Speaking of laws

[hobbydog]

There is a little known and seldom enforced law in Minnesota that you should be aware of as it is being enforced more and more. That is the tagging requirement. Not only tagging but claiming possesion.

An example. Three of you go out in a boat. You have a good day and shoot a mixed bag limit of mallards, teal wigeon gadwalls and a couple pintails. You throw them all in a pile at the front of the boat and head to the boat ramp. At the boat rampis a USFWS officer. He asks "ok guys, who shot what"? In reallity there were several gang bangs and in general everyone shot a limit of 6 ducks. Nobody knows for sure exactly what duck belongs to whom. Next question..."who shot the pintails"? You need to have each persons ducks in separate piles. Otherwise it is pretty hard to show that you did not shoot 2 pintails. No party hunting when it comes to ducks. Don't think this can happen? I now require everyone in the blind to have a strap and after each shoot, all ducks are claimed. When you get your limit you are done. Yes, you can play games with who claims what after each volley but that will not get you in trouble like a pile of ducks in the bottom of the boat.

Second example: You take your ducks back to camp and hang them on the shed. Your 2 partners go off to hunt a few grouse. Officer Bob decides to stop in and asks to see your ducks. He sees 3 straps of ducks hanging and that is obviously over a limit for one person. You explain that each strap belongs to one of your hunting partners and they are off pursuing grouse. Some were shot the day before so even if they were there and you have over your daily limit but less than your possesion....how do you prove it. You need to tag your birds according to the regs. The DNR is more lenient than the USFWS (this is a Federal Regulation) but they are being pushed to start enforcing this law. Tag your birds, could save you a big hassle. I got off with a warning but it sure did not make my day.

[Riverratpete]

Sounds like a fella better sleep with their ducks also...just to be on the safe side.

[eyepatrol]

This is a law I haven't heard of. Too many times I've been out with 2 or 3 other guys, a flock comes in, we all unload, and we're not always sure who shot what because many times two or more guys will shoot at the same duck/goose. Then, on top of that, we do the "usual" put them in a pile, then at the end of the day, take them home and sort them out there. Knowing now, I'll be changing my ways (and make sure the others I hunt with do too) and bring some sort of tag along in our shellbox to mark who's birds are whose.

Thanks for the post!

bc

[lawdog]

hobbydog,

How exactly do you "tag" a duck. I'm aware of this law and you state it correctly from what I know, but I've always wondered how you "tag" a duck there are no site tags or anything else provided and I've not seen a definition of what "tagged" even means on a duck...

Thoughts?

[Willy]

Don't mean to be too negative and glad you pointed this out, but if the DNR starts giving tickets for not having ducks seperated, they will be in court fighting those tickets more than they are in the field. As long as you are within your legal limits, there is no way they can prove who shot what. I don't see how this can hold any water. I mean if you have three guys with and say you have 3 pintails, is the DNR gonna say: "well, you're closest to the duck pile, you shot all the ducks." I just don't think it will happen. If they did give anyone a ticket, they should have no problem getting out of it.

[hobbydog]

Quote:

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hobbydog,

How exactly do you "tag" a duck. I'm aware of this law and you state it correctly from what I know, but I've always wondered how you "tag" a duck there are no site tags or anything else provided and I've not seen a definition of what "tagged" even means on a duck...

Thoughts?

---

This is the federal law wording....

Tagging

No person shall give, put or leave any migratory game birds at any

place or in the custody of another person unless the birds are tagged

by the hunter with the following information: a) hunter’s signature;

hunter’s address; c) total number of birds involved, by species; and d)

dates such birds were killed.

Tagging is required if the birds are being transported by another

person for the hunter, or if the birds have been left for cleaning, storage

(including temporary storage), shipment, or taxidermy services.

What I have done is make up a form on the computer and put it in a plastic sleeve. Everyone fills it out after the days hunt and hangs it with their strap. I also put a column in for disposition...such as eaten, gifted and on what date. Same way for gifting. If I give some to my relatives or the guy down the road from the cabin, I fill out a form with the required info. It is a bit of a pain doing the paper work after a days hunt but after the procto exam from officer Bob for having 3 pintails (3 hunters) after sveral days of hunting and a warning ticket for not having them tagged, it is a small step to take.

Like I said, this is a Federal regulation and since Minnesota has a strong tradition of party hunting it has not been enforced very often. Officer Bob explained that the MN DNR is coming under pressure to enforce this reg....which he did.

[Riverratpete]

Sounds to me like Officer Bob need to get a life and quit nit picking law abiding people. (Yeah, he's winning friends and influencing people) Beware the rightous holier than thou group/persons, been my experience that their normally hiding something. Funny how he would than say that "He's" under pressure from the feds to enforce the law when I bet he's just blaming someone else for him wanting to make a name for himself. Sorry to sound so negative but man it gets under my skin to hear about these Nazi tactics where everyone is guilty and you'd better CYA yourself to death..pretty much takes the fun out of things when your more worried about staying out of trouble than enjoying yur surroundings and the experience.

[hobbydog]

Quote:

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Don't mean to be too negative and glad you pointed this out, but if the DNR starts giving tickets for not having ducks seperated, they will be in court fighting those tickets more than they are in the field. As long as you are within your legal limits, there is no way they can prove who shot what. I don't see how this can hold any water. I mean if you have three guys with and say you have 3 pintails, is the DNR gonna say: "well, you're closest to the duck pile, you shot all the ducks." I just don't think it will happen. If they did give anyone a ticket, they should have no problem getting out of it.

---

I only received a warning ticket and had I gotten a real ticket I would have fought it even though it would have cost more to fight it than pay it. My cabin is 7 hours from home and I would have had to drive to Roseau to fight the ticket. This was the second year in a row the same CO checked us. The first time was when we came off the remote swamp we were in. Had 15 ducks for 3 of us and a limit of geese. We got the lecture about separating our birds but no ticket. The following year same CO checked us at the truck as we were loading up. He asked how many we had at the cabin, So I told him what I thought was there. we were well within the possesion limit. Later he stops in and I was the only one there at the time and the ducks were not separated.....and I had one more duck than what I had said earlier.....still 10 ducks under the possesion limit. The other guys showed up and we sorted all the ducks out as to who shot what (the best we could)after a search of the cabin, including the refridgerator and a look around the yard and questioning each of us separately including my freinds 14 year old son he wrote the warning ticket for not having the ducks tagged. We had 3 pintails and he was sure one of us had shot 2 of them in one day. It was a good 1 hour shakedown, and by the time he was gone and we had the birds tagged, the venison loin roast in the oven was very well done. To say the least it raised my blood pressure a bit. So....now I fill out the paperwork so officer Bob can do his check and be on his way.

[Rost]

The warden would have to be a complete jerk to enforce that one.

Is that the law for fish too? Once you personally catch 6 walleyes you are done? You have to sit in the boat and watch your buddy fish until he gets his? So that is why my boat has two livewells

[Willy]

Yes he would. I would hope that most Wardens out there aren't that nitpicky. Most of the ones I have talked are good (Contact US Regarding This Word). It's just sometimes, a person gets power, they use it just because they can.

[Buckslayer]

No offense Hobbydog, but when I start doing paperwork after I shoot a limit of birds, I'm done with this sport.....feels too much like being back in the office. I thought I hunted on the weekends to get away from work?

[Riverratpete]

Hobbydog, sounds like this CO's a jerk...too bad. I've always had pretty good experiences with CO's as long as everyone is cordial and polite, even had one in the family for a time, hopefully this young man or older gentleman will figure it out that being a hard a%$# isn't going to help them do their job, probably make it harder.

[Sartell Angler]

thanks for the post Hobbydog...I'm gonna make sure that our group is more consciencious of what you have mentioned.

SA/wdw

[USPENAMC]

that CO might be that and much more but without a

doubt he is enforcing the law as much as we would like to complain because of the extra work and all we have to do we should be Praising this CO for actually doing his job. just because others dont enforce it doestn mean he is wrong. sometimes going against the grain and doing what [PoorWordUsage]es other people off is the RIGHT thing to do regardless.

[Riverratpete]

I'm not advocating the CO's NOT enforce the laws...thats their job and we pay them good money to do it..My point is that they don't need to go on "fishing expeditions" and when they can't find anything they start going for very vague laws (I've done ALOT of inspections for the gov, I know how the game works).Just doing things to pi*^ people off and acting like theres a "commie" under every bed in my opinion doesn't get you nearly as far as a little civility and politeness.

[Nova]

Amen to that, like Buckslayer said, when it comes down to doing paperwork just to hunt that will be the end for a lot of us. Someone needs to look at this law. You can party hunt deer, but you can't ducks???? I know it's the law and have known it for a long time, but I think it is easier to tell who shot a deer versus who out of the party shot each duck. Insane rule making by our legislayure.

[LABS4ME]

I think everyone is getting to whipped up over this law... When we hunt, we do keep our ducks and geese seperate, and it takes no extra effort to do this. When we clean them and put them in a cooler at the end of the day (out of state), we tape a sheet to the top and list each hunters bag, date and license # to make sure that NO ONE is caught "being over their possession limit". Again almost zero effort. Sometimes all the ducks for four-six hunters are in one truck.

The deer analogy doesn't hold up as you still end up tagging each deer even if it was shot party hunting. Also deer are regulated by the state as opposed to the feds because they DO NOT migrate, and each state has different regs. Examples... Some don't allow party hunting, you must tag the animal you shot and then you are done, some only require tagging and not registration etc. etc.. The feds will almost always be stricter in the rules they make. I would almost guarantee you, you will never have an incident where a CO tags you for party hunting ducks, unless you were down to your last bird(s) and he sees/hears multiple guns banging away to drop the final bird(s), but it outnumbers the number of ducks needed X number of hunters that needed to fill their limit. Again it's easy, "claim" the birds as they are retrieved, even if you think you both hit it, one guy claims it for his pile. When you have your individual limit, do not get tempted to keep firing away at birds.

Years ago coming back from the pheasant opener in Iowa, we had to go through a game check that they set-up before the border. I had all the pheasants for both trucks in one large cooler, But... I had a "tag" taped to the top showing everyones bag, name and license number, the CO just about fell over! He said that although they were not ticketing guys for this, they had written out several warnings for "over possession" limit. We went through that game check in I'd bet record time... most guys were unpacking guns, luggage etc. we showed them our license and were on our way. It felt great to get the "atta boys" from the CO for what we did. The amount of time all the other trucks were slowed down far outweighed the 2 minutes it took for each of us to fill out the info on the "tag".

I think we all like to complain about laws that we feel are unnecassary or don't conform to what we want... the speed limit is a great example... who wouldn't (doesn't) want to drive faster than the limit, but then we get torqued when they write us up for 63 in a 55 and say it's B.S.! "I was only going 8 miles an hour over, they just needed to fill a quota" is usually the argument we'll hear. We broke the law and have to accept the penalty, it's a conscious decision we made and we should accept the consequences if they arrive.

I agree with Hobbydog, it so easy to comply with the rule(s), that I wouldn't even waste my time arguing it. You may go your whole life without being tagged, but if you are, I'm sure there'll be plenty of belly aching that 'it is a "B.S." ticket, and why don't they go tag someone else for doing something really wrong', but plain and simple in the language as the law is written now, you violated! We don't get to pick and choose which laws we honor and which we don't. If you decide not to abide by a law for convenience, don't complain about being pinched if and when it happens. Go ahead and fire away if you don't agree, but the arguments I've heard aren't enough of a reason to say you shouldn't do it and if it's gonna be enforced you'll quit the game...

Good Luck!

Ken

[hobbydog]

I agree with you Labs. One of the points I was trying to make is you could head off a lot of hassle by showing you know what the law says. Any CO or law enforcement officer does profiling. They see someone who knows the letter of the law and they will probably stop there. In my case I had several things going against me. The first time I was checked we were hunting a remote area/good hunting and we had opportunity to break the law. The second issue was that we has a canoe and decoys on a remote area of the WMA and it was virtually impossible to drag it all in for that mornings hunt. They knew we probably had left equipment over night on a WMA. When asked, I admitted that right away as I had verbal permission from the WMA manager to do so and had hunted the same pothole for over 20 years. He wrote the ticket and I had no problem with that, shame on me for not getting a conditional use permit from the manager. I now make the phone call each year and it is in the mail the next day. If we would have had our ducks in separate piles and had a CUP to leave stuff on the WMA I think I would have never seen them again.

Like I said in the first post. Now I just make a form on the computer and fill it out at the end of the day. It also serves as a nice log to save and to record success over the years.

[jerk bait]

I think every sportsman tries to adhere to the law to the best of his ability. With that said it's almost impossible to comply or understand the letter of the law. If hunter,or a group, is within his limit I believe they are trying to stay within the rules. I do believe part of a CO's job is educating the public on the more technical part of the game laws. I think at almost every stop a CO can find something "illegal" if they look hard or long enough.If a police officer did some of the things CO's have been known to do there be a huge back log of harassment cases in court. Every person of authority has the leeway to write warnings thats where the education element comes in. There are many "Barney Fifes" out there who take things to the extreme. They need to use commen sense in situations. I'll tell you a short story that happened to me. A friend and I had taken our kids ,ages 7-13, duck hunting. Only the older kids were hunting. We shot one duck. A co stopped us on the way out. He did all the usual checks, licenses, plugs in guns etc. Everything passed with flying colors. Until he checked in the back of the pickup topper and saw one of the kids BB guns in there. He asked me why that "firearm" was not cased. I said its a BB gun plus it's in the box of my pickup. He said it doesn't matter where it is it still needs to be cased. He went on to say that a $25 case could save you a $75 ticket. By this time my blood pressure is rising. My 7 year old asked what he did wrong. I told him nothing. He wrote me a warning for an uncased firearm. Does that get recorded somewhere?

[Sartell Angler]

jerk bait- yes I believe that it will be recorded and will show up on your profile the next time the CO runs your info...that is bogus--a BB gun? talk about a technicality.

SA/wdw

[magnumthunder]

It's not a firearm! A firearm uses fire to move a projectile. However do not get caught shooting a polish canon or potatoe bazoka in the city limits because that is a firearm. a friend of mine got a ticket for discharging a firearm within the city limits for that!

[jerk bait]

I assumed as much. I thought that a gun didn't need to be cased if it was in the trunk of a vehicle I assume the the box of my pickup would be the same as a trunk.And yes like a daisy not even a pump up pellet gun. I suppose you could shoot your eye with like Ralph on the xmas story was warned. I highly doubt you could poach any game with it though. I suppose that if and when I'm pulled over again that will be a black mark to the next CO and he'll really put the fine tooth comb to use. SUCKS

[tealitup]

I do belive that if you have a weapon it has to be cased, however, if a case is not available you must have it in the rear most portion of the vehicle.

A B.B. gun located in the back of a pickup would be legal.

[jerk bait]

Thats what I told the CO . I knew the law it didn't seem to matter to him. That's why I was wondering if warnings went on file. If it was a ticket and a fine I would have went to court and fought it.

[Powerstroke]

tealitup you are incorrect. According to the letter of the law, the back of a pickup with a topper or tonneau cover is not a leagal trunk.

Also, when you taught your son firearms safety did you teach him to respect all firearms the same whether he's holding a BB gun or the 12gauge or the .308. I odn't think you want to be shot by any of them. The first rule of firearms safety is to treat all firearms as weapons and respect them as such. I have killed squirrels, rabbits and birds with a BB gun. I also shot myself in the hand when I was holding my hand over the muzzle.

Your 7yr old did nothing wrong, you did. You tell him daddy didn't buy the $5 sock to cover the BB gun.

A "case" must be something designed explicitly for containing a firearm (or bow). That doesn't mean toolboxes in your pickup, secret drawers under the seat (except the one that is a gun case) or your suitcase.

These "technicalities" are there not so a CO can nit-pick joe schmoe into finding a violation. Its to help them prosecute some A-hole in court. My bro-in-law is a CO and so is a friend of mine. They have lost cases in court because the "letter of the law" worked FOR the criminal, not the officer. SO when you go to court you may not know the letter of the law, but your lawyer will and if the CO didn't enforce the laws right some illegal, poaching low-life will go free on a "technicality".

Can you spot a poacher from a mile away? Has anyone ever told you to your face that they had 60 walleyes in the cooler? Probably not. SO sometimes you need to ask some questions and do a little investigating.

When I go to Canada I have to mark all of MY fish since there are slot limits and I better know how many fish I have over the slot limit.

When I tag a deer I better know what day it is and what tag I'm gonna use.

Are you really gonna give up hunting for a whole day cause you gotta count how many ducks in your boat? You already better know how to identify them from the air. You knew you already shot a pintail so whats so hard about making sure you have the one thats for you?

Week after week you can read the Outdoor News section on Cuffs and Collars and read about how many citations are given. Its hard to believe that there are more law abiding citizens than illegal ones. Those are the ones that are enforeced.

I was at a WMA yesterday and there were 4 guys squirrel hunting in full camo. I called the CO and he said he couldn't come down, but write down the plate #'s. As far as I'm concerned that was important to me, but he was busy with something bigger. Is it fair? NO, is it the way it is? Yep. We don't pay these guys "good money". I feel they do more to keep ducks in MN that the wildlife managers, bureaucrats and politicians combined.

Give them 5 mins to prove you've got nothing to hide. If you don't know the laws then don't hunt. They come in several languages in case you don't know plain english.