Wetlands

[The Grebe]

Isn't there a law about draining wetlands, like in your not supposed to do it? I don't believe that farmers are supposed to do it? Hasn't there been a wetlands protection act passed? Seems to me there has been? Thought I read something about it?

I think I posted this in the wrong place? I believe it should be in "Outdoor Discussions" How do I get it moved to that spot?

I travel #81 just about everyday and they are constructing more roadways off #81 just west of Osseo...I think it may be an extention of #610?

Anyways, there is a pond just south of #81 that has had water in it for as long as I can remember, even during the hottest and driest of times...now that they have reconfigured the creek to accomodate the roadway, the pond is drying up, there is barely any water in it at all?

This pond used to be home to all kinds of wild life, now everything is high and dry?

Unless this is a temperary thing and at some point after contruction, steps will be taken to restrict the outflow of water, haven't they broken the law by draining a wetland?

You know what? Rather then just yap, I think I will give the DNR a call and see what they have to say about it? Looks like dump to me and it has displaced alot of wildlife!

[Ufatz]

Grebe: You are correct-there are numerous regulations and state and federal policies regarding wetlands, especially the draining of wetlands. Theoretically one must comply with these restrictions BEFORE draining or in any other way altering a wetland area. Many in the agricultural and industrial world are infamous for blowing off those regs and then paying the fine IF they are discovered to be in violation. I assume the proper permits etc, have been obtained for the project you are watching. It may well be that another bigger and better pothole will be enhanced in exchange for draining the one you are concerned about. That is called mitigation....a sorta environmental tit-for-tat or quid pro quo. And then again it just could be that your pond is the latest victim of progress. You are likely to see more of it in the near future, now that the big boys have convinced the world that we must produce more ethanol. Soon we will be a land of golden corn fields from sea to shining sea.

Call DNR. Learn what you can. Stay vigilant.

[nofishfisherman]

I believe you can obtain permission to drain wetlands for construction purposes but you need to replace the wetland 2 acres for every 1 drained. So if they drained 10 acres then need to create 20 acres.

Not 100% sure about this but I remember hearing about this in the Lakeville area, the entire city is built on wetlands so they have had to create a pond in just about every neighborhood.

[BobT]

Such is the way of progress. We all want to expand our communities but we are reluctant to accept the responsibilities that go along with that.

I think historically most of our larger shopping centers have been built on what once were wetlands. This is because these were not desireable real estate so 1)it was available and 2)it was less costly. The voting power of a large metro area can be quite high. Here in MN 2/3-3/4 of our total state's population resides in the Mpls/St. Paul metro area and likewise legistative voting power goes with it.

I'm not complaining, just stating the obvious. If a city sees opportunity for growth, there isn't too much that stands in the way. If an individual has opportunity for growth, such as a farmer, it can be a little more difficult. There is power in numbers. That's democracy in action.

I've seen it locally in Osakis and raised issue but a city has more power than an individual. The laws do keep conservation and environmental impact at the forefront and therein they serve a perpose.

Bob

[eyepatrol]

This is a very complex question and issue where there are many, many conditions and stipulations that are involved with it (wetlands). I contacted one of our water resource specialists about this and have some general comments/responses for you, but keep in mind this is very general and there is a lot of other rules/regulations and considerations that go into wetlands.

First of all, draining wetlands on farmland that are not already drained can sometimes be done, but usually not. If a farmer wants to drain a non-drained wetland to plant more crops to have more financial gain from the land, then almost always the farmer will be denied permission to do so. Draining wetlands on farm land for financial gain is almost always prohibited and there has to be significant reason that can justify draining a wetland that isn't already drained. Draining wetlands on farmland typically goes through the NRCS and some sort of farm program.

There are situations where "dominimous" filling is allowed, up to 2000 square feet. However the 2000 square feet is a cummulative number. Example - if there are 2 wetlands, you can fill a total of 2000 square feet combined, not 2000 square feet in each wetland. However, if a wetland is 3000 square feet in size, they will not likely be able to fill 2000 square feet (or 2/3 of it). In that situation, there would be a percentage allowable determined.

On highway projects, if the project is meant to bring the road up to state standards for safety and capacity reasons, there is no dominimous filling allowed. However, if a state-funded roadway being improved for safety and capacity reasons impacts wetlands, wetland credits can be purchased either from the state (the state has a "bank" of credits) or from someone who has created wetlands and has credits available to purchase. On new roads and highways, the dominimous filling does not apply and mitigation is required. The option to purchase wetlands credits in this situation also applies. The amount of mitigation depends on the type of wetland that exists. Don't take my word for it (and I didn't ask our specialist), but I believe there are 4 types of wetlands; Type I - Type IV (I may be mistaken though). The amount of mitigation can vary for each type….some may require a 1:1 replacement (one acre filled requires creating 1 acre of new), or it may be a 3:1 replacement (one acre filled, 3 acres of new).

As you can see, there are a number of factors that are involved when impacting wetlands. I've only touched on a couple of them. Obviously you are concerned about it, and rightly so. You can certainly contact the DNR, but you may also want to contact the NRCS office and the agency doing the project (county, state, township….whomever is heading up the project).

I hope this helps somewhat. I tried to write notes as fast as our specialist was talking, but I may have missed something or accidentally written something down incorrectly.

Good luck!

[porschevy]

The other thing to consider about old farms and shopping centers that once were wetlands is that when all of that was built they were built on swamps (same as a wetland, but not as nice sounding). Most of this was done prior to conservancy issues.

[The Grebe]

When I posted this, I may have posted it in the wrong spot? Maybe Outdoor Discussions would have been more appropriate?

At any rate, you guys are right! I just got off the phone with the fella from the DNR, a hydrologist that gave me a whole passel of names, numbers, web sites, etc. He also stated what several of you guys stated about mitigation, 2:1 ratios, all kinds of stuff.

I would have to believe that a project as big as that freeway project, would have done all the homework and made sure everything was legal...I mean, it's right out there, people are gonna talk!

Just the same, I got the number to the district water shed hydrologist and I left him a message....he probably has bigger fish to fry then talking to me, but, we'll see if he gets back to me and what he says?

I'm not planning to turn this into a dog fight, I just want to know something about that pond...If I learn anything that doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to explain, I'll pass it on.

[eyepatrol]

More than likely they have done their homework on that project, but it would still be interesting to see what exactly they are going to do.

[jbell1981]

I also noticed that they did this to a couple days ago. I think its a shame and hopefully it is just temporary. I always enjoyed watching all the duck and geese that used this pond while I was stuck in traffic on my way home.

[The Grebe]

Basscatcher...your post further up the page is pretty much what the fella at the DNR told me, with a few twists here and there....with all the twists and turns and rules for various situations, we are getting into what I deem the Rhodes Scholar area....kinda like the 12 pages of insurance infor they send you on your auto policy!

Are we really suppose to be able to understand and retain this knowledge, being able to evoke pertinent information and bring it forth, if and when a situation arises? If the answer is yes, then I guess that I must have gotten dropped on my head as a baby, cause alot of this stuff leaves me way behind, demanding more study and retention then what I have to give....now if it was my land, it would probably be a different story!

I did get a call from the hydrologist and he is going to call later, I was out and he had a meeting he had to go to. I will ask him about this specific project and try to get something in laymens terms that I can understand and pass along.

[eyepatrol]

Wetlands and the rules, regs, types, conditions and all that goes with them is a lot of information to try and learn and retain. I myself am in the business of designing streets, roads, developments, utilities, etc. The projects I work on for clients run into or along wetlands from time to time, and I'm not afraid to say that it is at times confusing and at times, overwelming. But, that's why we have people in our company who specialize in those things. We, as people in general, just can't be expected to know everything about everything. I try to learn as much as I can for my job, but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty (such as wetlands or other specialites), I let the specialists take over....that's their job anyway.

The other thing our specialist told me, is that rules/regs can change from year to year.

[fishinchicks]

I would have to take offence in what you are saying about the farming community. If we violate a wetlands rule, we lose all of our farm program payments, CRP payments, etc. There are some that will drain a questionable area, but all tiling has to be permitted. Believe me, the neighbors will call the NRCS if they think you may be in violation. It isn't worth the risk.

There has been a lot of discussion about this in Stevens County. Using aerial maps, the government has been denying tiling permits based on "blue dots" that appear on the map. Usually these are wetlands, but in more than one case, it is a rock pile. They have had NRCS guys from Washinton DC out looking at the situation.

We don't plant corn road to road because of the Ethanol plants. We have the Ethanol plants because we needed to sell our corn.

Don't make too many assumptions, or lump a group together.

If you enjoyed a meal today, thank a farmer!

[MIKE IN lINO III]

I'm no expert but this is what I found out when I wanted to put a driveway in up at the lake. I have class 3 wetland between the road and my camping spot. I order for me to put in a driveway I would need to stake out the planned driveway and then have the water, soil & conservation office come out and determine how much wetland I was going to ruin. That would determine how much wetland I need to replace, either on my property, or like Basscatcher says, I could by credits from someone who has them banked. If I remember corrlectly it would be a 1.5 to 1 ratio. 1.5 to replace 1. In my woods that is classified as a class 5 wetland and that it a 2 to 1 ratio.

I was told by the water, soil & conservation guy I taked to, a wetland is anything that holds water for a 2 week period during the growing season. What really chapps me is in my field that I want to put the driveway is mostly dry, meaning there isn't ANY standing water, cattails and the such where it should be classified as a wetland. He told me that I could farm it if I wanted to but when it comes to putting in a driveway I have to jump throuh the hoops. Doesn't seem to make sense.

[BobT]

I hope I don't get us into too deep a debate but I'm not sure I understand that last statement.

The ethanol plants were created to satisfy a need to sell corn? What you're suggesting is that the farm industry had an abundant surplus of corn and in order to market it the industry came up with its own market? They didn't do a very good job since the prices are now at an all-time low especially relative to the cosumer price index.

I was asking some of my neighboring corn farmers why it is that since the introduction of and propogation of ethanol plants and the added demand they must put on the corn supply, have the corn prices actually decreased? Supply and demand should dictate that the price for corn should increase because of the sudden increase in demand created by the ethanol producers. Their answer was that the production of corn increased to meet that demand. Farmers have stepped up populations and increased fertilizing to increase acre output and meet demand.

This is typical of farming practices going back a hundred years. We cut our own throat by our competetive nature and then later on we complain about the poor prices.

Go figure.

Bob

[The Grebe]

BC...well put! Since I'am just curious and don't really plan on going on the offensive, I guess that the questions posed and answered here are information enough for my curiosity.

More then likely the situation is duely noted and dealt with by those whose job it is to monitor things like this....I sure hope so!

Still, I sure miss the little pieces of rural areas and nature that are close to the cities and suburbia, those areas that fall to development...after a time, you don't even remember they were there?

I'm hoping that once the project is complete, they will rehydrate that little pond? We'll see?

[fishinchicks]

Down in Marshall, a group of farmers started an ethanol plant. They were creating a niche market for their crop, thereby getting paid a better price. With the increased demand for ethanol, more plants have come into existance. The Marshall plant also makes corn syrup, not all ethanol plants do both. It was an opportunity for these guys to sell their corn at a premium. The current corn price is about the same as it was when I was born in the '60's. The price we get is determined by the Chicago Board of Trade, and that can jump around just on rumors of a good crop, or that there might be a problem in Illinois. Each elevator sets a basis, which they can either widen or narrow when they think the market is going to be volatile. We have to watch the markets daily when we have crop to sell, to try and land on the best price. Not easy! Supply and demand doesn't always apply to the farmer's end.

As far as farmer's stepping up production, some do, some don't. It mostly depends on what your crop rotation is, and which crop you made the most money on. There is a national crop survey that has all the statistics, which is pretty interesting to me, but probably reallllly boring to the rest of you.

We started switching over to organic production in 1998 because of the demand for organic crops, and the better pay. It is pretty cool to have organic buyers call us up to see what we have, instead of just taking what we can get from the elevator. Our prices are still based on the CBT, but we get so many dollars per bushel over that price. It takes a lot of work to farm this way, and the paper work can be a nightmare, but it is worth it to us.

[eyepatrol]

I hear ya! I've worked with communities on projects where, when you talk to the locals, they tell you about how they use to duck hunt as a kid where their house is sitting, right in the middle of town.

I also find it interesting to see in the late winter/early spring when melt-off and rain causes areas to flood. Each one of those flooded areas used to be wetlands inhabited by ducks, geese, song birds and other animals. Of course, a month goes by and those areas are dry. It was a different time and different line of thinking back when these areas were drained and it's too bad there wasn't the foresight to understand the impacts would have. And then look at how many roads and highways go right through wetlands, some of which were likely prestine wetlands back in the day. Sure they still hold birds and such, but they don't serve the functional quality they used to.

We can't always change the past, but we can look to the future and try to preserve or maintain what we have left. And maybe, when opportunities arise, improve the future (probably easier said than done though).

[Eric Wettschreck]

Hopefully the people in charge of this project have taken the steps necessary to keep our wetlands.

I grew up in Linwood and went to school in Forest Lake. It absolutely amazes me what I see there now. Hard to believe I used to shoot ducks where Famous Daves rib joint is sitting.

[Goldenboy]

Wetlands in Minnesota are regulated at various levels depending upon their location and type. Wetlands may be subject to local city, county, watershed ordinances; State Board of Water and Soil Resources Wetland Conservation Act Rules (MN Chapter 8420); MN Department of Natural Resources Public Waters; Federal United States Army Corps of Engineers or United States Department of Agriculture rules and regulations.

Simply stated if wetlands cannot be avoided, potential wetland impacts (drain, fill, excavate) must be identified and mitigation strategies discussed and approved prior to work commencing. High profile public transportation projects do have fairly stringent procedures and rules to follow in regards to wetlands.

There is a distinction made between naturally occurring wetlands, created wetlands, and created storm water ponds. This distinction affects how and if they are regulated or required to be replaced.

It is great to see a discussion topic and requests for more information regarding the wetland issues.

[Juan Grande]

I used to work for DNR Metro Waters as an intern so I know a bit about the wetland issues. There are actually 8 types of wetland with the types 3, 4 & 5 being more open water wetlands which are usually protected by the DNR, depending on size. Wetlands that are not protected by the DNR are protected under WCA (Wetland Conservation Act) and are usually administered by a local authority, be it the city or watershed district.

Approval must be obtained to fill any type of wetland and the mitigation ratio varies based on the quality of the wetland. Since that 81/610 project is a state highway construction project, I'm sure they have a mitigation plan in place.

I do know that if the Vikings stadium gets built in Anoka Co. that many many acres of wetlands will be filled and mitigated elsewhere. They're going to try to leave as much as possible and build around it, but excessive filling is pretty much inevitable.

[The Grebe]

Well, there are alot of posters here that are right in what they posted.

Mr. Tom Hovey, DNR hydrologist for the water shed district involved with the area of the drained slough, (I think I got that right?) called me back today and explained alot of the things that were posted here and I have to believe that with all the different groups and levels involved in the draining of a wetland like the one in question, the legality of the venture isn't going to slip through the cracks....the water might, but not the proceedure.

Man, what a complicated, multi-leveled, multi-faceted, sometimes changing deal! But, whatever the case may be, the standing water and most of the slough is still gone and in my opinion, that sucks!

[The Grebe]

Boilerguy...I know exactly what you are saying...For about 20 years, each and every fall, I use to bow hunt and run a long trapline through the Brooklyn Park, Champlin, Maple Grove, Plymouth and areas west, all the way out to Corcoran and beyond.

I had to hang up the traps about 10 years ago, but the changes that have taken place in that time are unreal? I can't even remember what used to be where?

[hawkeye43]

There was a guy by my home town that for 4 days pumped water out of a wetland. he pumped it over the hill, into a steam. When I heard about it I called TIPS, within 2 hours the C.O. was there. He called me to make sure he had the right place and more infomation. He said he was on the road and couldn't belive someone would pump that much water out,he never seen something that bad. With the pumps he had I know he pumped over 13 milion gallons out. The geese and ducks were just walking aroung lost. The C.O. was there for 3 hours taking pic. and talking the land owners next door. It sounds like the fine will be over $10,000 for sure because this guy has pulled stunts like this before.