Daunte on the trading block.....

[JIvers]

Unless Culpepper has a no-trade clause written in to his contract, I don't think it is his call to make on whether he is traded or not. And remember: this time last year, Red McCombs was loudly denying any intent to either sell the team or trade Randy Moss.

We don't know how much substance there is to any particular trade rumor, but the signs clearly point to DC playing somewhere else next year. Wilf seems to be adopting a house-cleaning mode, and unfairly or not, Culpepper has been tainted with the Love Boat affair. The demand for ten million a year after the season he had is evidence that either DC is detached from reality, or is trying hard to get out of Minnesota. I also think it unlikely that this many trade rumors would keep surfacing without there being something to them.

I doubt that the Jets or anyone else would give up a first-round pick for him with his knee situation, so I don't put much stock in that scenario. The Jamal-Lewis-for-Culpepper rumor likewise sounds unlikely, although Lewis had a bad season, and is on the down-side of his career, which decreases his trade value. Culpepper to Miami or Baltimore for a second or third round pick seems more likely to me. Arizona is still a possibility, as is Oakland, but the Cardinals just re-signed Kurt Warner, and the Raiders don't seem to know where they want to go on or off the field.

[JohnMickish]

Did you see Rich Gannons interview on TV last night? He basically said Culpepper is an idi0t. The Vikes have done thousands of cantracts and Culpepper has done zero. He (Pepper) has no idea of what he is doing.

[cybermuskie]

Found this little piece on ESPN's Insider today:

March 17 deadline for Culpepper? The only way anything will happen on a Daunte Culpepper trade is if the Vikings let him visit other teams and take physicals before March 17. Why is that date important? It's the day that Culpepper is due a $6 million roster bonus, and if he gets that money, he will remain a Viking. The fact the Vikings had all day to refute the trade rumors and even had a news conference in which they said nothing, shows there is a problem in the team's relationship with Culpepper. Obviously, Culpepper has angered the team by asking more than once for salary increases even though he's one of the highest-paid quarterbacks in football. Figure this to be a fishing mission to see if there are teams interested in trading for him. The Vikings have a history of this. They let rumors spread about Randy Moss during different points of two offseasons and finally ended up trading him to the Oakland Raiders last year.

Vikes' history a cautionary tale: If the Vikings are using the same tactics as they did in trading Moss, they better have learned something. They did a horrible deal on Moss. Linebacker Napoleon Harris played only 25 percent of the downs. Wide receiver Troy Williamson played only 29 percent of offensive downs. For giving up the game's most dangerous deep threat in Moss, that's pathetic value. Culpepper is one of the game's most gifted quarterbacks. If they are going to give him away like Moss, that doesn't speak well for the new ownership. Moss and Culpepper in exchange for two players who played less than 30 percent of the downs and maybe a second-round choice is giving away a franchise's assets. The only two teams that might be interested that make sense are the Ravens and the Dolphins. Culpepper is recovering from surgery to three of his four knee ligaments. He probably won't be ready to practice until September and may not be ready to play until October or later. The Ravens have the cap room for Culpepper and are always looking for one-sided deals. The Dolphins want a long-term quarterback, and they may be willing to wait for Culpepper. The Jets and Oakland could be interested but they don't have the cap room. It would cost $8 million this year to get Culpepper.

[JohnMickish]

Cyber, Moss what hurt last year and wasn't a threat at all, catching 4 TD's all season. He was suffering from the same hamstring injury that he had with the Vikes 2 years ago. He was once the number one threat in the NFL, and if he never heals to 100% he will be just another reciever. If he get healthy the Vikes made a bad choice, if he dosen't they made a good choice. The same thing is happening with Culpepper. Is the money he is owed worth the risk to have a lame duck sitting on the sidelines or would the money be better spent somewhere else? Culpepper is a very highly compensated QB and has had some very good years, but he has also had some very bad years. IMO the good year to bad year percentage ratio don't add up to what he is getting paid and I'm sure the people that count in the office are looking at it that way too. It's totally a money vs. performance issue. I'm sure if he was a little more consistant that would have helped his cause. It wasn't always his fault but unfortunatly the QB is always in the spotlight and gets the blame. The QB is the only position on the team where you can change only one player and have a major impact on the entire roster.

[cybermuskie]

MN,

I agree with you! I just posted what I had found on a membership site (espn insider)so we all can see what they are saying. My gift to fellow FM'ers!

[nofishfisherman]

Quote:

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It wasn't always his fault but unfortunatly the QB is always in the spotlight and gets the blame.

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That is true only from a fans perspecitve. If the team doesn't win the QB gets blamed from the fans not always from the coaches.. However, the football coaches and front office staff can probably look at his performance and see what is his fault and what is not. They will not cut or trade him if they think he wasn't not the major culprit in the teams bad performance.

The QB only takes the blame from the fans, the coaches know alot more about the team and how everyone played to more accuretly assign blame to the correct players.

My guess if they trade culpepper that will be a sign that says his knee is alot worse off then anyone will admitt. And that his chances of coming back to 100% are slim.

[Big Pine Walleye]

I still think that Defense is what wins championships. I would like to see them spend Culpeppers's contract money (wisely) on defensive players--beef up the o-line and run the ball. Let us take a page from those teams before us that have had success--Carolina, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Baltimore--all with great defenses, good running games, and quarterbacks that manage a game!!

[nofishfisherman]

If we get rid of Culpepper who do you guys want as a QB. Johnson may be alright for a year maybe two but he isn't the future. We won't get a pick good enough to get a top QB in the draft. From what I hear we are lucky to get a 2nd round pick.

Just wondering what you guys think for a future QB.

Not much out there worth much.

[JIvers]

Tom Brady was a seventh-round pick, and he hasn't done too badly in the NFL. Brad Johnson was a ninth-round pick, which would make him an unsigned rookie free agent today, and he has a steady if unspectacular career. Five months before he won a Super Bowl, no one outside of Iowa had heard of Kurt Warner. Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Cade McNown, and Akili Smith, among others were taken as QBs first overall, or early in the first-round, and they were all busts.

My point is that having a high-first round pick to use on a QB is no guarantee of good quarterback play. A solid organization and good scouting can find some great QBs in unlikely places (it was one of the things Denny Green could do very well). I see no reason for holding on to Culpepper, and his big $$$ contract, simply because the Vikings don't have a high draft pick to use on a college QB, especially when DC has a serious knee injury, and an offense that is not well-suited to Culpepper's skills.

[metrojoe]

Ozzie, Tell us how you really feel.

[metrojoe]

The fact remains that DC is not a team leader.

[nofishfisherman]

Quote:

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My point is that having a high-first round pick to use on a QB is no guarantee of good quarterback play. A solid organization and good scouting can find some great QBs in unlikely places (it was one of the things Denny Green could do very well).

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Wait a minute didn't Denny draft Culpepper. Are you saying that Denny found a good QB?

[hamrej23]

he to good to trade.. period.

[ozzie]

Do you really want to know........Well....oh wait I think I already did.......Yep I still hate him.....

[nofishfisherman]

Alot of mis informed people on here. Alot of opinions not based on facts, and alot of opinions that can't be backed by anything meaningful.

[ozzie]

hamrej23- are you drunk.... just kidding........but you must love watching him drop the ball out of his hands or throw it to the other team or even better after doing all this throw a td and do that f'n roll on dump......boooooo... he is overrated!!!!!!

[JIvers]

Quote:

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Quote:

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My point is that having a high-first round pick to use on a QB is no guarantee of good quarterback play. A solid organization and good scouting can find some great QBs in unlikely places (it was one of the things Denny Green could do very well).

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Wait a minute didn't Denny draft Culpepper. Are you saying that Denny found a good QB?

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Denny found a good QB for a high-powered offense like that he ran in Minnesota. The problem was that putting together that high-powered offense gobbled up a lot of cap-room, and left the Vikings with second-rate defenses. Culpepper's horrible play this past season demonstrates that he is not a controlled-passing game QB, and that is the system Childress intends to put in place. Johnson did a far better job than Culpepper this year in a short-passing oriented scheme, which is what the West Coast offense is. Denny Green also plugged in Jeff George, who did a pretty good job in Green's system--that does not make George a great QB. If he was, someone else would have signed him, as George is still looking for a job.

[nofishfisherman]

ozzie, who do you want to replace him? Favre? He had more INT's then anyone this year, nearly twice as many as the 2nd place guy.

Why some of you needlessly hate C-Pep is beyond me. What you say is not supported by the stats. He had a bad stretch of games but 2004 was probably the best year a QB has ever had. He shattered records all year long. Did you hate him during that enitre year as well? If you did you don't hate him becuase he is a bad player, you must just have a chip on your shoulder.

Also last year Moss was listed as not able to play for several weeks. He wasn't used as a decoy for 6 stragiht games. Did you even pay attention last year?

I'm not going to complain about a guy just becuase I don't like his celebration dance.

[JIvers]

Quote:

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Alot of mis informed people on here. Alot of opinions not based on facts, and alot of opinions that can't be backed by anything meaningful.

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nofishfisherman, I agree--attacking people without giving any specific examples to back up your attacks, is indeed "mis informed". It is indeed mere "opinion" when you don't give any facts to support your charges, and any such argument cannot be taken seriously. I think it is cowardly and dishonest to make vague charges without substantiating them.

Look at Culpepper's win/loss record as a starter from this past season, his QB rating, or his TD-to-turnover ratio, if you want facts. Plenty of posters have given all kinds of hard numbers to back up the argument that Culpepper is not well-suited to the West Coast offense. Now, compare Culpepper's performance to Brad Johnson's stats and record after he took over for Culpepper this past season, and explain why Culpepper is better suited to the West Coast offense than Brad Johnson. I have said many times that Culpepper could still be a good QB in a system that emphasizes the deep passing game and utilizes DC's ability to move out of the pocket, but that is not the West Coast offense. You have never replied to that, nofishfisherman, so I am still waiting to hear you explain why Culpepper is capable of being a West Coast QB, when he struggled so badly with short drops and quick reads in September and October of 2005. I am still waiting for you to acknowledge that the system in which DC put up good numbers is not the system that the Vikings used this past season, and more importantly, that it is not the system Childress has brought with him from Philadelphia.

I humbly await "meaningful facts", and not "opinion", from you, nofishfisherman, in your skilled, dispassionate fact-based rebuttal of the idea that Culpepper had a bad season, and that the three blown ligaments in his right knee have not raised any questions about his ability. I have no doubt that you will write a thoughtful, fact-based reply to this, amassing mountains of statistical evidence to show that Johnson's statistically superior job as QB this past season is misleading. This will include an explanation of why Culpepper's many fumbles and interceptions are in fact meaningless. I am confident that you will not reply to this post, nofishfisherman, by saying that I am "mis informed", without answering any of the points I have raised, or showing any actual evidence that I am in fact wrong to say Culpepper is best off being traded, as he is not the right sort of QB for the West Coast offense. Using personal attacks like calling someone "mis informed" without demonstrating any actual example of being "mis informed" is lazy, and the last resort of someone who is in over their head and can't win an argument based on merit. Therefore, I am sure you won't do that, nofishfisherman.

[buzzsaw]

Eyehunter is solid, better not mess with him eh. Good post!

[nofishfisherman]

Ok, where to start. First off I should say that the post you quoted was not directed at you personally. I didn't take notes to see who justified your opinions and who did not. I would saw after looking back at the previous posts that you are one of the few if not only one who did.

When looking at stats I have not looked at only this year as many of you are. Most people ignore past years. No one can argue he played bad this year, we won't go into the reasons for that becuase they are numerous and complicated IMO. But no one can argue that 2004 was one of the best years any QB has ever had. Some people latch on the the negetive I latch onto the positive. Just different ways of looking at the world.

If you look at his stats over the last 3 years and look at not just his numbers but how they compare to the league average you should see some trends that C-Pep is above average in almost all catagories. He has had some inconsistency at times and that is a flaw worthy of noting. But until this year his numbers where getting better and better. Other QB's have just as many INT's and fumbles as C-pep if you look at the numbers.

When talkting about the west coast style of play I agree to some extent that he may not be the best at it. However, the reason Brad can play that system is becuase he has to he doesn't have the arm strength to gun it anymore.

One thing that Childress has said numerous times is that the west coast offense is adaptable to the talent you have. I guess I would assume that that means you can make a guy like C-Pep work with in the system with some alterations. It is a system designed to be flexible.

Now, what I have been attacking is people saying he should be cut becasue he is a bum and a loser and was never any good. That is all false. I can listen to arguements that say he should be cut becuase his knee will never be 100% or even if his game isn't suited to what the coach wants to do.

However, if you have a good player would you cut him just becuase he doesn't fit a certain style of play? I don't think so. If C-pep had a decent year and Childress came in and wanted to use the west coast style do you think he would still want to get rid of him? No, that would be stupid, you don't cut a good player just becuase you think his style isn't perfect. You adapt your style to match his skills.

The main reason I wouldn't trade him is becuase if you get rid of him you won't get anything in return. Maybe a 2nd round pick. The value just isn't there. I would rather wait and see how things pan out with his knee and see if he rebounds from a bad year before deciding on whether to get rid of him. His value won't get any lower then it is right now. If you wait you either will get a good QB that rebounds from a bad year or you have a QB with a bad knee that can't play, (which is where you are right now).

So I guess I am an advocate of the wait and see school of thought.

[nofishfisherman]

few more thoughts.

Quote:

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Now, compare Culpepper's performance to Brad Johnson's stats and record after he took over for Culpepper this past season

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I have a problem with this statement. Brad did not come in and carry this team on his shoulders. In fact the offense could do nothing for a several game stretch with him at QB. I belive they went something like 2 games without an offensive TD. Is that the kind of performance you want from a QB. 150 yds, 1 int and no td's. Not with a running game as bad as we had.

I have said it before and I will say it again. All but 2 INT's throw by C-pep were thrown after the vikes were down by 2 scores. What this tells me is that the defense that improved is what started winning games. We would get down by 2 scores becuase the defense could stop people. If Brad played behind the same defense that C-pep did you would have seen a 2-5 record as well.

C-Peps int's come for the same reason as Favre's int's, they both try to do to much and the start pressing why they are behind. No one faults Favre for it but C-pep gets killed for it.

Thats all for now. If I left anything out I am sure you will let me know.

[JohnMickish]

"The main reason I wouldn't trade him is becuase if you get rid of him you won't get anything in return. Maybe a 2nd round pick. The value just isn't there. I would rather wait and see how things pan out with his knee and see if he rebounds from a bad year before deciding on whether to get rid of him. His value won't get any lower then it is right now. If you wait you either will get a good QB that rebounds from a bad year or you have a QB with a bad knee that can't play, (which is where you are right now)."

If he dosen't heal he is worth less. It's a gamble, do you trade him now for something or do you wait till he is worth either lots or nothing?

In the meantime one thing we haven't looked at is Johnson has said he wants to be a starter either here or somewhere else. Do you risk losing Johnson and then find out Pep isn't going to be healthy and then have (who is the third sting QB?) nobody as a qualified QB? What does a team do then, get Jeff George?

[nofishfisherman]

Brad is signed for next year I believe so he isn't going any where.

There are risks no matter which way you go on this. I just prefer to wait. I am sure he will be able to play again just not sure at what percentage 100% or 50%. Either way I think you can get a team to take him for a low draft pick. I just would rather wait. If he comes back 100% you get ripped off if all you get is a low pick.

[ozzie]

nofishfisherman never have i stated once anything about Favre. I am not that dumb!!!! I guess for the last few years he has played and I have watched alot of the games I recall many times saying what the f^&k is daunte doing or hold on to the f'n ball. I had the same feelings about mike tice as wondering what the he11 he was thinking on alot of occasions!!!! I guess I will have to go look back on the stats which mean nothing if they don't get the W. They went to the playoffs last year with what a 8-8 record. You are right nofishfisherman Daunte is the greatest qb minnesota has had and lets let him continue to pay him the big bucks and lead us to mediocre seasons. That is if he is ever able to come back!!!!