Tournament Hunting?

[Ray Esboldt]

On a rare off day (mandated by the wife), I'm watching this show on FSN called Tournament Hunting. Basically it's two guys and a dog sprinting through a field to kill 6 planted birds in 5 minutes. What a horrible concept. I didn't see anyone get shot, but you have hunters and a dog in dead-red sprint with loaded shotguns. Talk about not promoting gun safety.

Has anyone else viewed this show and been equally as disturbed as myself?

[riverrat56]

Yes I have seen it, I was thinking of posting something about how disturbing it is today buy you beat me to it.

There is no real hunting involved, the same thing could be accomplished by trap shooting or skeet or w/e. Its sad when you need to physically kick the bird to make it get up.

Reminds me of the show Dream Season on The Outdoor Channel, 4 teams had to video tape deer hunts to win a contract for an outdoor show, it was making the hunt a secondary thing and the money and fame more important.

[BDR]

I totally agree Ray. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. I actually called my 13 year old son into the room and had him list numerous safety and ethical problems with what he was seeing.

[setterguy]

Anyone ever seen the pheasant championships at the Horse and Hunt club? Basically the same thing. Speed has no place in hunting as far as I'm concerned. As few times as I get to get out, the last thing I want to do is limit out in 5 minutes.

[captkev]

I know everyone is entitled to an opinion, and belive me I'll point out a safety issue to anyone, and I've particapated in a few dog trials before, there is'nt suposed to be any running or the judge will dock points or even disqualify a team for running, or at least that's how its supposed to work. I did'nt see the TV program so I can't make the call there...But the last thing I would expect from a fellow hunter is the bashing of another mans sport, that just gives the ANTI'S something else to throw in our faces...If its a safety issue then fine! let it be that. There is good and bad in all, and its too bad others set the standard for the sport. Dont criticise just be safe.

Have you personally seen the size of a typical feild for dog trials??? my GSP can cover that much ground in half that time if the conditions are right (wind,moisture, sent conditions)

A very good friend once told me "Leggs Kill Birds"...Meaning: The more ground you cover, the more birds you'll see.

Hope nobody gets me wrong, but please don't be to quick to judge a fello hunter, but do HELP them with their mistakes, point out safety issues when need be.

[Ray Esboldt]

Dude,

This show ain't about hunting. Just watch it, and you'll see. I've broke into a fast walk to keep up with a dog, but this show is guys sprinting after a dog. This is not hunting, and it's stuff that is great fuel for the Antis.

This is almost as dumb as when the B.A.S.S. guys had the boat competition (race) as part of their tournaments. A very bad example.

[metrojoe]

I've seen a similar show where it was just one hunter with his dog and they had 5 minutes(might have been less) to flush and shoot 3 birds. The hunters were (Contact US Regarding This Word) near running behind thier dogs.

I think they really need to rethink the timed portion of the competition. I didn't really pay attention to how they were scored but it was obvious time weighed heavy in points.

I've only seen it the one time. Does anyone know the name of the show? or who the major sponcers are?

[brittman]

These events are not hunting. It was devised by a nitch group of hunting preserves to boost business. Limits? No limit at a preserve.

Comment on the legs - more ground you cover comment. I agree you must be in the field to shoot wild birds, but often you can walk the same place multiple times and get birds (pheasants) up each time.

A few years ago - my dog and I were hunting a WMA on a weekday. It is one of the hardest hit in MN. Anyway we walked the same 40 acre corner up and back and up and back - four passes - every pass put up birds. There was about 3 - 4 inches of snow cover - the tracks in the snow said more were still there - but how many times will the mind let you walk the same cover over and over ......... Two roosters and it was time to go home anyway.

Pace is important and somedays a fast pace works, the next - a slower methodical pace may work best.

[Riverratpete]

I have to agree with Ray on this one...bad imagery if nothing else, gives the anti's more stuff to moan about (like they don't whine enough about nothing)makes us all look like a bunch of folks just running around killing stuff. I used to love watching the outdoor hunting shows but the last couple years they have really turned me off because they are nothing but one big advetisment for equipment/services..they should be calling them infomercials not shows. Occassionally they'll give you good pointers as a hook but other than that its just selling stuff. got beter things to do with my time like being out there in the game whether it's fishing or hunting.

[pheasant maniac]

i tend to diagree, i am a judge for this show and running is not alowed, you can walk as fast as possible but one foot has to be on the ground at all times. i also judge for the us open that the horse and hunt puts on, now that competition lets you run and i do not think that is right, i think they should change it to more how well the dog and the handler comunicates together. i do agree that gun safty should be first and to never run with a loaded gun.

but as far as the tv show goes they are by far more safe than ever, and i will be judging one in nov.

just my two cents worth.

[gspman]

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... But the last thing I would expect from a fellow hunter is the bashing of another mans sport ...

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I can't stand it when I read/hear this type of comment. Are you suggesting we just let anything go because someone thinks it's a sport or sporting? It is our duty to police ourselves and call others out when what they are doing is not right.

Also tournament hunting is not a dog trial. It has nothing to do with field trials.

That show has taken the run and gun tournament to the extreme. It is not safe and is not something youngsters, ie. our future, should be watching because they'll think that's the way it's supposed to be done. Monkey see/monkey do.

Years ago I volunteered to help with "security" at the US Open Phez Championship. At that time most of the hunters were what I would consider safe. They usually walked at a fast yet safe pace. Not the border line stiff legged run/walk you see on TV. I did have one incident that really concerned me though, one morning a team from Michigan showed up still drunk from the night before. Unfortunately the "not using good judgement" judge still let them hunt. That really bothered me. There also was more than one occasion where the security tent was hit with pellets. While run and gun tournaments are not for me at that time it wasn't what I'd call unsafe except for a few incidents. Maybe things changed in the last 10-12 years though.

The thing that really bothered me about it is that the people that won would breed their dogs and charge an obnoxious amount of money for pups advertizing their dog as a great champion. It was as if this was a true test of a dog's skills. It is not. These dogs run maybe 10 minutes at time. And at that time the dog could be entered any number of times. Many pointers would catch birds. There were many dogs/hunters that did quite well but a dog did not have to be a great to do well and I saw many that did well that I would not feed.

gspman

[captkev]

I think my wording may have been off a little, but once again SAFETY FIRST! if running was allowed then SHAME on everyone involved in letting a show like that air. I am for teaching the next generation a safe and ETHICAL way to hunt.

However I will not Bad mouth someone behind their back.

If you have a problem with what you were viewing, then contact the proper people and let them know...If you think it was'nt hunting then fine, I did'nt see it, so I can't say. If someone feels B.A.S.S. is a boat race, Then fine, I don't fish for bass and I don't watch the show, so I don't care. However if it were a concern on a lake I was fishing and a safety issue I would contact the right people about it.

Let me ask a question...Have any of you ever served in the ARMED FORCES?...If so how many of you have RAN with a gun before?

Safety first...I would run with anyone who has served if they had the proper training. Would I do it in the Feild out hunting...? probably not.

Leggs do kill birds, but sometimes just standing there will to.

[Bushwacker]

I happened to catch the show this weekend also, also a mandated "Off" weekend by my wife before goose hunting starts up. This show is a terrible representation of "hunting" It is more running and killing. The contestants are even disturbing. There was one fellow on there that kept referring to himself in the 3rd person about how south, east, west and north all go through him. It reminded me of the WWF or whatever it is now. I see a lot of ammo for the anti groups from this show. Half of the birds that I saw where caught in the dogs mouth and never even flushed.

[Ray Esboldt]

CaptainKev,

Hunting is not war. This show is a horrible representative of our sport. Try to find it next weekend, I think you'll agree.

There's no behind the back bad-mouthing here. If any of you participants are reading this, I think you boys are a wee bit stupid for participating in this stuff. And, if you think I'm hiding behind the Internet, I'll provide directions to my house to explain this to you in person.

[rundrave]

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Have any of you ever served in the ARMED FORCES?...If so how many of you have RAN with a gun before?

Safety first...I would run with anyone who has served if they had the proper training. Would I do it in the Feild out hunting...? probably not.

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by far one of the worst analogies I have ever heard.

Safety first?....Tell me one place where it would be safe to run with a gun, outside of a field. I dont care how trained you are, in a field, or not, its not safe.

I think its better to go slow and take your time, its very easy to walk over birds, only to see them get up behind you. I always feel, go slow take your time, they can hear you coming from far away, go slow, get them nervous, they will flush.

As far as this show goes, I think I saw one, but they didnt shoot at the birds, they just had to flush them. I laughed watching a guy, with a fake cap gun, power walking through grass. If they could only see how foolish they look.

[captkev]

I think some are not getting what I am saying. And the question was, If you ever served...have you ever ran with a gun...? I did'nt say that I was trained to run with a firearm or that it was safe. I did say I would run with someone who has served, but probably not in the feild.(or where ever it involved running with a gun)

What I'm trying to get accrosed here is that...well... If someone is in your back yard or on your hunting ground doing something unsafe, then let them know about it. But if someone is on their private property playing Russian Roulet with others and a few birds throwen in for kicks, so be it.

what do I care as long as it is'nt affecting what and where I'm going to be.

I don't like what the "NEW" sport of dog trials are about in some cases, But done right and judged properly they can be fun and enjoyable.

It makes me mad to think that one group or the way TV/Media teliveses a bad program, then everyone gets the bad name for it.

Just because some people like to over harvest fish and break leagal limmits, dosent make me automatialy assume that everyone is breaking the law. Same goes for dog trials!

And it was a trick question, just to see the responce, If you did'nt allready catch that.

[LabCrazy]

I think that all of you need to step back a minute and check all the things that are involved in a event like this. What the TV show presents is dogs finding a predertimed number of birds in a 10-12 acre field. Which in one of the shows it tells the viewers that hunters do not have any idea where birds are to be planted. It is the job of the huntersand his dog to try and find the birds in the shortest amount of time in order to win. I do not agree with any running at these events and some of the hunters are moving in a very questionable manner with thier firearms that I do not agree with. But in the same respect a hunter can find the birds in a short amount of time with the use of a little strategy with out running. ANYONE can do the same with thier dogs, maybe not at first but with a little of filed experience it can be accomplished by all. This type of trialing is more in lines with the type of REAL hunting that I do with my dogs during the actual hunting season and it adds me into the elements where mistakes can be made by missing birds. I know that if any person comes to watch an event in person they will see that this is a good sport to be involved in. Yes I did say sport, Just in the same fashion hunting has become a sport during the regular fall hunting season.

As far as this being event that was started by preserves to sell more birds you are sadly mistaken. The individual that owns the Tournament Hunter Television does not own a preserve or a game farm that raises birds for sale. This indvidual actully recently aquired an exsisting organization from a group. The true founder is now walking the great hunting grounds and thought of this idea in the middle 90's. Again he did not own a preserve or raise birds he just wanted a way to meet other people through out the country that had an incredible love for their dogs and want to hunt in a tournament trial type situation.

This type fo dog trialing has grown over the years and has had many great shows produced. The previous show were called the National Bird Dog challenge Association and Pointers,Flushers, and retrievers too. These were the begining shows. During those beginning years the times that came off a 20 minute run were in the neighborhood of 12 -15 minutes per run. If a person got a 10 minute or less run they were the talk of the countryside. As people played and trained harder with their dogs the times began to get faster and it was not due to running through the field with thier guns but becasue they could get their dogs to cover ground more effiently and hunters became better shots.

There are 4 main orgainzations that run these types of events. National bird Dog Association, National Upland Classic Series, Pheasant Hunters Unlimited, and North American tournament Hunter Assoication. It would be wise for you to check out these organizations before saying that this is a bad event and does not truely test a dog. It does test a dog. I have been told by friends in the midwest that they have professional trainers tell them that some AKC field trial dogs would not do well at our game in the same fashion that we would not do well in theirs. He alsoo has sadi that very one has their game and that this si the game he has chosen to play, but does not knock field trial where every one know within a few feet where their birds are. That friend of mine up in the midwet also have sadi that they have talked to AKc about these events and one of the major reason that AKC will not saction these types of dog trials is that not all dogs that compete are purbreds.

As far a worrying about the anti's I think if you go to a retirver field trial you will see birds killed all the time with no chance of escape. where in these evnts the birds has a cahnce to get away and live.

Yes there are alot of caght birds in this game, becasue guys are looking for fast and very agressive birds dogs. I know that my labs have caught more wild birds than a person can shake a stick at.

Running with a gun is bad, but before you past judgement on the game you should try it once and see if it is as easy as it looks!

[Ray Esboldt]

Labcrazy,

No one said it was easy, I never said it wasn't a test of skill for man and dog, but most of us agree it's a bad example of safe firearm handling. If this is how you hunt, I wouldn't want to be around you.

If this is your sport, fine with me. I just think it is a rather poor representation of hunting.

[pheasant maniac]

thanks lab crazy our sport does have it's faults but i do beleive the tv show in no way promotes running, yes at times i think the judge should be warning the hunter, but it is alot better than some of the other events that running is alowed. i to know the owners of that program and they are very passonate about the game.

[brittman]

These competitions are NOT HUNTING. Let's find another word for it.

[rundrave]

Labcrazy, I do respect your opinions, sounds like you have a passion for this specific event. I by no means feel that it shouldnt be allowed, or not considered a sport, if it makes you and your dog happy, and others, and you enjoy doing it so be it.

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But in the same respect a hunter can find the birds in a short amount of time with the use of a little strategy with out running. ANYONE can do the same with thier dogs, maybe not at first but with a little of field experience it can be accomplished by all. This type of trialing is more in lines with the type of REAL hunting that I do with my dogs during the actual hunting season and it adds me into the elements where mistakes can be made by missing birds.

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If this is the style of "REAL" hunting you do, I would tend to disagree. In my opinion, "REAL" hunting as you put it, is not a race for me to get my 3 roosters. I dont measure my day of success based on how fast I got my limit. I could care less if I get my limit or not, or if took me 15 minutes or a full day. "REAL" hunting to me, is spending a day with my friends, family, and dogs out in the fields, enjoying the outdoors. Why rush it?

If we ran our dogs as fast as we could until we got our limit of birds, they would probably be dead. Especially with the past few pheasant openers here in SD where it got 80+ degrees.

Its sure is an interesting topic, I will look into your request, and considering looking at the event in a different perspective.

[captkev]

Thank you LabCrazy!

I think this topic has changed from a Poor quality TV show, to how many people think hunting on shooting preserves and holding dog trials is bad. It started by pointing out how many safety problems the youth are seeing.

I wish there was a way I could have every one who thinks this is a bad sport, goto one of them, and when there is an issue about safety, send a youngster up to the judge to point it out. If people would voice their opinions to the officals or even send them a letter. and start with the TV show, let them know how you feel. MAYBE we cold bring back a sport that it once was. And by no-means am I saying all of these events are the same. But the one's that are turning this sport of DOG and HUNTER skill into something it should'nt be, SHAME on them for makeing all other enents look bad. Trust me, not all of them are the same. Some of them are held with the highest interest in the dog work itself, time limits are set, but for some, its all about seeing a young dog work a feild with grace and beuty, the old dog findind birds with sutch skill one would never think possable. with out these events I would'nt have been able to enjoy watching and learning so much from so many others, in the short ammount of time that I've been able to.

To all of the great sportsman and their dogs I have had the pleasure to enjoy watching in the feild... THANK YOU!

And to all of the ones who made this sport look bad to others, May your guns rust!

[metrojoe]

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I think this topic has changed from a Poor quality TV show, to how many people think hunting on shooting preserves and holding dog trials is bad. It started by pointing out how many safety problems the youth are seeing.

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I think you've gotten off topic.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't believe anyone thats posted here is saying shooting preserves and dog trials are bad. My issue and apparently others are also concerned with the type of trials where the winner needs the fasted time to win or only allowing a few minutes to compete.

[captkev]

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These events are not hunting. It was devised by a nitch group of hunting preserves to boost business. Limits? No limit at a preserve.

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I Don't think so!

[metrojoe]

I still think the main issue was the unsafe practices being displayed in this style of competition.

My only comment was maybe there shouldn't be so much emphasis on the timed portion of the competition.