done that. Our companies do not charge any different rate. In fact, as Ozzie said, we never even ask the color.

fisherofmen- I'm sure American Family did not run your credit originally, as they were one of the last companies to start credit scoring. The timing for you was unfortunate.

[Sniper07]

Here's a good one for you, I've been driving Motorcycles for 30+ years never had a claim. 3 years ago my daughter and I hit a deer and had no choice about it as there was a bunch of them running across the road. Long story short, 2-3 days after accident ins. agent comes to house and tells me that nothing is covered, no ambulance, no hospital ,no doctors etc. I ask what have I been paying insurance for the 30 years for, answer was IDK Sorry. That wreck not only cost me my bike but I also got stuck with 2 ambulance rides,2 hospital bills and the reg doctors bills. The next year when I go to renew my policy for the bike, it was almost 1.5 x's higher, for what they didn't pay out a dime!! IMO insurance is nothing but a big joke, just another way to take advantage of people!

[nofishfisherman]

I think there is something more to this story. Did you have full coverage or liability only?

Did you hit the deer while in the act of committing a felony?

Did you provide false information on the policy?

Did you read your policy and look at your declarations page? It should have been very easy to see if the company should have been on the hook for your bills and bike. If your declarations page shows you have been paying premium for comp/collisions/medical and they refused to pay then its time to lawyer up.

Where you satisfied with simply being told I don't know why you don't have coverage or did you ask for and get an explaination? No reputable company will deny coverage and give you no explaination whatsoever. Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen? Did you call a lawyer or look into it at all?

Like I said I don't think you giving all the details. Insurance companies don't just deny claims that they are legally obligated to pay for no reason at all. It costs much more to defend against the potential lawsuit then it does to just pay the intial claim so there has to be a reason they denied the claim. And I don't believe you let it go at simply being told "I don't know".

If I just had to guess I would say that you probably had a liability only policy. If thats the case then you weren't paying for the coverage you were hoping to get.

If you think insurance is a joke then don't buy it. Just go get minimum limits liability only and pray you never are at fault for an accident. Unless of course you are making payments on your vehicle then your lien holder will have something to say about it.

[ozzie]

minnesota is a no-fault state for automobiles....meaning if you are injured in an automobile accident your medical coverages are covered up to a certain amount (usually $20,000).....but for motorcycles this option is not mandatory and usually it is not taken as the premium is usaully 3-4x the regular premium.......and if they did not cover your bike it is because you did not have comprehensive coverage.....why they raised your bike premium is beyond me but I am sure you probably got a new bike and had to have full coverage and then you probably looked into getting medical and that is where they increased your premium...otherwise why would they care that you crashed you bike if they didn't have to pay a dime on the accident?

[Sniper07]

No I didn't have coverage on the bike and that was my fault (took me 1.5 years to rebuild it), yes I only had liability, but was under the impression it worked the same way as my truck ins. and was never told different. When my daughter flipped my SUV she was in the hospital for 3 days and ins. paid for ambulance and all medical. I'm very careful when I get ins. now and have it all explained to me. I was just venting because I felt our medical and ambulance ride should of been covered. And no I didn't commit a felony nor did I provide false info on my insurance.

[nofishfisherman]

I only asked about the felony and providing false info because those are 2 reasons coverage can be denied pretty quickly.

I am not as familiar with motorcycle insurance because my company does not provide it and I do not own a bike.

Insurance isn't all that simple so it pays to ask a lot of questions and have someone walk you through coverages. Its one of those things you only tend to learn only when it becomes necessary and sometimes it might be too late. I know you are not alone in that. Everyone needs a good agent to work with, part of their job is educating you on what you have and what you don't have.

I hope your bike is back on the road as its finally getting warm enough to ride it.

[opsirc]

Insurance isn't all that simple so it pays to ask a lot of questions and have someone walk you through coverages. Its one of those things you only tend to learn only when it becomes necessary and sometimes it might be too late. I know you are not alone in that. Everyone needs a good agent to work with, part of their job is educating you on what you have and what you don't have.

is that why insurance policy paperwork is getting as thick as that of a bank loan? It takes a laywer to explain all the dos, don,ts and other items written into the contract. What about the stories that some one has a fire and the agent offers the poor owners ten cents on the dollar to buy replacement stuff, even when an item may have been only a day old! personnally, I look at insurance as a necessary evil. The last company we used, the adjuster lie to us. I was told if we kept the claim under a $1000, our rates would not go up. I paid extra out of my pocket to keep it under. Next renewal time rates went up.

[nofishfisherman]

I've actually seen actual paper work go down since so much more is done paperless now and quotes/applications are done largely over the internet.

I'm in auto insurance so i can't say much about homeowners insurance or receiving 10 cents on the dollar for lost items. I would say that would be easy to argue since how can an insurance company calculate depreciation on a pair of jeans, or a couch, or anything really. I've never actually heard of this being done so I won't comment any further.

With a car depreciation is documented and calculations exist, not so with other items.

Now for your adjuster. Adjusters can be a real problem. They are the face of the company at the time of a claim and some of them are terrible. Also its common for a company to hire a third party vendor to do their adjusting. For various reasons they may not always be upfront with you or give you the best payout. If you have a problem I encourage you to call your insurer and tell them whats going on. There are processes in place to take a second look at the claim. If you aren't happy with the outcome politely work with the company. You would be surprised at how much they will work with you. From my personal experience I had a car that was rear ended and was totaled due to its age and damage to the exhaust. They offered me $1200 for it, I said I would like them to take a second look and they had a process in place for that and they sought a second opinion. They came back in 2 days with a 2nd offer of $2500, over double their original. It pays to make the phone call, just keep it civil, the people who you are talking to generally have no say in the amount you are being offered so be nice to them.

[fishersofmen]

nofish I have to give you some credit, thanks for all the info today. It sounds like you are in a tough buisness.

[Caleb S]

They offered me $1200 for it, I said I would like them to take a second look and they had a process in place for that and they sought a second opinion. They came back in 2 days with a 2nd offer of $2500, over double their original. It pays to make the phone call, just keep it civil, the people who you are talking to generally have no say in the amount you are being offered so be nice to them.

-nofisherman, you have many good points throughout this post. If an offer is made to settle a claim such this (total loss vehicle) there is a specific state approved way all vehicles are valued with the company. If a total loss offer is made and it doesn't seem right you should ask your adjuster to review/explain how it was valued. Many times people receive an offer which meets or exceeds what they even think the vehicle is worth but they will still demand more. Some people think an insurance claim is a way to make money. The purpose of insurance is to put you in the same place you were before the loss occured, not put you in a better situation.

As for treatment of the adjusters, you are right on. Most times the adjuster will be happy to listen to you and discuss the claim if you are civil and have valid points. If you are agressive and demanding you have successfully made your goal of negotiating the claim more difficult. Be calm, civil and reasonable. The person on the other end of the phone is not out to cheat anyone and is probably someone you would be happy to share a boat with and catch some walters.

[nofishfisherman]

nofish I have to give you some credit, thanks for all the info today. It sounds like you are in a tough business.

I'm glad I could provide some information. There was alot of good info from Fish Head and bturck as well. Its good to get perspectives from both sides of the insurance business.

[bturck]

Sniper: I note on your avatar screen that you list NY as your residence. Each State governs the insurnace industry within that State through an Insurance Commissioners office. Minnesota insurance law is different from other States and there fore tough to comment specifically. I don't know if NY madates medical etc on a bike policy, or even allows it to be offered as an endorsement but that could be an issue here as to whether it was offered by the agent or even allowed to be offered.

Regarding the question of Replacement Cost; This is an area that my agency went to great lengths to explain to our clients, of which we have many. Replacement is the operative word here. In the event of a loss lets say fire, the contents coverage will be covered at ACV, Actual Cash Value, with a depreciated amount being paid for items lost or destroyed. Again, lets visit the word Replacement, once you replace any of the items that have been paid the depreciated price for you will be remimbursed for the differenc. Ie: TV destroyed by lightning, ACV paid 250.00. You go to Best Buy, Sears wherever and find the same like, kind and quality of TV and the cost is 700.00. Present that paid receipt to the claims dept showiing REPLACEMENT and you will be paid the difference on that item of $450. You also have 180 days to do this (six months) it doesn't have to be done the next day. We've had a claim where the people lost 4 TV's and opted not to replace one of them, therefore they had ACV payout on that TV, Did not replace and therefore did not get the difference. However the ACV payment on that unit could be spent on anything they desired. In 23 years I never saw a settlement that paid out 10 cents on a dollar, that soounds more like a bankrupcty settlement. There are vendors that insurance companies use who determiine the average life span of everything from you ice auger to you ice maker and that is how the depreciation is calculated. There is always some monetary value left regardless of how long you/ve owned it. Hopefully this will give a little better perspective on Replacement. My advice is if you have any questions regarding your coverages or policy exclusions call your agent, set up an eye ball to eye ball meeting and find out exactly what you have. Thats what you pay him or her for, and I would tell you if you can't get that type of service from you agent its time to move on.

[LindellProStaf]

Most companies do cover you on the ice. I asked my ins guy about it. I said what about someone making a bad decision about when to go out on the ice. He said the few cars that go through is not a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of bad decisions people make every day driving on the road. You are covered unless there is specific statement saying you aren't covered on ice and he said that is not common.

[broken_line]

is there such a thing as fish house insurance???