DIDN'T EVEN SEE A DEER(4 DAYS)

[chucker34]

"It's been a good discussion but I really have to get some work done today!! I hope nobody is rialed up...my opinions are just that, opinions and no hard facts...you guys are all invited to my garage for the verbal fixing of the MN deer problems through a few golden sodas. "

Agreed. Good discussion. And never want it to get ugly. People can be passionate about their beliefs and even borderline argumentative without it having to get nasty. This is a good thread. Enjoyed everyone's comments, except for harvey lee's. LOL. JK. Had to work some humor in there.

[chris63]

Hey its not over till the fat doe sings!c63

[Black_Bay]

La la la la

Come on, you know someone was going to do it.

[bigbucks]

I'm sure I could find it, if I took the time, but I don't have it right now. I would like to see it layed out in some kind of chart or columns or whatever the number of firearm hunters & # of square miles for each of the states in the five state area. I'm interested in the other weapons numbers as well, but think that firearms is what will tell the story.

I would say some other things to consider one way or the other is that IA & the Dakotas for the most part have crops & therefore food in almost 100% of the state, not sure about cover. The North half of MN & most of WI have tons of cover, not sure about northern WI, but northern MN doesn't have a lot of food. The transition portion of MN, essentially the middle, where I do 95% of my hunting has a lot of both & a lot of hunters, which means a lot of deer & a lot of pressure, but the population with the terrain can handle that.

I would guess one draw back to the DNR to splitting the state to two different seasons as some one else suggested is what to do with the All-Season & Multi-Zone hunters. I'm sure plenty of them would take advantage & hunt North first & then South, which could essentially put more pressure in the South. It would be outside the rut, but then there'd be more guys competing for the same group of deer. Also the later season would mess with the muzzle loaders too.

It's not a simple fix to a problem, at least the trophy part. Plus it really isn't a problem for the DNR. It's a problem for realistically less then 20% of the deer hunting population I'd guess, those who hunt enough to be willing to wait for big ones & want every one else to do the same.

[james_walleye]

Just a couple of quick notes after reading all of this. First there is no doubt that IA is heads over heels better than MN for big bucks, but lets be real its not the norm for people anywhere too let 160" bucks go because they are too small, IA or anywhere else. Some people may just because they know a 190" buck is on their property and its all or nothing for them. But that happens in MN too, people have a rediculous monster on their property and pass up 150" bucks hoping too get the one monster. But 99.9% of hunters in IA or anywhere else arent letting go a 150-160" buck because its too small. 130"ers yes, but not a buck thats almost boone and crockett. No part of QDM calls for letting an almost booner walk by.

As far as deer hunters south of I94 chiming in, you will not find a hunter here in SE MN complaining about deer numbers. Most areas are over run in fact. I think its getting better with people being allowed too take some does with the all season license during the first season, but the area i hunt, there is no shortage.

Deer numbers in the north? Cant speak personally about it. But i do know 4 groups of hunters that hunt around Grand Rapids, Mille Lacs, and a group by Fergus Falls that normally fill all their tags the first weeeked. In all 4 cases no one shot a single deer, and for the most part no one saw a deer the first weekend. Now in these cases the deer herd wasnt decimated over this last hunting off season. But when you get warm weather coupled with a full moon your going too have a tough time, thats the way it is. The area i hunt is loaded with deer, but other than that first 45 minutes of shooting light both days, i could have been at home watching football and seen no more deer than i did in the woods.

MN having more big deer? I think for the most part the people crying this, including myself, are in SE MN. I think the frustration here is that we see the deer being shot in IA and we see that our habitat and winters are pretty much identical. Its pretty safe too assume that SE MN in particualar could be every bit as good as NE IA for big bucks if a few things were changed, namely season dates and season structures.

Oh and the main reason for IA gun season timing helping for big bucks isnt genetically based. It helps but isnt the main reason. The main reason the timing helps in big bucks is that simply rut crazed bucks are more easily shot. If these rut crazy 1 1/2 year old bucks arent hunted during the rut, but after the rut they arent as vulnerable. If they arent rut crazed there instincts are better intact and more of them survive the season. Now as a 2 1/2 year they are much smarter and again not being hunted during the rut these smarter bucks have a better chance of getting too 3 1/2, and so on and so on. And the result is more mature bucks running around. Genetics does a buck no good if hes shot at age 1 1/2.

And someone in another post mentioned you cant compare IA and MN because Iowa has half the number of hunters as MN does. Well......Iowa is half the size of MN too......so isnt the pressure relatively the same??

[BLACKJACK]

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It's not a simple fix to a problem, at least the trophy part. Plus it really isn't a problem for the DNR. It's a problem for realistically less then 20% of the deer hunting population I'd guess, those who hunt enough to be willing to wait for big ones & want every one else to do the same.

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The problem I have is that these 'trophy' hunters want it legislated for more big bucks, at the expense of the other 80% that think that any deer is a trophy. If you're a big rack hunter, go out and prove it, the big deer are out there, just look at the pictures in the Outdoor News or any bait shop, don't expect the DNR to change the rules to make it easier for you, at the expense of the other 80% of the deer hunters. Go prove that you're a 'trophy' hunter and quit whining about it.

[Black_Bay]

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And someone in another post mentioned you cant compare IA and MN because Iowa has half the number of hunters as MN does. Well......Iowa is half the size of MN too......so isnt the pressure relatively the same??

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If you look at just the overall number of hunters per square mile then maybe you could compare the two states. The difference is the amount of hunters on private land compared to public land. Minnesota has huge tracts of forested public land. Comparisons can only be drawn between Iowa to the protion of Minnesota south of the Twin Cites but not the rest state. People have to realize that Minnesota is very unique in that it has 3 biomes. Check out the MN DNR site http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/biomes/comparison.html There are more variables to wildlife management than most people think and it varies from one part of the state to another. What I'm trying to say is that deer management in Minnesota isn't as simple as some people think. You just can't change the season or have a lottery and big bucks will be border to border. I haven't even got into the discussion of human dimensions.

[summit090706]

Blackjack you took the words out of my mouth. I think instead of the state changing to a QDM, the people that want more big bucks need to purchase some land and start doing it, instead of forcing everyone... Thanks great thread

[lawdog]

Interesting about the three biomes and how differnet the needs are Black_Bay. My question then though is why do we have the tags set up like we do where you can whack just as many deer here as up where they are overpopulated and in a different biome so apparently needing different management.

Also, to you guys who say QDM would be forcing something on to people who don't care about big bucks, that's a crock. First of all, all of us have ever changing regulations for deer hunting forced on us every year. Our entire system is based upon governed regulations or you could hunt in May... This "nobody is going to tell me how to hunt" argument is complete bunk!

Secondly, its not just about big bucks. Its about a better healthy deer herd and involves shooting does to keep the population balanced and letting bucks grow up so the dominant (better) bucks can do the breeding and continue to upgrade the species. How is having a good deer herd with more mature bucks hurting hunters? Answer, its not!!!

[BLACKJACK]

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How is having a good deer herd with more mature bucks hurting hunters?

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The dirty little secret about QDM is that it entails shooting lots more does 'to bring the herd into balance', shooting enough does to where some years some hunters would not be allowed to shoot a deer. Thats where it hurts the average hunter whos just happy to see and shoot a deer - and to them its a trophy.

My point is to the guys that insist that a trophy deer is only one with big antlers, go hunt one down. They're out there, as proved by the pictures of BIG dead deer you see in every bait shop and outdoor publication. If you're a good hunter, you'll get one. Why do you need the DNR to set special regs in order to get your big antlered trophy? Why should +80% of the hunters have their deer hunts retricted because of a vocal minority?

[Mark Christianson]

Blackjack

I need all the help I can get.

Bring on the regs. Nobody can shoot a buck except me. I like that reg.

I havent seen a deer since Nov 4th, much less a buck...

Hi, my name is Mark, and I have a problem. LOL

[lawdog]

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The dirty little secret about QDM is that it entails shooting lots more does 'to bring the herd into balance'

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Its no secret you need to shoot does. Its also not at all inconsistent with our current regs so again, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

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My point is to the guys that insist that a trophy deer is only one with big antlers, go hunt one down. They're out there, as proved by the pictures of BIG dead deer you see in every bait shop and outdoor publication. If you're a good hunter, you'll get one. Why do you need the DNR to set special regs in order to get your big antlered trophy? Why should +80% of the hunters have their deer hunts retricted because of a vocal minority?

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Again, you distort the facts and argue against something that isn't even reality. No true QDM guy says only a big rack is a good deer. You said yourself QDM requires you to take does and last I checked they don't have racks at all, let alone big ones. Also, if you are so worried about the guy who views "any deer as a trophy", then he shouldn't care about shooting a doe instead of a spike buck should he? After all she's just as much a trophy. Heck its a better harvest anyway, it tastes better, and its probably tougher to get too. Also nobody says everybody gets a trophy with QDM, that's a lot of talk too. And making more adult bucks around doesn't make them that much easier to shoot. Real big deer will still always be smart and tough to kill. The stupid bucks will always be easier to kill, we just won't take out the good ones when they are only dumb because they haven't learned yet... Seriously if you have a point restriction, you are really talking one, MAYBE two years of inconvenience to the brown its down guys while these littler bucks grow up. Then they can shoot the stupid and inferior two years old and be giddy about them instead the baby spikes...

Lastly, I have to address this idea that if its a majority then we can't change things. We shouldn't make scientific decisions for what's best for the deer based upon a popularity contest. Leadership means making tough choices which sometimes aren't even that popular. I mean I would guess at some point the majority of hunters for ducks used live decoys as it was all the rage before they were banned. Under your logic the DNR couldn't have stopped them to help those "verbal minority" who were wanting ducks into the future. Thankfully the DNR wasn't foolish enough to buy that lame attempt at an argument then! Hopefully they never are!!! If its what's best for our deer, DO IT.

[Black_Bay]

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Interesting about the three biomes and how differnet the needs are Black_Bay. My question then though is why do we have the tags set up like we do where you can whack just as many deer here as up where they are overpopulated and in a different biome so apparently needing different management.

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Some of it is money. Some is that it would make the regulations a lot more complicated. Some is that things move slowly in state government. The biggest thing is that what the DNR is doing now works well enough to make most people happy.

[Black_Bay]

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Lastly, I have to address this idea that if its a majority then we can't change things. We shouldn't make scientific decisions for what's best for the deer based upon a popularity contest. Leadership means making tough choices which sometimes aren't even that popular. I mean I would guess at some point the majority of hunters for ducks used live decoys as it was all the rage before they were banned. Under your logic the DNR couldn't have stopped them to help those "verbal minority" who were wanting ducks into the future. Thankfully the DNR wasn't foolish enough to buy that lame attempt at an argument then! Hopefully they never are!!! If its what's best for our deer, DO IT.

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That is the BIG catch Lawdog. The DNR doesn't always get to make scientific decisions. They get handcuffed by the legislature quite often. It happens with wildlife management and fisheries management. It's ALL POLITICS and who shouts the loudest. It has always been in essence a popularity contest. The DNR is all about making the most people happy. Although they won't go as far as putting the resourses in danger to make Joe Outdoorsman happy, contrary to popular belief.

[BLACKJACK]

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Its no secret you need to shoot does.

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Maybe some parts of the metro area are over populated with deer, but not the majority of the state. I don't know about you but I've never seen too many deer while I've been out deer hunting.

[BLACKJACK]

BLB, you're a hopeless case, there aren't enough regs in the world to help you!!!

[BLACKJACK]

lawdog, you never answered my question, why do you need special regs to harvest a big deer? All you did was go off on a rant...

As far as the DNR setting regs according to biology, they've done a fine job just using doe permits. Most veteran deer hunters would say that deer hunting is as good as they've ever seen it. Now if they have to goto 'earn a buck' they're still using biology - kill a fawn producing doe before the desired buck - to bring the population into line. But when they start looking at an antler point RESTRICTION, theres no biology involved, its the vocal minority, the 'only trophy is a big buck crowd' that is persuading the DNR.

Again, answer my question, why do you need special regs to kill a big buck when I see pictures of harvested big bucks all over??

[Shad rap]

Black Jack. QDM or even DM. You live in willmar do you hunt around willmar? Unless I'm not doing somthing right I dont see many deer around the willmar area.

When was the last time you see herds of deer out in the fields in the winter around willmar? any deer in willmar is a trophy. unless you are lucky enough to have your own land to hunt and you can manage the deer. The 7 years That I lived in willmar the only deer herds I have see where in the state parks. I think it is to the point where the DNR should have drawning for deer tags, not letting every one hunt. You hear every year about the number of hunters that didnt see deer during the gun season. I bow hunt and hunted good land but I was still luck if I seen 15 deer for the bow season and to get a few in bow range was a bonus. Driving around the last hour before it gets dark you dont see that main deer out in the field. I guess I'm doing my part of QDM and DM in MN by not hunting deer in MN any more. I would rather spend a few weekend a year in ND and see 20 to a 100 deer a night. Where you dont have to worry about shoot the first deer you see.

[Cooter]

In a nut shell I understand some criticism towards deer management but realize you can never make everyone happy. Also, if you aren't seeing deer, its time to change hunting areas or tactics cuz the harvest numbers don't lie(I sure hope). Later.

[james_walleye]

Its kind of funny, people saying if you want a big deer just go find some good land and buy it and shoot one. Go do some legwork in essence you are saying. Saying there are no deer in your area. Well if i should go buy some land where so i can find a big buck than you can go buy some land somewhere else where there are more deer too instead of changing the regulations so it goes your way. I'm sorry but 99% of hunters in this state would love too shoot a big buck so if you could implement a reg that would push the odds in favor of more people shooting big bucks than what is the problem. Not all of these people will trophy hunt exclusely and will not be disappointed if they dont get a big one but if they did get one they would be on cloud 9. If pushing the season back 2 weeks will help accomplish this, than what is the problem? You can shoot your does 2 weeks later also cant you??! Having more big bucks in this state would be a bi-product of better management. You guys that have no deer in your area are looking out for what you think your area needs and im looking out for what my area needs also and thats more does being taken. Too tell you the truth the all-season license that has been available the last couple years where you can shoot does the first season in zone 3 IS making a difference. Does are being harvested at a better rate and the bi-product is that people dont have a reason too shoot a small buck because they can now put venison in the freezer with one of their other tags. So if your someone who wants too get rid of the all season license because you think this is the reason the deer herd in your area is down, i will go the opposite way and say this needs too stay because its helping the herd in SE MN. A more balanced doe/buck ratio and a better age structure in the bucks.

[lawdog]

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lawdog, you never answered my question, why do you need special regs to harvest a big deer?

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The reason I didn't answer the question is it isn't even the point and you can't see that so you just keep asking a question that isn't relevant. You don't need regs to kill a big buck, I've killed big bucks, lots of people have killed big bucks, clearly that's not the issue, but its all you want to pretend it is, so there's no sense to answering your unrelated red-herring questions.

[chris63]

Blackjack,I wouldnt be to concerned about a rant,but if they start to rave "watch out!" I really just wanted to let you guys know about what we were/were not seeing in the woods I never intended to start a big "thing".I have next week off and will be Bow hunting all week so maybe I will have better news next weekend.Everyone be safe and have a good Chrismas!hohohoc63

[BLACKJACK]

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lawdog, you never answered my question, why do you need special regs to harvest a big deer?

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The reason I didn't answer the question is it isn't even the point and you can't see that so you just keep asking a question that isn't relevant. You don't need regs to kill a big buck, I've killed big bucks, lots of people have killed big bucks, clearly that's not the issue, but its all you want to pretend it is, so there's no sense to answering your unrelated red-herring questions.

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Probably because you don't have an answer. There are big bucks out there, go out and hunt one down instead of looking for special regs to help you.

If you ask the question to deer hunters 'Would you like to shoot bigger bucks?' of course 99% of them will say yes.

If you ask the correct question 'Would you like to shoot bigger bucks, even if it means more does will get shot and some years you may not be able to shoot a deer?' then the answer would be that less than 50% would approve.

But the vocal minority is going to continue to push for special regs to help create bigger bucks.

My point is, if you're a big rack trophy hunter, why do you need special regs, when we see big buck pictures all the time? Go out and prove how great a trophy hunter you are without imposing on the rest of us that like the deer season just like it is!!

[Shoot2Kill]

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lawdog, you never answered my question, why do you need special regs to harvest a big deer?

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The reason I didn't answer the question is it isn't even the point and you can't see that so you just keep asking a question that isn't relevant. You don't need regs to kill a big buck, I've killed big bucks, lots of people have killed big bucks, clearly that's not the issue, but its all you want to pretend it is, so there's no sense to answering your unrelated red-herring questions.

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Probably because you don't have an answer. There are big bucks out there, go out and hunt one down instead of looking for special regs to help you.

If you ask the question to deer hunters 'Would you like to shoot bigger bucks?' of course 99% of them will say yes.

If you ask the correct question 'Would you like to shoot bigger bucks, even if it means more does will get shot and some years you may not be able to shoot a deer?' then the answer would be that less than 50% would approve.

But the vocal minority is going to continue to push for special regs to help create bigger bucks.

My point is, if you're a big rack trophy hunter, why do you need special regs, when we see big buck pictures all the time? Go out and prove how great a trophy hunter you are without imposing on the rest of us that like the deer season just like it is!!

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Well, guess I'm glad I've been gone for this debate. I thought it had pretty much died, but guess it came back to life.

I really don't want to keep this up but what the hell. Some of the comments on here about big bucks are very typical from what I've heard from MN deer hunters...mainly MN gun hunters. True...most hunters are just happy to get a deer...but I can guarantee you that even those 1 time a year hunters would feel different about it if just ONE time they were in the presence of a real trophy buck...and realized what they've shot their whole life doesn't amount to squat in comparison to a big mature buck. That's all it takes...one encounter, you're outlook will change. You won't want to shoot babies anymore. To each his own...I'm done with this thread cause I don't think it will ever be won here in MN, shoot away.

[Shoot2Kill]

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Its no secret you need to shoot does.

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Maybe some parts of the metro area are over populated with deer, but not the majority of the state. I don't know about you but I've never seen too many deer while I've been out deer hunting.

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I should have posted this before my last post, but now I know why you feel the way you do Blackjack...all it takes is a few hours in a field full of deer and a few big bucks pushig each other around during the rut and you'd have a different outlook.