Did He or Didn't He...IT DOESN'T MATTER!

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

Everybody may as well ring in here with their votes whether he did or did not catch the ball, consider this. Josh Paul held his mitt down on the ground for an extra second after surrounding the ball with his mitt. This could have influenced the ump who did raise his hand, indicating a strike, but the ump did not call out. I believe that the ump didn't really know if Paul caught the ball or not and hats off to AJ for selling the call by running down to first as well as cudos to Joe Crede for hitting the next pitch for the game winner. You have to play what the ump calls and in the appeal, the third base ump did not see it clearly enough to overrule the call on the field. I think that the pitching performance of Mark Buehrle will be overshadowed by the controversy. He pitched an outstanding complete game 4 hitter, what a stud! The players have to play and the umps have to ump. Register your votes now.

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD...YES!

[Swamprat72]

Ah, the controversial A.J. What a great move on his part! Another great pitching performance by the Sox and this one gets rewarded with a W. After watching all the replays I think he did catch it, but like Windy said it doesn't matter anymore. A.J. may go down in history in another way- this play more than any other, shows some need for instant replay. Even if they had it, could they show one way or the other? The Sox offense will have to come around for them to win the series though. Any worries Windy?

[friendlyfisher]

I thought it was a bad call. I dont think the umps where out to get the angles, I just think it was an unfortanate incedent that could not of happened at a worse time. Just not cool to see a playoff game end like that. friendly

I still love A.J.

He is a gamer, and he is the guy you want on your team. But you hate him if he is on the other team.

[Guest]

There seem to be a few facts

1-The ump called it a strike

2-He raised his hand that it was a out,and catcher rolled it back to the mound.

3-Like all pro sports,you have to have more games to take in the big money,normal umping-bad,bad,call.

[PierBridge]

The catcher is an I D I O T what the He11 was he thinking, do you see Erstad "sp" at first base he was waiting for that fool to throw him the ball.

You never ever take for granted any out especially the 3rd out of a playoff game.

[Mudcutter]

Windy-

It does matter--- because if it was your team getting the run around- (a team with DISCO DEMO night that hasn't won it all since 1917 down 0-2 going to the BIG A) all hell would have broken loose on the south side. It doesn't matter for you windy, becasue your team won.

Anyways-- some of my thoughts as a avid b-ball fan;

One-- Eddings is the GOAT. Period. Never do you hear umps or offs defending their call. Eddings and the crew got in a room, locked the door, and made their story fall in line before coming out of the closet. When the game is over- they are not going to rad out a memeber of their crew NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!

Two- Eddings never made up his mind. YES - he called strike three but never said "NO CATCH" when the ball hits the ground on a 2 strike pitch when the batter swings and misses(thou not a rule), a courtesy) for the ump to yell to the catcher. Eddings made a human error. but he never asked for help until AJ made it to 1st base and the ball was lying near the mound with the angels running off the field.

Three- Don't blame Josh Paul-- credit AJ. All becasue of a confused UMP. It was over for the catcher once AJ saw the ball thrown out to the mound. KUdos to AJ- He didn't hear anything, and took advantage of it.

Four-- please have instant replay at least thought of for MLB. Even the White Sox radio guys where saying it was a strikeout- inning over catch by Paul. The Angles may have lost,, but they didn't deserve to lose this way. Get the call right, like they do in every other big pro contest. what's another 5-10 mins when the UMPS huddle??

P.S

I wouldn't want to play a Mike Scioscia coached team after something like this. They don't need anything to motivate them more.

Angels in 5.

I know Umps are to be presuppostion free-- but do you think Eddings or Raap (3rd base ump) will be more likely to give the Angels a close call now?? I would like to see Selig come in and change the UMP crew for the rest of the series.

[mnwild]

I thought he was out in my mind, the ball NEVER hit the ground. But on the other hand the catcher for LA should of tagged AJ just in case.

[genegodawa]

Holy crimineeee....and I thought the umps always waited until the WS to make a real bad call. Pathetic call for the Halos, lucky for the Sox. We're all human and stuff happens in sports all the time (I kind of think the Olympic basketball fiasco some years ago against the US was one of the worst I have ever seen), but I still don't want instant replay. Now, maybe if I had a bet down....

[CNY Tim]

Because the umpire did not say "no catch, no catch" Catcher Paul's reaction was justified. However, even the best catchers do make the tag if the play is close like that to leave no doubt in anyone's eyes. So first we had an umpire that didn't do his job and secondly a catcher whom didn't do his job and the one thing I tell my girls is when in doubt and first base is not occupied on a swinging third strike run to first. So AJ was doing the right thing by taking off to 1st base. You'll have to forgive me boys as I was preoccupied watching my Cardinals beat the Astro's and Carpenter did one heck of a job 2 runs over 8 innings and we beat Andy Petitte. Mulder looked very good after his BP session the other day and will have to be solid tonight. We have to get to Oswalt early and often... Small ball, long ball the Cardinal's are doing it all... "That's a winner!"

[sunnyj]

Windy, you might have to give the Twins some credit here. Afterall they are the ones who taught AJ how to play

I cant believe i'm saying this..............Go White Sox

[rundrave]

I didnt watch much of the game. However what little bit I did see was poor judgement by the umpires.

Now I know, as windy says, a win is a win as there is nothing that can be done period.

I also know the Sox got screwed in the 3rd or 4th inning on that tag at second base. The guy, I dont remember who it was safe by a mile.

I understand bad calls are part of the game, I just hate to see them determine the outcome of a game. We will never know who would have won the game if it was called correctly, but its just a 5 game series now instead of 7.

Windy, you have to admit, that nobody wants to go down a champion and win the way they did last night. Of course your not gonna cry today because it went in your favor. Your fair weathered attitude would have had a stroke had the sox come out 0-2.

[fishyguy]

Quote:

---

We will never know who would have won the game if it was called correctly, but its just a 5 game series now instead of 7.

---

The best part of that statement is that the Angels have home field advantage for that 5 game series and have proven they can win in Chicago if needed. They just have to get keep their pitching from getting worn down.

[genegodawa]

And the Angels won the first game with minimal rest too.

---

Rundrave, I beg to differ. Crede was out at 2nd on that liner to Anderson. His headfirst stuck his arms in the dirt for just a split second too long according to what I saw on the replay.

Both teams' pitching is pretty solid so far. I was on the edge of my seat and no matter what the chUMPs did to the Angels, it was a nine-inning game. Of course, don't forget the first inning gift of Washburn's overthrow.

Either way, last night the Sox were 'sleeping with the Angels' - but not for long!

[juggs]

Coupla things--First, the catcher caught the ball. If he didn't, there would have been a scuff mark in the dirt where it hit. He should have tagged A.J. but he assumed the ump would get the call right, which they usually do. In fact, I've never seen this type of controversy before. I've done some umping and the way I judged this was by sound. The home plate ump can't see whether the ball is caught cleanly or not but he can hear if it hits the ground. I don't know what the standard protocol is for this situation. When a runner tries to score on a tag play, avoids the tag but misses the plate, what does the ump do? Nothing, because the play is still live. That may be the same procedure for a dropped third strike but I don't know for sure. It does make sense, though. If that's the case, the ump did the right thing by calling the pitch a strike but not calling him out, if that is indeed what happened. Not having any audio we don't know. Second, if the Sox continue to play like they have the first two games they're dead in the water. Save for their pitching, they look like little leaguers, which means they look a lot like the Twins. What's with Rowand trying to score from third with no outs?? And Crede getting doubled off second? Not to mention the woeful bunting. My prediction is they drop all three in Anaheim. The Angels appear to be the much better team.

[genegodawa]

Yes, Juggs, the ghost of the Dybzynski-base-running-gaff is still alive at Comiskey/Cellular park.

Audio, video scmideo....the chUMP first gave the strike signal, paused, and when AJ turned for the dugout gave the out signal. Then AJ took off after the ball was rolled out to the mount. As an ump, I would have had to call AJ out just for abandoning his chance by turning toward the dugout. I know, I know: how far does he have to go to show abandonment? Well, if I already gave the out signal it wouldn't matter if he was only one step away from the plate.

The chUMP blew it and then his cohorts couldn't correct it. What a bunch of maroons....bad judgement like the Denkinger call against the Cards/pro-KC years ago is one thing, but not fixing the plate chUMP's error is inexcusable by the other 10 eyes out there. I guess every team has their "Bartman" sometime.

[PierBridge]

LOL were you watching a different game.....Wrong, wrong, wrong.

First he signaled the ball did not hit the bat. Your wrong he's right.

Then he signaled AJ struck out which he did. Your wrong he's right.

And your 3rd strike which is quite funny you would change the rules of baseball and call AJ out instead of waiting for AJ to enter the dugout and then be called out.

Don't quit your day job.

Wish I had more time to rebut the other ridiculos assertions in this thread.

[genegodawa]

Pier,

Glad you responded. I would rather learn from my mistakes than ignore them. You are right that I do not know the exact rule. However, I will research it the best I can. Or, why don't you put class in session and please quote chapter and verse to make it easier for me. I would appreciate that. And please find something about a signal for the ball not hitting the bat (which is what the chUMP meant with his sidearm swing I guess). There is one for foul tips but I don't think there is one for a swing and a miss. Kind of opposite to what you assert.

Also, making them wait until he hits the dugout seems wrong on its face. So, he gets to the dugout railing and while everyone is running in, gets to take off back toward first? Too illogical for me. I tend to think it would be called similar to being out of the baseline...which does not require a tag. I know though that logic means nothing in making rules. And the chUMPs don't make 'em, they are just supposed to enforce them.

I guess my intrepretation of the sequence is diff than yours. So now I would have to agree we need audio too. But I don't know why the chUMP would give a flat sidearm swing of his arm (for strike), then give the right fist-up 90degree signal if he didn't mean strike, then out.

Seriously, let's continue this so I can learn the rule.

Pier...Pier....Pier...anyone?

Oh yeah, please make time to rebut the other ridiculous assertions. Your opinion matters even though you know what they say about opinions.......then we'll see who's laughing and who's being laughed at.

Actually, that makes me think of a good topic about strange situations and the actual rule. I'll start it for all us chUMP wanna-beeees (although that only might be me and Pier).

PS Grabbed this off the ESPN.com article from about 6:30 pm Central time for you Pier. Guess I'm not alone in what I saw: "With two out in the bottom of the ninth and A.J. Pierzynski at the dish for the White Sox, Angels reliever Kelvim Escobar delivered a pitch that — according to every available replay — catcher Josh Paul fielded cleanly. Pierzynski swung and missed for strike three and the apparent final out of the inning. Eddings made the strike call and then pumped his fist to indicate the out. This is the point at which things began to unravel."

PPS Can't afford to quit my day job. How do you think I get to spend so much time debating baseball rules on the 'net?

[friendlyfisher]

Windy, Im disapointed in you. This was the perfect time for you to say you were sorry to see the game go down the way it did. This game was one of the best postseason games in a long time. The pitching was great and the table was set for another extra inning game.

Instead the ump blew a call and we have this game end in debate.

Now I understand your just happy to have your team come out on top, I would probly do the same. At the same time, if you are half the baseball fan you make yourself out to be, you can not be happy with the way your team won the game. friendly

[SledNeck]

Congrats on the tainted victory.

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

Sorry Guys,

But there is no "taint" here. This is the scoop from the Windy City. First, the ump is under no obligation to say no catch, just like when there is a play at the plate and the runner misses the plate, the ump will not call him safe nor will he call him out he will just stand there until either the catcher tags the runner or the runner tags the plate OR if the runner goes to his dugout and hits the first step. This is fact and is the rule. So I hope that clears up the crock that Josh Paul was trying to peddle about the ump not saying, "No Catch". He should have been saying, "No Catcher" it was a stupid play on Paul's part, he could have easily tagged AJ at home or could have leisurly tossed the ball to first base.

Second: The home plate umpire. He was consistant through the whole game with his call and here is what each part of his "mechanics" meant. The sweeping safe motion with his right arm indicated to everybody that a swing was made without contact to the ball. If there would have been contact with the ball he would have made the sweeping motion while touching it to his left hand, that is the universal signal for a fouled ball. So this first motion let everybody know that AJ did in fact swing at the ball and did not hit it. His second motion with his right arm pump indicated a strike NOT an out. If you watched him the entire night he used this arm pump on strike one, strike two and strike three. Therefore he was letting everybody know that it was strike three. The third part of his mechanic is a vocal calling of, "Your out". This is the critical part of the play. HE NEVER CALLED AJ OUT. That is why AJ started to run after he took a step towards his dugout and he fully expected to feel Josh tag him on the butt and he said this on Jim Rome's show tonight. When AJ did not hear the ump call him out and he did not feel Paul tag him, he started to run towards first and the rest is WHITE SOX history. I think everybody did their job on that play, except the catcher, a former White Sox player, Josh Paul.

As for the ball hitting the ground or not, it has been debated 9 ways to Sunday and there have been 100 different angles and enhanced blow up shots and it looks like the ball does change direction, bouncing up slightly towards Paul's mitt. Like I said in my previous post, I thought I saw Paul hesitate for a second too long with his mitt on the ground and I think that is where he was letting the ball nestle into his mitt. I believed it then and still believe that the ball did, hit the ground prior to entering his mitt.

The play did not score the winning run. Josh Paul could have thrown out Ozuna stealing 2nd and he did not. The pitcher could have retired Crede on an 0-2 count, he did not. Instead he hung a curve to Crede and the rest is WHITE SOX history.

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD...YES!

[Mudcutter]

Windy-

No Taint??? I think not. Eddings is quoted in the New York post, as being indifferent in his call. He wishes he would have been more assertive in his call. Those are his words. I don't have the links, but if you do some digging, you'll find them off Google. Windy-- Eddings missed the call. Period. What replay are you looking at??? The ball has no scuff mark and no dirt is kicked up. You are correct on the umpire not having to give the catcher the "NO Catch" deal, but, if you listen to any post-season player talk about those same situations, in courtesy, they always do, especially since AJ clearly swung and missed. The ump botched the call. Period. AJ took advantage. Nothing agst him. But in a big baseball fans' op, YOU DIDN'T GET A RUNNER ON BASE (THAT SCORED THE WINNING RUN) WITHOUT A BOTCHED CALL!!!!!! Admit it Windy. You guys got a call- that if it went agst you- you'd be crying to till heaven knows when.

hats off to Mike Scioscia. Perfect opp to lambast the umpires, he looks not to that, but to sweep at home.

Windy--- Shields and F-rod are too much in a close game, and they have all been close and you won 1 on a botched call-

that's all you get. Expect the ANgels to BLOW you out with LAckey--- he shut down the Yanks and left ahead.Not a angels fan, but Will see how Jenks and company do at the big A agst that monkey thing you better hold one game or it's 94 years and counting!!!!Put that on the board. Angels in 5!!!!

[buzzsaw]

NEW YORK -- Given another chance, umpire Doug Eddings said he would've been more emphatic in making the call that helped the Chicago White Sox win Game 2 of the American League Championship Series.

If he could do it over, Doug Eddings says he would have made this call more forecfully.

"The only thing I'm down on myself is I should have sold it either way," Eddings told The New York Times for a story posted on its Web site Thursday night, a day after Chicago beat the Los Angeles Angels 2-1 to pull even in the best-of-seven series.

"I should have either said, 'No catch,' or, if I did have a catch, that he was out. Which I never said: 'He's out,' " Eddings said.

Eddings was escorted by two Orange County sheriffs and a Major League Baseball security officer as he exited the flight from Chicago, the newspaper said.

White Sox catcher A.J. Pierzynski struck out swinging with two outs in the bottom of the ninth Wednesday night, but he hustled to first and was safe because Eddings ruled the pitch was not gloved cleanly.

Thinking the inning was over, Angels catcher Josh Paul had rolled the ball to the mound with the Angels already coming off the field. Eddings' call stood and Pierzynski scored the winning run on Joe Crede's double.

Eddings told the newspaper that he planned to change his style to more clearly reflect the difference between calling a strike and calling a batter out.

Plate umpires are trained to shout "No catch!" or indicate that the ball is in play after a swinging strike; Eddings, who has maintained that he was right in saying the ball hit the dirt before Paul gloved it, was silent.

Mike Port, baseball's vice president of umpiring, told The Associated Press on Thursday that Eddings did nothing wrong and that umpires are not required to audibly call "No catch."

[genegodawa]

I now agree that if there was no verbal "out" call by the chUMP, catcher Josh Paul should have tagged AJ or thrown to first-THEN the inning would have been over-BUT only if on all the other strikeouts during the game he verbally said "out" or "batter's out" or something like that.

[CNY Tim]

This is nothing compared to Don Denkinger's call... Took the wind right out of our sails in that 85 World Series versus the Royals in game 6... I'm for instant replay! Calls obviously blown can change the complexion of the game and ultimately the series.

[mnwild]

NYC Tim,

I saw that play the other night on sportcenter they had the top 10 blown calls of all time and that was a horrible call.

Off this subject few words about the Cards, Is old man Sanders a machine or what, 18 AB's 2hr's 12RBI, this guy is a stallion.