When buying a lab?

[eyepatrol]

I've never owned a dog before, but my family may get one next year. We'd get a lab, and so I've got just a few questions.

When buying a lab, is there anything in particular you look for? I'd assume that a pure-bread would be the best.

Do you look for a pup that has a well trained mother or father?

Is there any difference, besides color, in getting a black lab, chocolate lab, or yellow lab? Personality differences? Learning capability differences?

Any idea on how much a lab puppy would cost?

Is it worth sending your dog to school? I wouldn't have a lot of time to train a dog as my work days are 10 - 12 hours long, have two young kids, etc., etc.

Any help on what to look for and other things would be appreciated!

Thanks, bc.

[fish2live]

my wifes cousin breeds labs in south dakota and i asked them the same question when i was getting one from them. they said yellow or black has best temperment for some reason they said if you have kids they would suggest to stay away from chocolates, this is there opinion and they have been breeding for many years. as looking for ease of training look for amature field champ blood lines this is what a movie i have said,(game dog)but i wouldn't think it would be that big of difference. just look for good blood lines and you will be fine. hope this helps i also would like input from other lab owners to see what they think. like i said this is not my opinion but, my wifes cousins.

[rcook72]

Labs are great dogs! I have a choc. male very well behaved but if you don't have the time for a dog and to train it Labs especially can get destructive. They need alot of attention for the first couple of years. Have a brother and 3 friends with them all under 4 yrs mine the oldest. The one guy that doesn't spend as much time with his dog always has problems. The rest of us have loving life long partners that can't stop trying to make you happy. WIth the amount of hrs you work I wouldn't suggest a lab. thats my .02

[angelus403]

i had a mixed black lab.. i was told before buying one get a book on training a lab then you'll know what to look for

[Ufatz]

I want to be very honest, and helpful. With your present employment situation and hours worked I'd think twice about getting a nice Lab. To be fair to the dog you HAVE to spend time with them and you have to have the time to be patient. Sure, you could send the dog to a trainer, but would you even have the TIME to work with it once in a while? Only buy a purebred dog and, for what its worth, I have found and heard from others that the BLACK is still the way to go. I'm not seeking any arguments here (HA!) just stating an opinion based on owning .a dozen of them and what I have heard from other old dog guys.

Its not really fair to the dog to spend its life sitting in a kennel, for a few minutes a day of attention. Maybe you could consider a small house dog, or even better,a small dog from the animal shelter for your first dog. It could be a family project. And fun too. Late on you can think about a nice purebred Lab.

Think it over some more.

[Bryce]

Black is the color of the dominant gene and is therefore the most common. There are many breeders that can provide you a great dog of either of the other 2 colors. Titled or competed parents are just further proof of good breeding resulting is superior intelligence and ability. I'm sure everyone has had the privelage of hunting with the bragged up hound that can't hunt up a hotdog in a phone booth. There are many good labs coming out of untitled parents but are you willing to take a chance with this big of an investment? Stay away from any litter that can't provide OFA for hips and CERF for eyes on both parents. I would think $300-350 would be a good starting point in your area. Expect $400-600/month for training. 3-4 months with a trainer will get you a real nice dog. Worry more about obedience than fetching. The fetch is bred into them, the obedience needs to be taught. Good luck.

[caseymcq]

If you are looking for a good family dog(and a good looking dog) go for one that has been bred for "English Confromation." They are good looking "blocky" dogs and a majority of the time they have a calm disposition.

I bought a dog from a kennel in Grove City. She was a little bit spendy but well worth every penny. If you would like the name of the breeder shoot me an email at

[email protected]

They have a pretty good HSOforum you can check out. They offer all three colors and are great for answering any questions you might have.

[BLACKJACK]

Consider getting a female lab, those young males can get hard headed!! Females still have the same hunting instincts but tend to listen take a scolding to heart. I started out with a male 20 years ago, and then tried a female lab, I'm on my third one now.

[LABS4ME]

I've owned, trialed and bred labs for around 20 years now and I feel I can honestly answer several of your questions.

First off, coat color has NO bearing on their personality or field ability. This is as to say only human brunettes make good friends and hunters. With that said, looking at the lines within the dogs, this WILL determine what you should end up with.

A trained (even better... titled) mother and/or father doesn't directly equate to a outstanding qualified dog. Ex. You can still have a brood (Contact US Regarding This Word) passing down more than qualified genes without herself ever being hunted or trialed. In the same breath it is nice knowing and/or seeing the parents abilities and achievements to make your decision easier.

Lab pups start as low as Free and go up into the several thousands of dollars. It depends on what you are looking for. I'd say you would most likely fall into that $350-750 range. Make sure that a minimum 2 generations have hips - elbows and eyes certified.

While I agree professional trainers are great to do a lot of finish work if you do not have the time or knowledge to do it, but your dog will still require a lot of time investment up front without the aid of a trainer. There is a lot of obedience work that needs to be fully ingrained in your dogs head if you ever want to make him into a fine hunting companion. Hunting is 3/4 obedience to 1/4 hunting... and a lot of the hunting ability has been instilled into him through breeding and it just needs refining. As Bryce said, the obedience is not genetic. Also once the trainer has given him the tools to be a good hunter, it takes a lot of practice and repeat sessions to keep him at the level the trainer brought him to. If you do not have the time to re-inforce what the trainer has taught him, I don't see spending the money on the trainer in the 1st place, (unless you want to pay the trainer yearly to clean him up) Plain and simple owning a dog is a fair amount of work but the rewards are great in the end.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Bobby Bass]

I to will cast a vote for black labs I have had labs in my household for 30 years now. Sometimes just one and at times as many as three. Since you say this is your first dog I would be more concern about how you wil select your first dog. Ask around and find out how people picked their dogs. The very best way is to have the dog pick you. Go and sit with the puppies and see who comes to you on his/her own. I am very lucky right now that I have two labs at home and one is mine and one is my daughters and by that I mean they are family dogs but at the end of the day and when they are looking for attention or have a need they go to their owners. Labs are very faithful, if you are lucky enough to connect with one then they deserve the same commitment from you.

[WaveWacker]

I'll agree that color has nothing to do with personality. I've seen mellow dogs of all colors and hyper ones of all color. I've also seen dogs with no field trial lines in their background that are phenominal hunting dogs. Sure if you have a lot of money to spend on a dog, one with field championship lines may be more of a lock for a good hunter. I'd just make sure that the parents where hunters.

Not sure if your aware of this, but some labs have bad hips. I would make sure that the parents (or at least grandparents) have at least "good" hips. This typically is something that a vet would determine and documentation should be able to be provided to you. As talked about in another post in this forum, nothing worse then having a dog that should be in his prime but just can't get it done due to having bad hips.

Last thing, and I'm not sure if there is any merit to it but it's worked for me, I bring along a pheasant wing (can be purchased if you don't have a left over from the year before), tie it on a string and attach to a fishing pole. get the pups out and drag the wing around. The one that shows the most interest in the wing is the one that I go with. Good Luck

[caseymcq]

The hip concern is a good point. Most reputable breaders will have both parents hips certified. Many will also have the dogs eyes and elbows checked. Ask for it if the breeder hasn't already provided it. Most breeders will also offer some sort of guarantee on the dog. A refund of a portion of the cost of the dog upon proof of having the dog fixed or a replacement puppy.

Hips can be tricky though. Both parents can have great hips and if a pup grows too fast that can lead to hip problems. The main thing there is to maintain a healthy weight throughout a pups growth process.

[surfs]

Bobby bass made the best point for you when buying a lab. I bought my lab 2 years ago from a great breeder in northern Minnesota. The first thing she told me was to let the dog pick me. I brought each puppy outside and walked away from them, like 20-30 yards and the puppies that came to me narrowed down the pick. Then I put the puppies on there back to see which one had the best temperment (being placed on there back). Hence I chose my pup and she has been amazing in every aspect. Hunting, the only thing I can say is that bringing home game is the icing on the cake. I enjoy watching her hunt more then actually shooting the birds. Obviously I do shoot and such, but what an enjoyment to watch her work and have fun. Also, I have a 3 month old daughter and she is very protective of her. At night I will catch her going into the babies room and jumping up on her hind legs to look into the crib and then back into my my room to sleep on her bed. Never taught her that!! Everything else will come with time. You just need to spend alot and I mean alot of time with you pup in the beginning. You'll understand this once you have one. The cost of mine was 550 and I'll be getting another one this spring, but it will cost me 600 now. She increased her cost because she knows what other breeders are selling their pups for and she has excellent pups to where she can do this and people will pay and she is still on the low end of cost for the quality.

Best of luck!

[R Buker]

Quote:

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First off, coat color has NO bearing on their personality or field ability. This is as to say only human brunettes make good friends and hunters. With that said, looking at the lines within the dogs, this WILL determine what you should end up with.

Ken

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Ken,

You have plenty of words of wisdom. I do, however, take exception to the idea that coat color has nothing to do with behavior or ability.

Here's why:

While it's true that potentially, you can have black, yellow, red and brown in each litter, chocolate is a very recessive trait. For example, if you breed black to black, you aren't going to get a chocolate pup.

So, that means there have to be some significant chocolate in the bloodlines in the near past.

The history of chocolates is interesting. Obviously there have been choc labs throughout history. In the distant past, choc labs were considered outside of the standard. Most of the time they were culled from the litter.

But, an interesting thing happened about fifteen to twenty years ago. Suddenly, chocolate labs surged in popularity. With that came the unscrupulous breeders. Some of them bred any chocolate lab they could get their hands on. This resulted in fat checkbooks for them and an entire hoard of chocolate labs that were ill bred, had ill dispositions and had zero hunting ability but were BROWN!!!

Thankfully that craze has died down. They are not as bad as they were 10 years ago but that lineage lingers in chocolates and their decendants.

I used to train dogs for a living and nearly stopped taking chocolate labs back in the early 90's because of the terrible dogs I was seeing.

To this day, I advise people to pick labs from stock that has NO chocolate labs in them for five generations. Just not worth the risk in my book.

In other areas, I'd be very cautious about what kind of dog I bought too.

When I was training for a living, my most common call started off like this. "Hi, my name is Joe. I saved my money and bought the best dog with the greatest bloodlines I could afford. But, the problem is, I can't do a thing with him. Can you help?"

What happened was that they folks were buying a lab from fancy high-test bloodlines. They had outstanding potential for a field trialer but were worthless in the hands of an inexperienced trainer. The owners didn't stand a chance. These were dogs that took a whole lot of training and a very skilled hand at keeping them trained. Not for the average guy.

For about fifteen years I bred labs. I attempted to get a line of dogs that were more mellow and easier to work with. I was very successful. But, my dogs were not for the guy who wanted to trial them. They didn't have the speed or flash. What they did have was a drive to hunt and please and a disposition that almost made them look lazy unless they were hunting. They were very easy to work with and very good hunters.

So, I caution people about buying a dog with "good bloodlines" as that really doesn't mean a thing to the average hunter. Instead, shop carefully for a pup. Look at BOTH parents and make sure you like their disposition and hunting ability. Too many people only look at the female. When she's with a litter of pups, she's not exhibiting her true disposition.

Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to toss a few more ideas out there.

Randy

[LABS4ME]

O.K. Randy,

Let me clear a few things up...

1st the chocolate gene is not recessive... yellow is a recessive gene. Chocolate is a mutated black gene. You can get chocolate from all black lines... though it is very rare. It is called spontaneous mutation. This is originally where they came from.

2nd the coat color HAS NO BEARING on personality and field ability. The lines they are bred down from will determine that. I fully agree with your assessment that high powered field trial breedings should be left to trialers and hunters should look more towards dogs with hunt test titles and a hunting backround. BUT there are many fine hunters out of top trialing backrounds. I have one now out of Mac, going on 8 years old and a pleasure to hunt with. VERY VERY obedient and in control, but balls to the walls when out hunting.

3rd I agree there has been/are unscrupulous breeders that breed without regard to advancing the breed. This again falls upon the shoulders of the buyer to investigate who they are buying there dog from. The thing that breeders and buyers continually make transaction with more or less total disregard to is in inherited disorders. (ie: hips, elbows, eyes, allergies, epilepsy etc). Unfortunatley those that bought "pet stock" chocolates hopefully were buying for "pet" purposes. If you are seriously looking for a working dog and buy it willy-nilly, I guess I don't feel sorry for those who did.

4th to say you are advising that people not buy pups from lines with dogs who have chocolates within 5 generations is ludicrous. why 5? why not 50? I'm sure those who have successfully completed hunt test titles and/or field trial titles with their chocolates or have impeccable hunting dogs or dogs with chocolate lines in them would really get a good chuckle out of your statement.. just so you know... I just bred a black dog (with yellow genes) to a chocolate male out of Calverts (Jazz)lines. And by the way he is a hunt test and trial dog with many accomplishments. Oh and by the way he is hunted extensivley. I'm exicited as he1l to see these pups and may potentially keep one. 2 of my best labs ever both had chocolate in them. Both were black but had some chocolate... one was a direct decendent of a chocolate mom (she made her master hunter and was the epitome of lab in every regard). I've also hunted behind many many fine chocolates in my days in the field. You paint a broad stroke in your statements.

5th I agree with the the tact you took in your breeding program. I too have continually shyed away from the breeding to "high powered" trial dogs as most hunters do not need that kind of dog, and most of my dogs go to hunting homes. Agagin it boils down to your customers doing some homework and buying their pup from the stock that hey are looking for. Again to re-iterate... there are a lot of good hunting dogs that are being bred and you will end up with a good hunting dog out of them... but watch these breedings for clearances for inherited disorders. I would rather have a border-line out of control dog out of high powered breeding (can be corrected with proper training) than a "great/perfect" natural hunting dog with hip displasia (can't be corrected).

In closing I think you bring up a great point in stating to do some research in the potential litters you are looking at, but I felt some of your points needed an oposing view point.

Good Luck!

Ken

[R Buker]

Ken,

You make good points. I guess I was directing my posts toward those who don't have the experience and knowledge that you do. Not everyone does. And, pet stock is still all too common but I will maintain that in my experience, I've seen more bad chocolates than any other color.

Now, if one goes about shopping with an educated eye, chocolates will be and are just fine. But, there are too many pet stock chocolate lines out there and for the guy who wants a "lab" the 300 dollar pup in the paper are more attractive than the 800 dollar pup they'd have to research, etc.

I think you clarified things very well. Thank You.

Randy

[caseymcq]

Randy and Ken -

I really appreciated your discussion on what if any indication color is on the kind of lab you will get.

Let me throw this one at the two of you (and everyone else for that matter) Pointy-nosed vs. Blocky-headed? I am very interested in hearing what discussion (if any) will be on this topic.

Casey

[311Hemi]

To me the pointed head vs. blocky had had no bearing on my decision. The dogs genes/abilities/temperment/etc came first, looks were at the bottom of the list....although I think my pup will be a good looking dog, he wont have the big block head. I think you can go from one end with the blocky head with not very good abilities to the pointed head with great abilities. And then a mix inbetween the two, so called multi purpose that can be both show and field dogs (Lab4me could give more detail on that). Researching the breeder and their lines would help get what exactly you are looking for.

[LABS4ME]

casey... pointy nose vs. block head really again has no direct bearing on the dogs ability... I actually chuckle when I see ads that put this in their ads to sell pups...

With that said let me add this point. TOO MANY labs are being bred with disregard to their physical atributes. Unfortunatley the primary factor in the breeding decision is performance based. While great emphasis should be placed on this attribute, all others should be included in the decison to breed. We have obviously covered inherited disorders, but the MOST OVERLOOKED factor is making breed standards. Labs were bred to conform to these standards for a reason... it helps them in the field. One of the greatest overlooked is the coat. A lot of field trial dogs I look at have very little coat (labs should have a dual coat, used for insulating in cold water). I see many, many dogs who only have guard hair on their back (no downy under coat) and a dismal belly coat. I've judged labs that you'd swear were cross bred as they were the most snipey, long eared, whippy tailed critters you'd ever see. I know some of them were bred as they were Master Hunters and again the title holds more bearing than breeding a complete dog. The goal of all breedings should not be to put puppies on the ground but to continually advance and/or improve the breed. There are many fine kennels breeding "dual purpose" labs and/or complete labs in regards to covering all bases... field ability, cleared of inherited disorders, temperment, tractability, looks/physical build. Empahsis should be placed on all of the afore mentioned. These were the common labs (and why we bought them many years ago) of most breedings. But since with the explosion of labs being bred, to many breedings are being done without regard to ALL of the attributes that made a lab a lab. Temperment is another factor that is rarely considered... All out balls to the walls, bouncing off the walls, shaking, whimpering, on the edge of out of control dogs being bred. You'd have problems finding a dog like this 30 years ago, but it now is common place. Again trialers love speed and style, and they breed for it, train in as much control as needed, get a title and repeat the process, breeding to another "high powered" dog to make even more wound up dogs.....keeping the cycle going and not actually making puppies for the average guy.

On the flip side, the bench people have done their own damage to the breed by not only breeding with disreagard to the primary reason of the lab (field work), they have bastardized the standards and morphed the "specimen" lab into a dog that would not be able to work all day in the field (even if it wanted to... which it probably wouldn't). They are no longer the athletic dog that the goal was, but rather heavy boned, short legged, deep chested, that are on the earth for one reason (to get their owners a ribbon or plate) dogs.... I know many show people, some use their dogs in the field to keep the fire kindled, and I commend them, but others have dogs that wouldn't be able to differentiate between a pork chop and a duck!

In a perfect world it would be great to see the two meld again to make "one" lab as in the days of old, but my fear is the division is too great and the dogs are to far apart in build/ability for it to be common place to pick up one of these pups. We may potentially never again see anyone put their hand over a "Dual Champion". That in itself is a sad statement. That WAS the epitome of a lab! Perfect in every way.

So in closing, again look into your breedings, get as much into you pup with all the attributes that a lab is/was and you will probably have a dog of a lifetime.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Mille Lacs Guy]

Ken-

That was one of the best posts I have read on FM in awhile. I used to be active in Springer field trails and the same thing is going on with the bench and field dogs being almost two different breeds. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that a lot of the breeders be it show or field are advancing the breed.

[Koda]

I've never seen so many old wives tales and cliches in one thread before. Male vs. Female, Black vs. Yellow. It's no wonder where these things start.

[caseymcq]

Ken-

I understand what you are saying about the coat. My wife and I got a lab from an animal rescue opereation when he was a puppy. He is a great dog. A little on the too energetic side but still a great dog. His coat is a little on the thin side. Near his shoulders and under arm you can see skin when he stretches. Not much fur on the belly either. Still has thick somewhat wavy hair on his back though. On the other had we bought a female from a breader who goes for English conformation. Very fury belly. Thick coat everywhere.

You covered the intent of why I asked the question. The conversations I had heard in the past was that "pointy" was the result of overbreeding/inbreeding. I have been told several times and read some that "blocky" is the standard. To what degree of blockiness maybe a point of discussion for some. I think one measure of conforming to breed standard in all labs reguardless of color or shape must be that jackhammer happy tail

I would agree that it has little influence on ability. Personally I would attribute a lot of the dog's ability on the owners ability and possibly persistency