small buck or anything

[SkitterPopper]

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I feel that genetics are overrated when it comes to growing big deer, sure they need to have good genes when you are talking about B&C deer vs a 140 but give me a 5.5 buck with good food and he will be a trophy to just about anyone. Sure there might be a few bad apples but I think they are few and far in between.

I have hunted public land in central Minnesota for 20 years and I have never seen a 5 1/2 year old deer, nor have I seen one registered by our party of 10. I guess if you own acreage this might ring true for you. I know hunting public land is a whole different story. Do I shoot spikes or forks, NO. I can say there are very few 5 1/2 year old deer walking around any public land in Minnesota. I am still waiting to see one walk by. The thing about public land is that not everyone is looking for a trophy and when you see one deer all season and you really enjoy venison, well you know the outcome. I should also mention I hunt a doe lottery area so not everyone gets a doe tag.

[NAMASafetyDirector]

I would have to agree with frogtosser on his point, in the area I hunt we have about 90 acres of land which is surrounded by about 800 acres of hunting land owned by three other seperate parties that do the "brown it's down hunt". Therefore it seems futile to try to do any sort of management of bucks. However bucks are bucks and the ratio to does in our area is severely outnumbered so I try to shoot only does unless a "good one" comes by. It's your call though, if you need the meat shoot away, beef aint cheap anymore!

[slimngrizzly]

You answered your own question, I have passed up buckSSSS, plural, I did what I could, now I want venison. Your theory about shooting one right away is [PoorWordUsage]. If we all thought like that, there would be no QDM. I would much rather have a hunter pass on small bucks (again plural) and the take one (singular) if he hadn't gotten one (again singular) yet that year. In the long run, passing on many, and possibly having to take one, will do more for QDM than taking the first buck right away, the end result will NOT be the same.

I dont have a problem if you want to shoot a small buck. Your correct, its your right..... but dont act like your practicing QDM! That is not! If you have 50 hunters and 50 bucks in a 5 square mile area and all those guys pass up MULTIPLE BUCKS (plural) all season........ follow me..... then late season, they ALLL SHOOT JUST ONE (sngular)........ Guess how many bucks you have left???? THATS RIGHT, NONE!!! That is not Quality Deer Management.

Im just trying to point it out. I know its not what you like to hear, but thats a mathematical fact! And practicing QDM means doing it all season! Everyone do what they want youve earned it, its your right,.... but dont act like your helping anything in the way of QDM if your killing a little buck. Thats all im saying.

[Bear55]

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P&Y minimum with a bow is 125 inches

That is for a typical deer. Non typical is 155. I also think that comparing SE Minnesota with the rest of the state is like comparing apples to oranges. You can take one look at the Boone and Crocket map and see that SE MN and SW WI is a hot bed for record book entries. The keywords are corn/beans/farmland. I hunt mostly in northern Mille Lacs county and also have land in Iowa to hunt. I do know the difference between a 3 1/2 year old trophy and a 3 1/2 year old that should be taken out of the gene pool. Once again this is personal preference and we are all adults and can make decisions. This debate comes up every year on several forums. We just have respect that people are different and not everyone is going to agree on everything. To say that no one should not shoot a buck under P&Y or B&C caliber is just unrealistic.

You might be able to determine if a 3.5 year has poor gene's in Iowa but I feel a 3.5 on public land in MN might be a 100 inch 8 pointer, if you give that deer a couple of years he is going to catch up to his Iowa cousin.

[96trigger]

OK slim, the problem, is that the likelihood of all 50 hunters not seeing does, and all 50 taking small bucks is very slim. If I am one of 50 buck hunters practice QDM and 49 of them take does and pass on small bucks, but I don't get my shot at a doe and take a small buck, has QDM still been practiced? I think so, you may not, but I do. Thats all I'm saying. We should not look down on the guy that gives other little bucks the opportunity to grow, but when push comes to shove, shoots what presents itself. We are just going to have to agree to disagree, I think that you can try QDM, and can follow it, but still shoot an immature buck as a last resort and still consider yourself a practicer of QDM.

BTW, great discussion, and I do like the ODN publication.

[Bear55]

Quote:

I feel that genetics are overrated when it comes to growing big deer, sure they need to have good genes when you are talking about B&C deer vs a 140 but give me a 5.5 buck with good food and he will be a trophy to just about anyone. Sure there might be a few bad apples but I think they are few and far in between.

I have hunted public land in central Minnesota for 20 years and I have never seen a 5 1/2 year old deer, nor have I seen one registered by our party of 10. I guess if you own acreage this might ring true for you. I know hunting public land is a whole different story. Do I shoot spikes or forks, NO. I can say there are very few 5 1/2 year old deer walking around any public land in Minnesota. I am still waiting to see one walk by. The thing about public land is that not everyone is looking for a trophy and when you see one deer all season and you really enjoy venison, well you know the outcome. I should also mention I hunt a doe lottery area so not everyone gets a doe tag.

I also hunt public land 95% of the time and there are big deer out there if you are willing to put in the time and effort. Now I am not saying you don't but a lot of guys don't put in the work neccessary to find a mature buck on public land.

[Mark Christianson]

If QDM is your goal, then taking the immature bucks is not helping your effort.

If you hunt some land for deer for the pure enjoyment of hunting deer, then taking an immature buck is completely fine.

I think there is a lot of assumption in this thread that everyone should practice QDM.

QDM can only be truely successful if everyone practices it. And we all know that there is a huge split in views on QDM, which is a whole topic in its own right.

[96trigger]

I also bow hunt land that is basically public (crops are private, woods is public), I have some nice mature bucks on camera, and even shot one last year. But, I put in massive amounts of time scouting and in the stand during bow season. Somehow, those big guys make it throught the firearm season. I don't know how, but they show up year after year, but then disappear as soon as the first shotgun blast on opening morning.

Quote:

If QDM is your goal, then taking the immature bucks is not helping your effort.

Well, I guess its not, my goal is to put venison in the freezer. I do that with does, and a mature buck if it happens to come along. Maybe I should just adopt the brown its down mentality because evidently passing on the smaller bucks isn't QDM if the only deer I get after passing on smaller bucks is to eventually end up shooting one. I guess its just my way of holding out for a bigger deer, but again, thats my preference, and not QDM. I'm not sure what to call it.

[Mark Christianson]

I completely hear and understand ya 96.

I am not disagreeing.

We are stuck in a spot where trying to practice QDM to its fullest potential is futile. Our neighboring land owners could care less. They shoot everything that moves, and to add to that, the number of deer they have lost in the last 5 years is sickening. They are complete hacks.

So, I use your same thoughts basically. Pass on smaller ones, and depending on the situation, my standards get readjusted according to what we want out of the hunt.

Not what others think we should do with our hunt.

We started by thinking some flavor of QDM a handful of years ago was what we wanted. Since then, as we learned some things, our goals are a bit different now.

And honestly, 5 years from now, I am willing to bet our goals will be different again. Gotta change with the times I say.

For example, If those bozos next to us on the one side were to sell out, and someone buys that land that cares about QDM or some form of it, we would surely make adjustments.

[Bear55]

OK slim, the problem, is that the likelihood of all 50 hunters not seeing does, and all 50 taking small bucks is very slim. If I am one of 50 buck hunters practice QDM and 49 of them take does and pass on small bucks, but I don't get my shot at a doe and take a small buck, has QDM still been practiced? I think so, you may not, but I do. Thats all I'm saying. We should not look down on the guy that gives other little bucks the opportunity to grow, but when push comes to shove, shoots what presents itself. We are just going to have to agree to disagree, I think that you can try QDM, and can follow it, but still shoot an immature buck as a last resort and still consider yourself a practicer of QDM.

BTW, great discussion, and I do like the ODN publication.

I totally agree with you. You may not be practicing total QDM but you are at least you are trying. If a lot more people took this approch I think it would help.

[slimngrizzly]

QDM is something i obviously agree with very strongly. Im very passionate about trophy deer and big antlers. I dont mean to tear anyone down here.

I apologize 96, and whoever else feels im attacking your values.

I think its interesting, the fact we can even have a debate about QDM shows how far its come! If we brought this topic up a decade ago, Im confident that hardly anyone would even have known anything about it or what it meant! I guess thats a good sign of how far its come along already. Overall hunters are becoming far more educated about "deer", that hasnt always been so. It has a long ways to go as well.

I dont mean to be rude, but if you want my 2 cents about deer or deer management. Sorry but Ill give you 10! Keep the change

Thanks guys!

[Bear55]

I really feel that education is the key, everyone is learning more and more about deer in general and QDM. I feel that the younger generation is more open to change and like slim has said look how far things have come in 10 years. It will be interesting to see where we will be in 10 more years. I try to teach everyone I can about anything deer related and QDM if they are willing to listen. For those that don't care for QDM I try and lead by example.

[96trigger]

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It will be interesting to see where we will be in 10 more years. I try to teach everyone I can about anything deer related and QDM if they are willing to listen. For those that don't care for QDM I try and lead by example.

I think that's all any of us can do.

Slim, no need for aplologies, its why I love this site, just when I start thinking I understand something, someone else comes on here and makes an extremely valuable point that I may never have thought of and again, I have to rethink my stand on things. Its a good thing to get these going as long as they are respectful, (which they were).

Who needs the presidential debates when we have the forum.

[sticknstring]

It's funny how these debates get brought up time & time again... virtually in nearly every post in the deer/archery forum. Just shows how passionate as a whole we are about our deer hunting which is a good thing. It takes discipline to participate in QDM and it seems every season is a repeat of the last for me. Pass on numerous dink bucks throughout the course of season and eat another buck tag. I keep telling myself that I'll be rewarded next year with something decent but it's the same 'ol story. Pretty frustrating... If the age structure isn't there... it isn't there. End of story. Work with what you got or find a different place to hunt. One individual striving for goals with regulations that work in the opposite direction are fruitless. An example can me made but you needs a lot of followers to start seeing results. Most folks aren't fortunate with large tracts of contiguous land that can managed however they like, most are dictated by the way MN has regulated the deer heard for decades... shoot away.

[HNTNBUX]

I don't own any land or have family that owns land. I started out shooting any deer that came by me. I hunted hard, most weeks five days a week. I was obsessed to say the least. The first year took me until the last day to get a five point buck which is still mounted on my wall. The next year the last day I got a doe fawn. Over the years I got to the point where I would shoot double digit numbers of deer. Then finally it happened, I shot a "big" one, and then a week later another one. It has been game on ever since and I will not shoot another small buck unless I'm starving to death.

I do what it takes for me to be able to shoot the kind of deer I want. I still hunt several days a week through all seasons, go out of state on multiple trips(DIY), etc. I do what I can to make my odds go up. Without owning the land I hunt on my only real option to affect the deer herd is to shoot does and let the little ones go. Even if everyone else is shooting brown it's down, the bucks I passed on may fill someone else's tag but not mine and that is one buck that will make it to next year.

If everyone would pass on the small ones it makes sense we would have more mature deer around. Is that going to happen, no way. I firmly believe that hunting is what people want to make it. If you want to hunt hard passing up deer until the last day and then shoot a buck that you have passed up five times, go for it. You got to hunt all year long and enjoy the season and you got your buck. Next year you will probobly do the same thing because there might not be the numbers of big deer around but that is your choice. Every hunter based on their experience and definition of success should be allowed to make their own choice. Just don't complain to me that you never see or shoot big deer when you keep doing the same thing over and over and the results never change.

[96trigger]

BUX, I agree with you. I do have one question? Is the reason people shoot little bucks because they never see big bucks? It seems like some of the big QDMers on here say that to each his own, but then don't say you never see a big buck if you take a little one.

In my area, if people are shooting little bucks because they haven't seen any big bucks they are wrong, or there are other reasons that they haven't seen big bucks. I have come on here and consistently said that Minnesota (my area at least) has some big bucks and that we have to go out and actually put in a lot of time to get them. Minnesota is not like Monster Bucks XXIMVX, they are wild, unpenned and very, very difficult to get, but still possible. More big Bucks are taken because hunters have put in the time, some do get lucky, but some hunters score year after year. I think it has a lot to do with where they are, and also what they are doing in terms of hunting, not necessarily all management.

My point is, I never saw big bucks years ago, my deer hunted consisted of zone 3B, we saw deer, but never any large bucks. I'd see people shooting nice bucks and wonder where they are, and of course, assume that all the big bucks got shot during 3A. So, at the time, I could simply complain about not seeing big deer, or I could buy a bow, get very proficient at it, put in massive amounts of time, have 10 different deer stands, and go out and try and get a big one. I don't always get one, but I do see them now and then.

[Stratosman]

You gotta remember, little bucks get shot by hunters for a reason, during the rut they are by far the easiest deer in the woods to kill, they run around all worked up without a care in the world. The real mature deer have been there before, they don't let thier guard down as easy.

"More big Bucks are taken because hunters have put in the time, some do get lucky, but some hunters score year after year. I think it has a lot to do with where they are, and also what they are doing in terms of hunting, not necessarily all management."

But aren't the hunters that consistantly shoot bigger deer practing managment by only shooting mature deer?

I agree with you that the folks that say they never see big deer so there aren't any are wrong as well. You can't sit in the same squeaky old tree stand for 4 or 5 days a season and say there aren't any big deer. I put on average about 60 days in my stands, am I always sucessful, no. But I usually see about 3-5 bucks per season that I would take a run at. And in the meantime usually put a doe or two on the ground, so meat isn't the issue. If I simply wanted any buck, my season would rarely last into October, but to me, using the entire season and enjoying the time in the woods is just as important than the actual harvest, heck, once your out of tags, your done hunting!

[Scott K]

I have a question for you all that live for QDM, I have hunted zone 4 most of my life. 4a was 2 day hunt, 4b 4 day hunt. Doe permits dont flow freely here. Maybe 1 in 10 hunters get them. So if I dont get a doe permit, and paid for my buck tag, but only see 1 or 2 bucks the entire 2 or 4 day hunt and neither are 3.5 year olds, I am not suppose to shoot either of the only 2 bucks I see? So how many years of buying a buck tag, not getting a doe permit, and letting the basket racks go so others can shoot them, do I need to go through, before I should give up hunting, or take a basket rack?

Just because a few people are fortunate enough to get a chance to take does, or have the time and land to let many bucks walk so they can let them grow into mature bucks, doesnt mean that the majority of the people have those options! I used to have a hunting party of 8 people, on a good year we would get 2 doe permits, and we would fill them, and usually get a couple bucks. So that is 4 deer for 8 people, now if we let all young non p&y bucks go, we would only get 2 deer a year if we were lucky to get any doe permits for 8 people. How many people would continue to hunt with no or minimal meat for several years to maybe get lucky to shoot a bigger buck if it didnt run to some one else to get shot?

Dont get me wrong, I have been fortunate enough to shoot several nice bucks over the years, but I did have some prime land to hunt. I wouldnt mind a few bigger racks out there to shoot at, but for me, I like the meat, and if I dont get a chance to get some with a doe or a large buck, I will take a small buck. "You cant eat the rack!" and I would much rather have a nice doe, or a young buck to eat, then some old smelly big buck!

[96trigger]

Quote:

But aren't the hunters that consistantly shoot bigger deer practing managment by only shooting mature deer?

Excellent point and I do want to give management its fair due, but I also think that people like us that have a passion for whitetails, maybe do a little more than the average hunter. I think most of the people on this site are more than your average hunter or they wouldn't be on here. And those young bucks are reallly dumb during rut. I suppose that they are going to be the easiest to kill, they are a lot less weary than the does. I actually think making a lottery doe season during 3A has really helped the buck population down here. Those meat hunters that go buck season (3A), might just take a doe over the small buck, or be more apt to hold out for a mature buck if they know that they can shoot a doe.

Your hunting situation sounds a lot like mine, every year I see 2-3 bucks that I would put on my wall (all bow season). I don't always get a shot at them, but I'll see them in the fields from a ways off. I know that they are there. Lately I've been getting at least one shot a year at a nice buck, but that can change.

4wandering, I don't envy your situation and I totally understand where you are coming from even though some might not. I am old enough to remember when 3B was lottery permit and maybe half of your party got drawn for a doe tag. I eat many a tag a year, I almost always eat my buck tag, sometimes both for the firearm and bow season, I use my management tags whenever possible. Its a $54 dollar donation more often than not, but I'm OK with that.

[Scott K]

I was using this as a past experience, I hunt in Wisconsin now, and I have no problem getting meat for the freezer, but this was how it was for me before, and still is for many in zone 4, and I am sure many other areas.

[Stratosman]

Wandering eye's,

I totally get your point.

I am no way saying that managing hunting land is going to work everywhere...first off, you need to have control of the land, secondly there needs to be enough land to manage, and there needs to be a certain level of genetics on the property. ANd I also think terrrain has alot to do with it. The rougher and thicker the land, the better.

And for the record there is no way that I would endorse any sort of legislated QDM by the DNR, it needs to be on the hunter or landowner level to decide what do do with the deer on thier property or what they hang on thier buck pole. Now i wouldn't mind seeing the season moved back two or three weeks, that, in most parts of the state, would decrease the amount of 1-1/2 deer being taken. All the states that you think about when thinking about numbers of quality deer have later gun seasons...I don't think it's coincidence.

At any rate, to each his own, I would NEVER look negatively on anyone who decides to shoot any deer they want, I just have an affliction with big bucks, trust me it drives my wife nuts as well. She doesn't want to hear me tell her about all the little bucks I passed up so I could keep hunting...she doesn't want to hear that at all, she wants me to shoot one and come home!

[Scott K]

I would be happy with them moving the season a couple weaks later, or even shutting down buck hunting for a year. I think the MNDNR needs to start bringing doe numbers down some. When I hunt in zone 4, I see 30 does per buck, lets do a doe only hunt (permit required) shut bucks down a year, then there will be more and bigger bucks for a few years anyway! Everyone can wait a year cant they?

[sticknstring]

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She doesn't want to hear me tell her about all the little bucks I passed up so I could keep hunting...she doesn't want to hear that at all, she wants me to shoot one and come home!

Isn't that the truth!

[Bear55]

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She doesn't want to hear me tell her about all the little bucks I passed up so I could keep hunting...she doesn't want to hear that at all, she wants me to shoot one and come home!

Isn't that the truth!

Wow our wives must have been triplets!

[Stratosman]

Triplets...now that's a scary thought!!!