More bad publicity for atv!

[Scott K]

Group: Wildlife Managers Concerned About ATV Use

(AP) St. Paul A conservation group released a national survey of state wildlife and fisheries managers showing that many of them believe all-terrain vehicles destroy habitat and disrupt outings for hunters and anglers.

The Izaak Walton League of America, which released the report Thursday, also said those managers indicated that more enforcement was needed. The group called on Congress to look into the issue.

"Off-road vehicles are important to many people's lifestyles both for work and recreation, including many Izaak Walton League members who ride them responsibly everyday in states across the country," said Kevin Proescholdt, director of the national group's Wilderness and Public Lands Program. "However, our survey of agency managers clearly indicates a reckless contingent of riders is harming fish and wildlife habitat and ruining hunting and fishing experiences for many people."

The survey, conducted in July and August, contacted each of the 50 state wildlife managers and each of the 50 state fisheries managers. A total of 34 agencies, representing 27 different states, responded.

About 83 percent of the wildlife managers who responded to the survey said they have seen "resource damage to wildlife habitat" from those vehicles. About 72 percent cited "disruption of hunters during hunting season" as another impact. About 60 percent agreed or strongly agreed that the machines have a negative effect on hunting and fishing and those habitats in their states.

[Dave S]

This all depends on how you view this survey.

I look at it as the "Necessary Evil". Maybe this will prompt the DNR to step up enforcement efforts. Personally, I don't think that it's too far out of reach to establish a program to step up enforcement. Maybe give the future law enforcement personel some machines, and have them patrol known problem areas.

I know there could have been several tickets issued the day we rode Red Top.

[BobT]

I think we should push a law through that limits the number of county, state, and federal highways to the current level. Imagine the wildlife habitat that is destroyed every time a new road is installed or a road is widened. There was a county road near my home that was recently "improved". The amount of land the improvements consumed was far more than any ATV would use but ATVs are banned from using the ditch during the summer. Talk about your double standard.

Bob

edit: Further. By not allowing ATVs and other off-road vehicles to use existing fire trails and powerlines these areas are or will become overgrown. Didn't we learn anything in the BWCA over the past couple years of fires? These trails and roads provide access into areas that would otherwise be inaccessible without heavy equipment. Seems our society has its head up its whatever.

[Scott K]

I think if the state provides us with more trails, more so in the south part of the state there would be alot less people tearing up non-allowed riding areas. Seems to me if you have a huge # of atvs in south half of the state, and 2 small trail systems, there are going to be alot of people riding where they dont belong.

There are alot of atvs registared in southern MN, that have to buy the mn tabs, but there is no trails to ride on, where is the money going?

[Scott K]

I have been riding and registering atvs in MN for many years. I have 4 atvs registered right now that I pay for, As of today I have used one trail, and had 2 of my atvs on Mn trails, for 1 ride for all the years I have paid for the tabs. The dollars dont add up. Not to mention the one ride I went on in MN I spent $140 for gas to get there and back, and blew a tire out .If they are banking all this money from the atv tabs, why dont they set up some trail for us to use?

[Macgyver55]

Quote:

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"However, our survey of agency managers clearly indicates a reckless contingent of riders is harming fish and wildlife habitat and ruining hunting and fishing experiences for many people."

About 72 percent cited "disruption of hunters during hunting season" as another impact. About 60 percent agreed or strongly agreed that the machines have a negative effect on hunting and fishing and those habitats in their states.

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As a rider AND hunter I am always puzzled as to why the riders "riding experience" is considered to be any less important than the hunters hunting and fishing experience. I do both, and enjoy both and sometimes combine both so who who is to judge which is more important? When I come upon a hunter on a trail, I always stop and ask if they care if I pass as to not disturb their hunt. So far only 1 has politely said he would prefer if I didn't proceed, to which I obliged. Hopefully by turning back I have shown him that we can get along.

As it says, its a "reckless contingent" that is responsible, not everyone. Let those agencies focus their time and resources on those people not the entire riding community.

[Dave S]

A couple things to keep in mind here.

1) the non-riding public has the upper hand on this one. The more people that ride illegaly/trespass, the harder it will be too establish trails in Southern MN.

2) Before our situation will change, we need to police ourselves and show that we're worthy of a trail network. (Riding a piped Raptor behind my house at 11:30 at night isn't going to make many friends)

3) Money is also a key issue. As land prices continue to sky-rocket, it's far more difficult to obtain the land to establish a trail. The DNR isn't in the business of working out land deals with property owners. An outside entity has to go through the channels to acquire the land and obtain a fiscal agent to channel the GIA funds through. This is a long, time consuming process.

Things aren't going to improve until people pull their heads out of the sand and lose the mentality that it's their right to ride where ever they (Contact Us Please) well please. Sad to say. But it's true. Riding is a privelege, not a right.

[Macgyver55]

Quote:

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Riding is a privelege, not a right.

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As is hunting.........

[BobT]

I think both you fellas make good points and all of them can be applied. We need to show we can be courteous and considerate and at the same time our hobby is no less worthy as any other hobby.

Bob

[Dave]

Quote:

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The Izaak Walton League of America, which released the report Thursday, also said those managers indicated that more enforcement was needed. The group called on Congress to look into the issue.

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ATVAM has been asking MN's legislature for more enforcement for many years! And, it's the Izaak Walton reps that cry no.

Should we write a survey to ask how many hunters have been disturbed by foot hunters? Bet it's worse than ATVs

[Lund4ver]

Wonder how the Americans with Disabilites Act would play into the whole thing. My father for one is a Veitnam Veteran who uses a fourwheeler now after many years of walking in the woods, because he is having complications due to his military service. I have also ridden wheelers for years hunting and have the same appreciation for walking hunters as well. I ride now only to be sure nothing happens to my dad. I think that there could be some big lawsuits if atv use was banned for hunting based on past legislation, only my opinion though.

[pulsar_nx]

The problem is the whole system is messed up.

New riders think they can go anywhere (uninformed), the trail systems by in large are gravel roads (we need legal mud pits, hills, ...), the trails are too far apart in most of the state, I've never once seen law inforcement in my years of riding, trail signs are either too many and confusing or too few and left to the imagination, and my personal quibble phesants are chinese so why are we protecting them? (ditch riding).

We need less politics and more comon sense. There's no reason we can't all get along.

[ScoutII]

Using an ATV for hunting is not a God given right. It is still just another privilege, I would hope that people would start looking at privileges for what they are, a gift. I own a muzzle-loader and also own a scope that fits it. Would that mean that I have the right to hunt deer with a scope during muzzle-loader season, no. I must abide by the rules which help give other people the same level of opportunity in the sport. When it comes to truly disabled individuals who have served our country I feel we do owe them some considerations, but as for you to thinking you need the same privilage because you are related to a veteran, I would think we need to draw a line as to abusing a privilage. I have hunted with a couple of Old boys in zone 1 for over 30 years, these boys still believe in their old values. When someone is tresspassing, even if it screws-up our hunt, to not get too exited. They just enjoy the fact that even in their golden years they are still able to hunt and still have other people around to help them with their hunt. Not everything in life comes easy, the challenges are what helps us grow into stronger individuals. Enjoy your time in the WOODS with your friends and relatives, because one day the opportunity may be GONE. I have been trying to look at fishing and hunting trips as adventures, whether an evening or a week long trip. Hope you have a good adventure with your father this year.

[Lund4ver]

ScoutII - I never once said that I should be granted the same rights as my disabled father, I stated that I ride with him incase he has problems....If you would understand the situation, you wouldn't be attacking me for writing what I did. So unless you have the whole story, don't even start bashing me for wanting to spend good quality time with the man that taught me to hunt and fish. And no, I am not just responding this way because I am sitting at a chair behind the computer, I would say it right infront of you as well.

[Dave S]

If he wasn't able to use an ATV for hunting, my father would have given it up 5 years ago.

ATV's do have their place in hunting.

[Scott K]

I think if people just use their heads a bit there wouldnt be any issues. Its not the atvs that are bad, its the people. In MN I deer hunt private land, on opening morning I have had a group of 10 horseback riders walking through the woods at 9 am, not wearing orange, and I know they didnt have permission to be riding there. They were drinking and one of them seen me and pointed out to the others that I was there, and yelled over to me if I wanted a beer, and threw his empty beer bottle towards me . One other time I was hunting, it was 7 am, here is a guy I know walking his dog through the woods, again no orange, and I know he doesnt have permission to be on this land. He even knows that I would be hunting there, because I have kicked him off there before when I was hunting.

I have been in stand at late afternoon, and have had people doing a drive, that doesnt have permission to be in this land. I have kicked the same person off of this land several times, and even had the land owner call the warden to contact him and warn him.

It has nothing to do with atvs, its the peoples mindset is the problem! Its just like driving a car, should the state not provide roads because people speed, have loud mufflers, squeal the tires, drink and drive, ect.... because there are a few bad people? No they shouldnt, nor do they! We buy and pay for atv tabs to provide trails for us to ride on. I guess I feel if there were more trails for us to ride on it would keep alot of people from riding on areas they shouldnt be! Yes there still will be stupid people out there, but that will never change.

[Wiskers]

Thanks Fellas, This is going to be a hard decision. You all have good points. I know Hondas are top in my book, but I want one I can play with so I am going to start looking into that Wolverine and see what I can find out. I know Suzuki has a pretty good machine out there too and they are having some good sales now. HHUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMM

Again thanks

[jtm]

check out the new grizzly? 450. Just looked at one tonight and tempted to trade in the kodiak. The only thing I dont like about all brands right now is the weak skid plates, but what ever you buy you will be happy

[Cootz]

Hey Wiskers, I just sold Ikers wheeler back to Ed's wife and bought myself a Can Am 650. I know that's bigger then what you're looking for but I'm excited to see exactly what it'll do.

[luckey]

Last night I had my bow hunt interupted (ruined?) by two 4 wheelers. I was on my property over (two miles from a road) watching two deer feed towards me along the edge of a field. Two 4 wheelers came over the hill and the deer ran off. When they saw my truck, they turned and hightailed it out of there. Note: To get where I was they passed two gates. One was locked and the other had a "no tresspassing sign.

[Dave S]

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Last night I had my bow hunt interupted (ruined?) by two 4 wheelers. I was on my property over (two miles from a road) watching two deer feed towards me along the edge of a field. Two 4 wheelers came over the hill and the deer ran off. When they saw my truck, they turned and hightailed it out of there. Note: To get where I was they passed two gates. One was locked and the other had a "no tresspassing sign.

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Pardon the sarcasm, but WOW. 2 4-wheelers? No riders. It's amazing how technology has advanced so much to the point that ATV's can go out in the woods with no one driving them, all by themselves, and ruin the hunt for someone, which I cannot condone by any means.

It used to be that ATV's had a person on them, controlling all of the functions of the machine, steering them around gates, making them go faster or slow down, causing the machines to go onto posted land and then to run off some deer.

I don't think I have to go into all of the sayings about Rosie O'Donnell being fat or how guns don't kill people, or people can't spell because of their pencil, for anyone to know what I mean by this post.

Sadly enough, it's all too common that people will look at the common denominator in these situations and blame the machine and not the operator.

[Scott K]

I guess that is my point, if those 2 (Contact Us Please) would have had a local legal place to ride, they most likely wouldnt have been tresspassing and scaring the deer from you. By no means am I saying those people on atvs have any right to be on your land without permission. I can only see it getting worse and worse every year until the state provides riding areas. Every day more and more people buy atvs, and they dont have any where to ride them, so they find an old pasture, or gravel pit that they dont "think anyone cares" so they ride there. Anybody that does have land that normally wouldnt care, are afraid of getting sued if someone gets injured.

I dont think our image will get better, even with knowledge of laws, there are just way to many atvs, and nowhere to ride them leagally. The dnr collects all this money for atvs to be registerd in MN, but dont put the money back into trails. Why?

[Dave S]

the money is being put into trails, but only for those where the red tape has been followed through the system. It's a long and lenghty process with many factors making it harder for ATV riders than snowmobilers.

It takes a separate entity outside the DNR to secure money for trails. You show me someone with the funds available and someone with the willingness to provide the real estate, and we can establish a trail in our area of the state.

The problem is money. It doesn't seem right the DNR takes our registration fees and nothing is being established here. But until people get it through their thick flippin' melons that they need to become active in an organization, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

4-eyes,

I hope this post doesn't come off as being directed towards you. It's more for the general population around us here in Southern MN.

[Scott K]

No offense taken, although I have been the one whining about no trails down here. I would love to offer my time to help out anyway I can if it would make a difference. As for the funds, well I wouldnt be able to help out much there.

[Hammer Handle]

I don't care how much money the DNR has or gets from 4-wheelers. I don't care how many our sold. I don't care that you buy one and have no where to ride it. Shouldn't you think about that before you bought it?

Yes, many people break rules and laws. If snowmobiles break laws and go where they aren't supposed to...they lose rights. If hunters abuse a piece of land...they could lose the right to hunt there.

Most land for trails is on State Parks and private land that people give permission for people to use. Many trails are being made for bicycles over motorized vehicles. Why? For people see this bad press and experience it...and don't get as much from other forms of transportation.

More trails, more law enforcement, more this and that. You won't get it if people keep abusing what they have already over and over. You will lose more than you get. A few bad apples? No, there is a LOT of bad apples.

Take it from a guy who CLOSED the trail through his land that was for snowmobiles only for he couldn't stop or control the 4-wheelers going through and damaging the land with spinning and tearing up wet areas.

I catch illegal drivers every year...many repeat drivers and many new ones...and their excuse is always "Well, where am I supposed to drive?" My response is "How and why is this my problem and why must you drive on my land then? You want to tear up some land, buy your own!"

Or they tell me "I spent $$ on my 4-wheeler and bought it for fun. The fun comes in driving fast and mudding." Again, why is that my problem? Why must they do it on my land that I spent $$$$$$$ for? You think your tabs and lincense fees even get close to the money generated by taxes on my land and $ from hunters?

Example: A railroad track was made for use with 4-wheelers (trial basis). They went off the trail so much and torn up the ground that it was converted to a bike trail. Now, I suppose it is the State's fault for not "enforcing the rules". Well, the State can save money by putting someone there that needs little or no enforcing.

Smokers lost the right to smoke in public for it could harm other people. You are trying to get more riding areas when it will take away from many people. And yes, it will take many things away. Not going to happen and I will fight that just like I fought to close my trail that has been on my land for over 30 years.

And yes, I have an ATV. I drive it on my land. Being it is my land, I drive with care for it is my land.

Bottom line, you want rights...earn them. Start policing yourselfs and control your own actions. That is the place to start.

Sorry for the rant, but many riders just don't get it and it appears never will. They scream "Hey they got this and they got this...I want I want!" With that attitude, you won't get and people like me will fight to keep you out...and you are out-numbered.

I was all for opening the snowmobile trails to 4-wheelers (3-wheelers) many years ago...and my opinion has greatly changed since then do to many many bad apples. I know this forum is to be polite and no bashing, but everytime someone comes on with bad experiences, they get bashed. So, I am just saying what many others are wanting to say...but don't for fear they will get bashed (like I probably well).

I was one of you...and a land owner. Now, I am just that concerned land owner.