Lead Shot Ban?

[BLACKJACK]

There was a recent article in the Strib talking about banning lead shot, either a total ban in MN or a partial ban like on public lands only.

What do you think, should lead shot be banned? Yes or no?

I'll start by saying Yes lead shot should be banned through out MN. When all it takes is a couple of pellets to kill a bird, I say ban it. I watch the birds at my bird feeder and in my yard, they're constantly hopping along the ground picking up stuff (all birds need grit for digestion). The same thing is happening in CRP fields, cropland, etc. Why keep spreading toxic lead shot around there are reasonably priced, very functional alternatives like steel shot?

[Black_Bay]

If they do I hope it's incrementally. I still have a few boxes left to use.

[charliepete2]

I don't support a ban on lead. Studies showing harm to birds from lead shot in an upland setting are pretty inconclusive. I would support it in dove fields, but about 50 guys in the state actually care about dove hunting. There are much bigger fish to fry as far as things screwing up our environment...like big corporations dumping poison.

Banning lead shot is like being preoccupied with cleaning your pants up after you just cut your leg off with a chainsaw. Hunters are an easy target and we foot the bill for everything anyway.

[Gissert]

I'd have no gripe with non toxics for regular hunting.

Where it could sting a little bit is the sporting clays, trap, and skeet ranges. With the price of steel, it would drive the cost way up for these businesses. Hopefully there could be some exclusion for shooting clubs.

[CodyDawg]

I would be totally against it. I want to see the SCIENCE behind this. I am betting a Health Risk Assessment would turn up nothing in terms of additional risk to humans and critters with regards to upland hunting. If I challenged you to find a piece of lead shot, how long would it take you? There are many, many things that cause more impact to our environment and this is nothing but fear mongoring. Also, in any scientific study, it would HAVE to include the increased wounding rate due to steel use. That cannot be discounted.

[Scott M]

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Banning lead shot is like being preoccupied with cleaning your pants up after you just cut your leg off with a chainsaw.

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I agree. Don't fiddle while Rome burns.

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Where it could sting a little bit is the sporting clays, trap, and skeet ranges. With the price of steel, it would drive the cost way up for these businesses. Hopefully there could be some exclusion for shooting clubs.

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Also agree. Although I'm sure they'll probably write the law that it is only relevant when hunting.

It's only a matter of time. I will guess by hunting season, 2010 we won't be allowed lead, except in deer bullets (and maybe not even that!).

[metrojoe]

I know all the grouse I shot died from lead poisoning.

Personally, I'd hate to see lead go away completely, but it wouldn't stop me from hunting if it did.

[GatorBait]

We can only use lead while hunting upland game, personally I only use lead to shoot trap. The biggest thing with lead is that it's heavy and guys like the heavy shot compared to steel. Yet as this became an issue back when, you now see shot that is as heavy, harder hitting, and more conversational that lead itself. So I really wouldn't mind seeing it go bye bye. It's definately an issue up for debate though.

[Saw557]

I think banning lead would be the first nail in the coffin for the anti's to jump on. Hunters are taking it in the shorts all the time. You show me a study that has proof of lead poisoning in upland birds. Try and take a walk in the woods and see how lead you find laying in the open on the ground...I'll bet you don find any. Maybe just maybe you could find some in the farm country but I doubt it. Another thing to think about before you jump on the lead ban what about the smaller gauges like 28,20,and 16 there just aren't alot of non-toxic options unless you go with the $$$$ shells. How would you like to pay $6-10 a box for shells when you shoot several hundered boxes a year shooting sporting clays trap or skeet. We would ALL be better off not letting them get thier foot in the door

[Muthagoose]

I would have to see the scientific proof first..Then I would be all for removeing it from tire weights,ALL pipe systems,absolute cleaning of all junk yards,lead in any stain glass exterior windows, all lead cores in bullets, exspecialy high power bullets,lead shotgun slugs, yep dont forget those pesky muzzleloaders,how about any military live fire lets do away with that also because as what just happened on superior Im sure the cormorants are diveing 150 feet or better to get grit and are picking up 30 cal FMJ.... Be real any upland problems have been near high concetrated waste areas where its been accumulating in shalllow drinking pools.. ya know what Im waiting for when the enviromentalist get on gunner/waterfowlers to pick up the shotgun wads after each discharge.

[Roamer]

Ban all lead from our society as long as they have created an effective alternative. Which in my opinion they have its steel shot. I personally have not baught a box of lead since they came out with steel. It's not only an issue of the lead that is being distributed through out our environment while we are hunting but all the polution and waste that is generated through the manufacture of lead products as well.

[BLACKJACK]

I think the high cost of steel trap shells would go down once the demand was there, manufacturers could mass produce them. If you look at the price of two shot steel vrs four shot lead, they're very comparable. The same thing would happen with steel trap loads.

As far as the science of banning lead goes, just go do a google search on 'lead toxicity'. Most of it focuses on the affect on humans but here are a couple of bits concerning lead toxicity in birds:

In 1997 alone, the U. S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) estimated that the ban on lead shot saved 1.4 million ducks.

Lead is a toxic metal, yet tons of lead are deposited in Wisconsin’s environment annually through hunting, fishing, and recreational shooting. Lead deposited in the environment will persist indefinitely and will not break down over time into less-toxic compounds. Mortality due to lead poisoning has been documented in a wide variety of birds. Lead toxicity can have sub-lethal consequences that can compromise avian survival and reproductive success. Signs of lead intoxication in birds can vary but include behavioral changes (e.g., loss of escape response); lethargy; anorexia; paralysis of the crop, esophagus, proventriculus, gizzard, legs, or wings; vomiting; diarrhea; incoordination or lack of muscle control; convulsions; anemia; and emaciation (starvation/muscle wasting).

[bergie]

I have no problem with them banning lead, most waterfowl wounded, are wounded because hunters are taking longer shots than they should, some of the wounded might recover if they had a couple of steel pellets in them instead of lead. I agree hunters are taking a lot of flak but its possible doing some things like agreeing to ban lead to help prevent lead poisoning in game and song birds might help our cause.

[loosegoose]

Roamer, you say as long as they have created an effective alternative to lead. And you say they have with steel? If you think steel is an effective alternative to lead you better go back to science class.

I know there are non-toxic alternatives to lead, such as hevi shot, but the price needs to come down to make it affordable to most people.

[BLACKJACK]

I've shot a LOT of pheasants with two steel....

[Dotch]

I'm with codydog and others who want to see the scientific evidence that lead shot is having any measurable impact on upland game in MN and not merely going along with what other states are doing. Finding lead shot after it's been worked into most farmland or is covered by the soil being developed while ground is in CRP, CREP, etc., is next to impossible. With the tens of thousands of soil samples we have pulled over the past 25 years, 6" - 24" deep, we have found nary a pellet. Would venture to guess that autombiles have a much greater negative impact on upland game as evidenced by all the road kill but we don't see anyone wanting to ban their use on the rural roads, yet.

[Craig_S]

Lead shot works better. But lead is toxic. And for waterfowl, I'm more than happy with the steel shot loads available. I have a hunch with a little experimentation and research I'd be just as happy with steel.

But, with every action comes a re-action. I live on a lake. It used to be a pretty premier waterfowl lake, but since bluebills declined, hunting is sporadic.

Yet every spring, I collect more steel shot wads than you can imagine. In order to protect the gun barrel from the harder shot, the wad must be severely beefed up. That wad is very decay resistant. Heck, I've got a huge water bottle full of them in my living room 'cause they're kind of pretty. Lots of colors and a few sizes.

I can't believe that the wads aren't going to have some sort of environmental impact. I don't think it's going to be long before I pick up a loon, pelican, turtle, fish, or muskrat choked on one of these things.

Research, research, research. There's maybe more to the story.

A cost-benefit analysis needs to be done. Seems like the anti-hunter press is on another case, but likely without any results.

Lead is toxic to loons, yet there's as many or more loons than ever?

Lets not get carried away....

Craig

[almostthere!]

What the pro lead's argument is based simply on a single person perspective. "I only shoot one, maybe two, box of shots per year, so how can that affect the environment?"

What is needed looked at is the hunting community as a whole. "I shoot one or two boxes a year, but there are at least 100,000 other guys (in this state alone) like me who also shoot one or two boxes of lead shots per year." That adds up to at least 100,000 lbs (on the light side) of poisonous lead being poured onto our lands. Since, all birds need grits, some of the birds definitely picked up some of these shots.

I support a total ban on all lead shots. I have never used lead shots since I can afford the extra $5 for steel shots. Now-a-days, some lead shots costs more than some steel shots. Rediculous...

[Roamer]

I have shot many a duck, geese,pheasant, and some grouse (don't hunt them much). with steel. Yes then effective range of steel is slightly less than lead however the trade off of a healthier product being deposited into our environment is well workth that marginal loss of effective range. Most hunter in my opinion (and this is only my opinion) who complain about that loss would be better off developing their hunting skills a little better. Thus creating a little bit better decoy spread, or doing a bit more scouting to get on the spot on the spot where the birds want to be this in effect will bring those birds in closer therefore negating that loss of effective range. The same mentality can be applied to pheasants. Work on keeping your noise down, work on your dog to get them to hunt closer, not take off like a jet plane when on the trail this will allow you to stay closer to the bird and therefore get a closer flush again negating the need for those outer edge of the limit shots.

[Muthagoose]

I know I posted what looked to be a pro lead post,Im not against switching, its whats next to fall..

Seeing the coast gaurd get stopped for live fire and part of the complaint was birds ingesting a 30 cal bullet from depths over 150 feet, not real likely...

I have shot the same 1 1/8th steel load for years,use it on pheasants with no complaint.. I actually favor the SAM 1 wad with 39 grains of bluedot it produces a tight pattern with the right choke.

So the switch continues what do you think the next lead projectile to be switched will be?

How long till a Hunter is fined for littering and anyone who shoots a shotgun is,so is a muzzleloader,so is a bullet that miss's its target...When?

[paintbrush]

I totally agree with CodyDawg on this. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a so called problem that no one can prove exists! What's next,maybe ban any loads of any type shot over 1 oz. so there won't be so many pellets that fall to the ground.

[BLACKJACK]

Was just over to the Star Tribunes outdoor section reading some of the letters concerning lead shot, interesting reading if you have the time, one letter from a veterinarian talking about lead poisoning in animals and others talking about the tons of lead sprayed out at gun clubs.

People keep saying, give me proof that there’s a problem. First off, go do a Google search on 'lead toxicity'. Lead if very toxic, even in small quantities.

Secondly, they proved years ago that even a few lead pellets will kill a duck; it will also kill any other bird that ingests it. If you spend any amount of time watching tame birds or wild birds at a feeder or from your deer stand, you'll see that ground feeding birds are constantly picking up seeds, little bits of this or that, all birds need grit. Next time you shoot a pheasant, look in its crop. Besides corn and soybeans, you'll find little bits of rock and other unidentifiable stuff. My point is that eventually some bird is going to ingest some of these lead pellets that are sprayed around.

Thirdly, people complain about the cost of non-lead shells. For most people, going thru two boxes of shells in a year is a good year, but let’s say you go thru 10 boxes. If each one costs an extra $3, that’s thirty more dollars. Is that really that much considering you're driving a $20,000 vehicle and spending $100's on guns, clothes, boots, and lodging??? And the cost of non-lead shells will go down once the demand goes higher.

[catman71]

This is not and should not be a political issue. ANY person who calls themselves a conservationist should be willing to spend a little more on non-toxic bullets or shot if they have looked into the issue even a little.

At the very least you need to ask yourself, why am I shooting things I want to eat with a toxic poison and then serving it to my friends, family and children?

There is NO safe level of lead exposure to children.

I am not for any more government regulation of shooting, hunting or ammunition, just because the mess it up at every turn, so it really should fall on us. I don't understand the resistance to it, what comes first for you? Your gamebag? Your wallet? or the natural resources you all profess to love?

[almostthere!]

I will go on the political side...

Lead is such a poisonous substance that the government took it out of paint. So, to protect the uniformed or misguided from harming themselves and their loved ones, the government should band all lead shots and bullets. There are plenty of better substitutes for lead shots and bullets.

But, for those who opposes government intervention, just think of your loved ones' healths (if not your own). Especially, for the guys who loves to shoot pheasents with #6 lead shots. This reminds me of a time when a fellow hunter complains why I was undershooting him on some pheasents. I picked up one of his shells and it was #6 lead. My reply to the guy was, "I am shooting BBB Steel, therefore I have to wait until the bird gets a little farther downrange. But, you keep your birds and I will keep mine." This was on a game farm.

[catman71]

By "not being political" I meant to put at ease the regular gun enthusiasts that are scared of ANY more misguided and stupid legislation around guns or shooting sports.

As sportsmen we can police ourselves or hope a body like the DNR could implement rules about taking game on public land with lead substitutes. I do not think we need some federal lead ban, they would mess it up anyways and tie it to a congressional pay increase and socalized medicine.

Lead fishing tackle is another real issue. EVERYONE has broken off, but I leave some Green Gremlin Tin in the lake instead of little lead pellets.

Just for the record I am a JackBooted Conservative and really don't believe the government needs to regulate me any more than they do. But for an extra few dollars I totally skip the lead shot, shoot BARNES-X bullets and can totally put my mind at ease.

My sister, home for the holidays, and has a PhD in Marine Science and works in the commerce committee of the US Senate, sent me a Pdf file of an X-ray of a deer shot with a regular copper jacketed lead tip bullet, and let me tell you, you do NOT want to feed that to your children.

I think this issue would be better solved by sportsmen doing what is best other than the feds passing bayonet bans.