I think the deer will die this winter.

[propster]

Not sure about TB, but absolutely no proof CWD is spread by sharing feeders or anything like that. Still speculating.

[SSSTaxidermy]

I believe most deer herds will be fine. They are tough animals and have survived many many winters before this one.…I have a feeling that deer and along with most other animals, knew it was going to be a long hard winter, and have been preparing for it long before we even knew anything. If for some reason, old man winter continues this cold stretch and accumulates considerable amount of snow, sure the herd numbers will diminish. Facts prove that. But I also think, there is a reason for this too…We just don’t know what that reasoning is.

It’s mother nature…We’ve all heard the saying, “Mother Nature has to take it’s course.” This is maybe a true example. Maybe it is her way of saying…”I’m in charge here!” Not your harvest management programs (both personal and law abiding).

[96trigger]

Note from admin, please read forum policy before posting again, thank you.

Mother nature is a density independent factor. It has no regard for population or species when it strikes, it will effect a small heard just as hard as it will effect a large herd. Whereas food is density dependent. Put the two together and you have reason to worry. As for wolves, the predator prey relationship is cyclical. AS the predator population grows, the prey population will decrease, when the prey population decreases enough, the predator population will fall, and the cycle continues.

I guess that personally, I think you are wrong. The bucks that have been run down from the rut, are going to be the ones that die, and they will be the ones that will benefit the most from feeding the deer, not the super fat does that have beem stockpiling and building fat all fall. The snow hit early this year, the bucks didnt' have a lot of time to put back on the feedbag. That is why I think your statement is ignorant, not you personally. Read what I said.

I have every right to say that I disagree with your statement or think that it is unfounded. More than one person on here also stated that the does are going to be better fitted for survival if we have a harsh winter. How is that going to help anybody that is trying QDM? It is not. This winter might not turn out to be bad, but it already shaping up to be worse than last year. Who knows, we might have an early spring and the deer might be fine, but the bucks around here last spring were looking pretty bad, and does were still looking pretty good. I can get some pics of one skinny, sick looking buck eating the shrubs around the house, and the does with him were in much better shape. And I don't think that last year was a very brutal winter.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Note from admin, please read forum policy before posting again, thank you.

[96trigger]

Yes, A Bachelor of Science in Biology, A minor in chemistry, and a masters in Education, if you really must know, or if it makes me credible.

Also, maybe ignorant was a little harsh, I'm sorry if you took it personally, it wasn't meant to be personal. In this state there are numerous areas that don't have a great deer population, your statement made it seemed like you wished for a harsh winter kill to "stick it" to the QDM'rs and show them what its like to have a poor deer population. Then we'd all be happy and thankful just to see a deer. I guess I don't agree with that and like verybody to be able to go out and harvest deer successfully and keep the tradition going, if that means feeding deer, than so be it.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Well alrighty then! We both are current on our sciences.

See, it all comes down to personal beliefs and ethics in the end! I'm more of a purist then the majority of the people here.

Hence my not being to excited about baiting, food plots, and management strategies that are put in place to increase "trophies".

[96trigger]

I'm all about natural selection, but I also like to hunt, and sometimes, if we can help skew that process a bit. I don't mind. Seriously, no hard feelings Brule.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

your statement made it seemed like you wished for a harsh winter kill to "stick it" to the QDM'rs and show them what its like to have a poor deer population.

No, I definitely like seeing deer. However, a good harsh winter would put the breaks on all the chatter about QDM wouldn't it? I guess that has been something I feel those that are promoting it need to keep in mind. And that reality may come to pass this next year.

[Bear55]

I don't think a harsh winter is going to all of the sudden change the beliefs of the true QDM guys. I don't care if the only deer I see all season is a spiker, I'm letting him walk. I'm sure a few guys on the fence will shoot the first buck they see but for most of us QDM is a life long choice.

Like other have said when a bad winter hits the bucks and the fawns (next years young bucks) go first, so if we get slammed this winter, all deer hunters suffer.

I is probably a little early to worry too much about the winter yet but its something to keep an eye on.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

for most of us QDM is a life long choice.

For you that is a great choice to make. I just don't want to see your choice as a mandate for those of us who do not "choose".

[Bear55]

Big Dave

That is fine but why not meet in the middle? Change up a few regs to let some younger bucks live a little longer. A lot of the non-QDM guys don't seem to know what they are missing. Pennsylvania went with AR and everyone complained, guess what happened after a few years. Thats right people started seeing and shooting bigger deer. I don't think anyone in the state is fighting to get the regs changed back.

[Big Dave2]

I wouldn't say that everyone is happy. I found this article on the internet.

It all started with the haunting sound of our deep-throated coyotes in a group howl, moving closer and closer to our farm, striking fear into the bucks in our clover field, and the report by a neighbor of a deer at night keeping her up with hideous bawling. Something is different here in my beloved valley. As a livestock owner, I worry that my goats and calves are going to be targeted as easy prey when the fawns are gone.

For several years now, hunting friends have become more and more disgusted with the Game Commission's management practices. They are paying more, and see fewer deer each year. Some of them have given up the sport altogether. Others just continue to trudge through season after fruitless season. We are told that our deer numbers are still high, but none of us believe it. Sure, there are more bucks that survive, now that we have antler restrictions, but there is even a dirty little secret behind that. In most states, quality deer management is run by sportsmen for sportsmen. Here in PA, however, the Game Commission seems to be sleeping with the enemy.

I was one of the skeptical ones when our renowned wildlife biologist came up with the idea of antler restrictions. I griped a bit, since my time afield has been so severely limited by poor health, that I might have to pass up the one and only deer that passes by my stand. I was relieved to learn that my daughter, as a Junior hunter, was not subject to the rule of counting points. Any buck was legal for her. This helped when she saw her first buck run through an opening in the thick forest. She did not have to actually see that "barely there" brow tine before bleating him to a stop and squeezing the trigger. The thrill of being there with her relieved the sting of another empty season for me. However, the liberal doe season introduced in the "quality management" program ensured a deerless season for many the following year. I do admit the bucks are looking bigger this year...but where are the does? Where are the fawns? My suspicions are deepening. What could possibly be wrong with a quality management plan? Back to the part about sleeping with the enemy...

When the Pennsylvania Game Commission first outlined the new management plan, I read everything I could find on their site. One thing I did find sent chills up and down my spine. Guess who was "helping" with the study of the deer population? None other than the Audubon Society! Now what would a group largely funded by bird-watchers and anti-hunting tree-huggers have to do with quality deer management? More importantly, why would a commission funded by sportsmen be working with an organization known for its radical environmental views and anti-hunting sentiments? To me, that is like al-Qaida "helping" the Department of Homeland Security secure the safety of the USA! They cannot possibly have the future of hunting in mind.

The Audubon Society is not at all like the man whose name they bear. Their namesake was a hunter, make no mistake. He was also a conservationist in the true sense of the word. "Conservation" means "wise use". The very term implies we have a right to use the wonderful bounties of nature, but we do so in a way that makes sure there is enough left over for generations beyond to enjoy. Unfortunately, the Audubon Society believes that there should be great swaths of land totally off limits to all human use. They, along with other far-left eco-terrorist organizations such as "Earth First" and the Humane Society, have designs for our great outdoor heritage that does NOT include hunters. Through a United Nations "Biodiversity Treaty" inspired plan called "The Wildlands Project", human beings are targeted to be gradually...or not so gradually in the West...squeezed out of their own land through land use restrictions and the deliberate removal of roads. Is this mere paranoia on my part? Read this report from a Central Pennsylvania site and judge for yourselves:

Suddenly it all makes sense. Fewer deer, hunters losing interest and not passing on the tradition, a sudden abundance of large predators, and whisperings of reintroduction of even larger predators, the wolf and the mountain lion. A neighbor just told me that a large number of cougars was released on the Tuscarora Mountain between Millerstown to our east and Blain to our west. More lunatic claims? Not when you read the grandiose plans of the radical tree-huggers. I learned that "MY" mountain has specifically been targeted for their wilderness area, with plans to re-introduce the wolf and the lion...so that my role in the balance of nature is ultimately extinguished.

There is a fundamental difference between my love for Creation and their love for their nature god...Yes, they have set nature apart as a god unto itself. They believe that these large, inaccessible tracts of land in PA are to be "self-willed" As a Christian, I believe I am to be a wise steward of Creation.These people see humans as a curse upon the Earth, which they worship. And my Game Commission is working with the likes of these nuts!

Paranoid? Maybe I am, but that does not mean that the animal rights activists are NOT out to get me and steal my precious hunting heritage!

[Bear55]

Sounds more like a problem with fewer deer numbers than anything else. We seem to have that same problem here, too bad we don't have their buck problem.

[sticknstring]

Well this post made it 3 pages before it turned into another what-to-shoot debate. Better than what I would have guessed.

[kr8r.tom]

sounds like the same problem as here "wheres all the deer?" and the dnr sleeping with the enemy....can you say "insurance companies" and "swiss bank account"

[Bear55]

Sorry stick, my fault too.

Back on subject, do the deer have a better chance to make it to next years rut than the Vikings have to make the palyoffs?

Tough to bet agaist the deer, the Vikes ehhh....

[winterwalleye]

I agree with sweedish pimple. The herd will shrink and the management areas will be lottery because of the DNR management practices. If we want more people hunting and youth involved why have areas where you can shoot 5 deer when your 1 bad winter from it being a lottery? Youth will not be interested in hunting if they go hunting and have little chance of getting or seeing a deer. Let mother take care of the herd not the DNR with there shooting of 5 deer!!!!

[Grant Pearson]

Granted, this winter is going to be tough for the deer. It's going to be tougher than the last few winters we've had. There will be die offs this winter, no question about it. I am willing to safely bet that there were die offs the last few mild winters we've had. This year there's definitely going to be a bigger die off. Mother Nature will run her course and the strong will survive. If there's enough concern, it would be smart of the DNR to do a spring ariel survey and see how the herd survived and set the deer season based on that. Also, I don't think that it would hurt to put some feed out for them. I've noticed a few on here complain that "all the deer are going to die," yet at the same time, they're preaching "don't feed the deer because of CWD and Bovine TB. what is the answer then? If a herd of deer are feeding in a freshly picked field, are they less likely to contract those diseases if thier noses touched because it's in a field and not a pile of bait that someone put out? That's my two cents.

[Big Dave2]

Well this post made it 3 pages before it turned into another what-to-shoot debate. Better than what I would have guessed.

Sorry..........I forgot which thread I was in!

[otis32]

this is a tuff subject!! I think we should have QDM, should be able to leave our portable stands up all deer season, and should be able to shoot timber wolves and cats!! LET THE KIDS SHOOT WHAT EVER THEY WANT !! I would shoot deer in the TB zone for only $500 a deer instead of $900 the DNR paid the sharp shooters last year!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zdmiller]

QDM is a poor management, its a human corruption of the natural selection that has no real benefit for the herd. On the other hand winter kill affects the weak and sick first which is a very natural and beneficial process for the herd. I also don't agree with those who consider only dead wolves as good wolves because they like to see deer. The number of whitetail deer that we have today is undeniably due to anthropological causes as is the lack of wolves which have just recently,( 3 decades ),returned to a healthy population. There are instance,such as wolves threatening livestock which inflicts damages on personal livelihoods, in which someone should be allowed to take wolves freely, but to take wolves to save deer is just [PoorWordUsage] and selfish. These attitudes on wolves make us hunters look backward to the rest of the nonhunting population. Us hunters are not the only utilizing public property, there are plenty of wildlife watchers who would love to see wolves who pay the same amount of taxes as you and I. So kill wolves to protect your livelyhood, but not to protect your deer.

Bottom line, QDM is [PoorWordUsage], killing wolves to stop predation on game [PoorWordUsage]. Winter kills and loss of deer to wolves, natural process.

[zdmiller]

this is a tuff subject!! I think we should have QDM, should be able to leave our portable stands up all deer season, and should be able to shoot timber wolves and cats!! LET THE KIDS SHOOT WHAT EVER THEY WANT !! I would shoot deer in the TB zone for only $500 a deer instead of $900 the DNR paid the sharp shooters last year!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree, you should be able to pay them 15$ to hunt instead of them incurring a hardship on taxpayers to hire a paid hunter.

I think to kill off all wolves is selfish and ignorant, and cats thats disgusting. Why should we let cats prosper? Why would we want a beautiful animal like that in good population in our woods for the first time in a century? I can tell you, for one thing both of these predators have the potential to draw in tourist activity to our northwoods from all over, which means a boosted local economy in our rural cities, this lasts longer than a few weekends. I think your response is reactionary, and dangerous. When you take out a key order predator you not only exterpate that predator but you completely change a habitat. The habitat that we have today is far different and less diverse and healthy than it was 100 years ago. Only 100 years ago we had native elk and caribou in the state to name two important sport species. Now we have a small population of non-native elk (though the kittson co. herd is arguable where they originated)and an odd caribou wanders down from canada now and again. We will likely never again be able to support a healthy herd of caribou because of their suseptability of CWD brought in by whitetails into regions of the northeast that the whitetail had not previously, and in my opinion no buisiness, inhabiting. If the herd was properly managed at the end of the 19th century begining of the 20th we would have huntable populations of caribou.

You can just outright say kill all higher order predators in name of the sport of deer hunting, but that is ecologically detrimental and selfish. Think of the full implications of getting rid of predators and educate yourself before you form reactionary opinions. The outcome hasn't been all that good since the settlement of this country, which was for the better i believe, so maybe its time for people in this community to start changing our attitudes.

[archerystud]

QDM is a poor management, its a human corruption of the natural selection that has no real benefit for the herd.

[swedishpimple]

I have read in a few books and magazine articles how the "patchwork" of farms and woods and even CRP or grassland areas has created ideal whitetail habitat across much of the nation. It is my understanding that there are far more deer now than when the white man first stepped foot on this continent. This is not true for the bison or ducks but whitetail yes, most likely from a change in habitat.

I would think Extreme Northeastern Minnesota (ie. near the Boundary Waters) would provide a living laboratory in the big woods. Much of this area has not been cleared and farmed. This would seem to be a logical place to study wolf, deer, cold and snow relationships much like Isle Royale on Superior. The deer are not feeding on food plots fields or feeders in these remote areas.

Most hunters probably would not care and it would be a waste of tax payer dollars because very few people hunt in these remote areas anyways....but it would be interesting.

[brittman]

Deep, soft, powdery snow ... grouse and snowmobilers have been waiting a long time for this kind of winter.

Deer are fine now, but if January and February are repeats of December (or worse), deer popluation will get knocked down.