Quality Deer Management

[lawdog]

Good discussion, I tried to post here earlier but my computer had issues...

There are a couple things I'd like to add or comment on as I generally support QDM type hunting and the ideas behind it.

First, I think the all-season license has really allowed me to be better at this and be a much better deer hunter. I've only shot good shooter bucks and antlerless deer since having that option, and have passed up quite a few little bucks. That's a good option that the DNR provided us. Prior to that, I was stuck with the 4a season for two days, or I could abandon my traditional hunting party to muzzleload. I really think that this area (zone 4) will never be able to see much voluntary implementation until the DNR gets rid of 2 or 4 day season options here. You just can't expect hunters to pass up a deer when you only have 2 days to get one. That's the first thing that needs to change.

As to the objections to QDM, I really don't get it. The principle in QDM of shooting does is real consistent with what the DNR is already doing with all the extra tags and their attempts at reducing the herd, and really nobody ever argues with improving habitat, so it comes down to really just passing on little baby bucks. So, what's the fascination with killing a spike or a fork??? That's all that you are probably giving up and in a year or two you'll be able to shoot bigger better deer instead. How is this bad? The true monster trophies will still be elusive and they will still require work, so don't give me the talk line that its just about lazy hunters wanting trophies, that's not it, I say in reality the objections are just lazy hunters wanting spikes and forks so they can brag about "getting their buck".

Pistelero, go ahead shoot your does, that's not anti QDM... In fact, in a sense its doing QDM (although you don't need to forego bucks altogether). The rest of you, please explain what's so bad about it??? And yes I realize its telling you what you can and can't shoot, but big deal! Get over it, after all, what's a minimum three inch polished horn, but a minimum size limitation already???

[WB make the CUT]

Unless the dates of the Firearms season change, we will all be talking about QDM for a long time.

[BLACKJACK]

WB, I agree, the one change that would help immensely to save bucks would be to move the season back out of the rut, all the bucks are acting crazy, moving around alot and consequently getting shot.

lawdog, I don't understand your point about the 3" of polished horn?? If a 4 point minimum per side was implemented, a lot of 1 1/2 year old bucks would still be shot because in MN the nutrition is good enough where a lot of 1 1/2 year old bucks have racks with 8 points. And I still maintain, if you want a big buck, go spent the time being a HUNTER and shoot one. I don't think a small, vocal minority should set the deer hunting regulations for the majority of deer hunters that think that any deer is a trophy.

This has been a good thread from the stand point that you get to hear others people opinions and it has me thinking about 'what do I consider to be a trophy deer'? I spent a lot of road time this weekend and I had plenty of time to think and here is what I concluded.

I remember when a doe permit was treasured because it got to be a long season when you were hunting only bucks. I also remember 15 years ago when I started bow hunting, it took me five years before I even got a deer, finally I got better at stand placement and spent more time in the stand and decided that any deer that didn't have spots was going down because they're darn hard to get with a bow. I spent enough time in a stand to realize that any deer - doe, small buck, or big buck - that you get with a bow is a trophy. I still feel that way. Only 25% of the archery hunters are successful. Only 50% of the gun hunters are successful. To the ones that aren't successful, any deer is a trophy. If you tell someone that is a gun hunter only that you shot a buck -big or small - with your bow, they realize that you're done something that most deer hunters haven't done.

To the average hunter, any deer is a trophy. I think the people on this forum are among the elite deer hunters, they spend more time hunting, they hunt multiple zones and weapons, etc, but they're also in the minority, and the minority, even a vocal minority, shouldn't dictate the deer hunting rules for the majority.

I've shot a number of small bucks (and a couple of big ones) and saved the antlers from all of them. Recently I was looking them all over and they brought back good memories. Heres the one with 8 inch spikes that I shot when it was -5 and the wind was howling and I was tempted to stay in bed. Heres the small 8 that I watched bed down in a CRP field, stalked and shot, then drug half way across an 80. Heres the buck I shot across the bridge of the nose and he somersaulted a$$ over teakettle. My point is that they all bring back memories and are trophies.

Before the talk about QDM came along the most common phrase in bowhunting was "you can't shoot a big deer if you shoot the first small buck that comes along". Thats still my philosophy, and someday when my goal is a big buck, that what I'll do. Big bucks are out there, I see them every week in the Outdoor news, I jump them occaisionally pheasant hunting, when I want one bad enough, I'll put in the necessary time hunting them. I won't expect the DNR to legislate big bucks for me by requiring QDM. When I do get one, if thats my goal, it will really mean something to me because I've put in the necessary time.

This thread also got me thinking about my bow hunting the last several years and what I've saw and what I like about bow hunting. Besides nature and the solitude, I also like to see deer. In the area of central MN that I hunt, I can't say I see lots and lots of deer. They're around but I go lots of hunts without seeing any, and the most I've ever had near my stand was 5 deer. So it got me thinking, if I like to see deer, why am I shooting does? Does reproduce. If four does are shot off my land, thats roughly ten deer (4 does plus 6 offspring) that won't be around next year. If four bucks are shot, thats only four deer that won't be around next year. Mmmmm, makes you think. If I want to see more deer, maybe I should be shooting the bucks instead of the does.... In agricultural land, winter food generally isn't a problem, so I'm not worried about too many deer degrading the habitat.

I know I'll get blasted for this post, but I had plenty of thinking time this weekend and thought I'd put it out here.

Bottom line, any deer is trophy.

[lawdog]

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lawdog, I don't understand your point about the 3" of polished horn??

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My only point is that most of the people who argue against QDM do so based on the weak (that's giving it too much credit in my opinion) argument that no one should tell them what they can and can't shoot. The reality is that we are all told what we can and can't shoot already and we are all having to follow someone's rules. The "you can't tell me what to do" argument could be used to support hunting over bait or chasing them with dogs or shooting them in a spotlight, after all, "who are we to tell them they can't do that???" Regardless of whether or not someone is for or against something, that argument just doesn't mean anything.

By the way, I've also got all the racks I've tagged and kept all that I could (its tough with party hunting to have them all or else I would...). And I too think they are all trophies and the anterless deer I've taken I've been very proud to have as well. I don't really see that as the issue though. I also agree that there are lots of areas where we probably don't need to shoot more does, as the DNR is already managing does and we shoot a good number in MN. That's in my opinion one thing that would make implementing QDM simpler here, not worse. In places where they have implemented it and there hasn't been a tradition of shooting does, look how much bigger the change is...

[Pistolero]

I’ve been checking the hunting regulations in states that have Antler Point Restrictions to see how it is handled. Does anyone know which states have the plan in operation? I know of Missouri and Arkansas. Any other states?

[Stratosman]

Indeed this is a very interesting topic, there have been many good points made throughout the posts, it seems there is a split between people that would be for and against regulated QDM. Although I have no solution or any idea how we would resolve this conflict, I do know that I, in general, am against having new regulations and laws continuosly imposed on us, whether it be hunting or everyday life. Sure some are for the better, some are purely idiotic, but no matter what, there will always be opposition to change. No different with DNR controlled QDM. I would love to shoot bigger bucks, I have started my own QDM on the property that I hunt, none of the neighbors do, neither does the party that I gun hunt with on the same land, and I guarantee that if I asked my 80 year old grandfather or that 12 year old on thier first deer hunt not to shoot a buck unless it has at least 10 scoreable points and a minimun 20" inside spread, I would get nothing but a blank stare.

I think that real proponents of QDM are already practicing that in thier own ways, by harvesting mature bucks as well as managing the doe herd, beyond that they are talking to adjacent landowners and working with them on practicing the same. At first I would have called myself a supporter of imposed QDM, but now, after alot of thought during countless hours sitting in a treestand, I am unsure as to where I stand on this issue, I think it would have it's ups and downs. What I do know is that I would not want the decision to be made by government employees, but rather through a voting system that is tabulated through the ELS licensing system we have, similar to the questions asked about hunting migratory birds. Maybe see what the hunting public wants? I would bet heavily on it being turned down. Mostly because of the point many have brought up already. 2 day season and I can't shoot what I want? My son's or daughters's first hunt and they have to pass that 2 year old 8 pointer? Tough decision.

If you look at some of the top producing whitetail areas as far as antler size or record entries are concerned, it is the landowners themselves that have QDM policies in place. There is no question as to it's effectiveness, it's a question of making the people that do not care about antler size, force them to harvest deer based on just that, they do not worship the antlers, they hunt to put meat on the table and you don't eat the antlers.

But on the flip side there are people that hunt for the antlers, me included. Sure I always try to fill my doe tag to put meat in the freezer beacause I love to eat venison. But I pass many small bucks each year in hopes of getting a pope and young quality animal, but that is my decision to make. I think that any deer taken with archery is the definition of a trophy to most, many hunters go years without harvesting a buck of any size. Sure, QDM might up the odds for harvesting a buck, and for surely up the odds of harvesting a mature animal, but all in all, I'm not sure that forcing it upon us is the right way to do it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there would be way too much oppositon to it. I like the idea of moving the season back till after the rut, I, especially as a bowhunter would love to see that. Look at Wisconsin, merely a stones throw away, no imposed QDM, rather voluntary landowner QDM along with a later gun season and the number of trophy bucks taken is astronomically higher than Minnesota. I have browsed a couple of web site forums based in Wisconsin and have looked at the pictures of deer taken on the hunting forums, literally 50 pictures on just one site that I visited of bucks that would have probably won this sites big bucks contest and a hundred more that would put most ours to shame. A party of 5 hunters with 5 bucks all grossing over 140"? Unreal. I am by no means a wildlife biologist, just a hunter with an opinion, but something is working over there. Then Iowa, Illinois, the Dakotas, all states that rank in the tops for mature animals killed, why? I don't have the answer. I just wish I owned 80 acres in Buffalo County.

When we strip hunting down to it's purest form it's still man against beast, the way it's been for eons. I'm not sure that glamorizing hunting is the way to make it more enjoyable. In the days of outfitters leasing up 1000's of acres of land making hunting impossible for many and to the "ranches" with 12' fences charging you $10,000.00 to guarantee you a 180" animal, to the (Contact US Regarding This Word) in Texas who wants internet hunting on his ranch. These area all stemmed from our infatuation of antlers, not from the enjoyment of the hunt itself, and in many ways it is ruining hunting and diluting the ingredients it takes to make an enjoyable hunt.

I see it watching the outdoor channel, 90 percent of deer hunting programs are shot on places where 90 percent of us will never have the opportunity to hunt. Ranches in Texas where $5,000.00 will only get you a 130" "management" deer. Game farms in Michigan where the CEO's can doll out $10,000 to kill a 200" whitetail all while in the comfort of a heated box blind complete with split log siding and all the comforts of home, in February. It makes me kind of ill when I think about it, that is not hunting, it is killing, it is all about the antler. And maybe I am part of the problem?

Sorry about going off on a tangent, but hunting is changing. Anti hunting groups, land development, leased hunting rights. Right now I would worry about our children and their children having an opportunity to follow in our hunting tradition.

[bigbucks]

Well put Stratosman, I believe I agree with everything you said. (A lot to digest, which isn't a complaint.)

[lawdog]

Stratos, I think most QDM set ups (and anything I would support) give kids with the youth licenses an exemption from the point restriction so they can shoot any deer they get the chance to shoot. I think it would be fair and reasonable to provide that same exemption for Senior citizen license holders.

Nobody is trying to destroy hunting opportunities by advocating for QDM type principles...

[Stratosman]

Lawdog,

I think that the exemption would have to mandatory, I agree with you for sure. And I do not think that QDM itself is destroying hunting, and like I said, I practice my own sort of the same thing. I was stating that mans infatuation has changed some aspects of the sport. Some of which I do not like to see. But how can I have my cake and eat it too?

This is one of the most interesting posts I have seen in a while however. That's why this site is so great, getting to read other hunters opinions on subjects like this.

[Pistolero]

I curious as to with plan you people would prefer:

1. Antler-point restriction

2. Move season out of rut

3. Earn-a-buck

4. Shorten buck season

5. Buck permit quota

All of which are a form of deer management and would help protect bucks.

I would prefer all but #1 because I do not want to count points.

[Mark Christianson]

Pistolero

I assume you are talking for strictly firearms hunting?

For Archery, I would not agree to any of those items.

For firearms, I would consider a few of them.

[jlm]

Great posts guys! One thing that is important for all of us to understand is that QDM is a voluntary program. I am a huge supporter of QDM, however, I do not like nor will I promote DNR mandated programs that put limits on all of us. The best part of QDM is that we can make our own rules based on the guidelines of QDM. If you want to allow kids to shoot small bucks, I say go for it. If someone makes an honest mistake, no big deal, just try do better next time. I do not like antler restrictions because of the problems that can create if it is a state mandated thing. I think the season is fine where it is as far as dates go. I do not like earn a buck because it puts limits on hunters, that is something we do not need. Plus, if we have an area with low doe numbers, this really creates a problems! QDM is a movement that is voluntary and appears to be something that is catching on with many hunters in many states. It is possible to have QDM without so many restrictions in my opinion. It is way too early to talk of state mandate as many hunters would oppose this. In the future, you never know.

[Pistolero]

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Pistolero

I assume you are talking for strictly firearms hunting?

For Archery, I would not agree to any of those items.

For firearms, I would consider a few of them.

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BLB,

I do not think that any of the selections would apply state wide, that it would be based on the deer population per area. The reason that I’m asking about these options is that they were the ones discussed in Missouri. The Antler-point restriction was selected, which does apply to archery and firearms in 29 counties. I found this information in there 2004 hunting regulations. Also of interest is what the restrictions are on each antler point is to be considered legal. I have also looked at the Arkansas 2004 hunting regulations. There is a lot of interesting information in the regulations from both states and worth taking a look.

[Dan Wood]

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curious as to with plan you people would prefer:

1. Antler-point restriction

2. Move season out of rut

3. Earn-a-buck

4. Shorten buck season

5. Buck permit quota

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I agree with BLB on limiting any type of restriction to gun and muzzleloader season only.

Being an archery hunter primarily, I'd love to see the gun season miss the rut. I do however think that would never work with people. That is the only time some of the really big bucks are seen. I'd rather have some of the giant bucks shot than dying of old age. Bowhunting just isn't effective at taking out these deer.

Earn a buck, I'm assuming your talking people need to shoot a doe before a buck. I hate that idea. I've hunted enough of the Metro archery hunts to know I don't like this idea. Being in the woods and knowing you can't shoot a big buck if he comes by just plain sucks IMO.

I like #1 and #5. I've seen what limiting buck tags can do for the population in ND. I don't feel the length of the season will have much effect on QDM. The small bucks will still get shot.

[lawdog]

1. I don't have a problem with but it needs to be workable. I think there are other states beside the two your discuss that have done this, wish I could remember where...PA maybe??? I know there are a handfull.

2. I don't think there is much chance of this, plus with all the season options we have I don't know when you could move it to. On a purely personal note, I know I and MANY other MN hunters really like having the season different than Wisc. or other neighboring states too.

3. This is something I think should be done, but ONLY in areas where the DNR sees a pretty severe overpopulation. In areas like here we don't seem to be overpopulated and this would not be wise here I don't think. Several areas in Cheeseland did this this year and I hear the zone I hunt will be next year...

4. No. Don't really think it matters the length of it. You would do more by adjusting the dates. Buck hunting with the ML's last weekend didn't kill huge numbers of bucks.

5. I think this could work, but wouldn't be my first choice. I personally don't know that we have too many buck tags, just too many baby bucks shot in my opinion...

[Pistolero]

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It is way too early to talk of state mandate as many hunters would oppose this. In the future, you never know.

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I think your right jlm, it might be premature to discuss mandated programs. But the DNR is looking at them and watching how they work in other states. I’m not interested in mandated programs, but if the deer population is not reduced in some areas I feel that the DNR might implement some of these programs. It looks like we might have another mild winter which will result in a lot of twin fawns in the spring. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes they make for next years hunt. Maybe well be able to take a maximum of 10 deer instead of only 5!

Anyway, I’m trying to keep an open mind about this QDM stuff. But I do agree that the brown-is-down mentality needs to become history.

[BLACKJACK]

1. Antler-point restriction. No. Practice QDM if you want, but don't mandate it, especially when I think that if it was put to a vote of deer hunters, a point restriction would be voted down overwhelmingly. Also, I don't see that many spikes, I see a lot of basket rack eights that are still only 1 1/2 year olds - they'd still get shot.

2. Move season out of rut. I think this is the best choice to save bucks but it has the least chance of being implemented because of tradition, conflicts with other states deer hunting seasons, and concerns about cold weather.

3. Earn-a-buck. No. Don't want Mr. Big to walk by when I'm still trying to earn a buck.

4. Shorten buck season. NO. It puts too much emphasis on 'a buck is the only deer worth shooting'. I was glad when they got rid of the bucks only 3A season. That season created a whole generation of buck hunters in SE MN.

5.Buck permit quota. Not sure how this would work but I'm thinking no for the same reasons as number 4.

[lichen fox]

Blackjack...you hit the nail on the head...the damage is already done..."created a whole generation of BUCK hunters".

The regulations we have had to live with for the past several years has created "a buck is the only deer worth shooting or talking about" mentality. I've been hunting whitetails for over 30 years with archery and firearms. When I first began we had a good deer population and you could take "whatever" and were congratulated for your luck!!

Then I watched a generation grow up that on occassion made an honest mistake and down went a doe!! All of a sudden you're looking for the guy with the open doe tag...the kid feels like he or she has done something terribly wrong! The congrat's on the first deer are foregone and a lecture ensues on making sure of your target...when 15 other guys chase 10 deer out of the woods and they are running full speed some with horns, some without...the poster gets excited...maybe they were "aiming" at a buck...but... What I'm getting at is that we need to re-educate a whole generation of hunters that "across the board" management is a good thing....that for most hunters an old smart doe is just as much a trophy as something with alot of horns...ecspecially if you're bowhunting. What is your definition of a "big" buck?? I see plenty of pope and young class whitetails (125") every year...The largest buck I have harvested to date grossed in the mid 160's. I've seen 3 so far this year that would (in my estimation) be in the 170 class...they both have made it through the firearms and muzzeloader season's too!! There are ALOT of quality whitetail bucks around and we don't need more DNR rules (the book in MN is already about 10 pounds)mandating what kind of deer we shoot....if anything they should make it easier for the hunter to bag a deer...it would sure make the insurance company's happy if the roadkills dropped in half!! If you're going to manage for quality you're going to have to make sure no hunter gets excited on a deer drive(perhaps we should outlaw drives...deer are hard to judge on the run)...you'll have to educate hunters on how to judge a deer in the field...the best way is to put out a bucket of corn....you can size a deer up pretty good if you can watch him for five or 10 minutes! You can bet if the DNR mandates "thier own" QDM program there will be an additional 10 or 12 pages of additional regulations to assure "thier QDM policies" are adhered too...If you want to practice it on your own property or within your own party....great!! I do myself on my own property....but I don't go telling the neighbor's to leave that 125 class buck alone 'cause he'll be a real monster in a couple of years!! To each his own...and leave the DNR out of it!

[HunterLee]

The biggest help to save some of the big bucks is to move the season to befroe or after the rut. I shot a big 8 pointer this year. 18 inside and 11.5 in. and 11 in tines. happy to shoot him, but i would of never found him without the rut. just was standing with a doe in the middle of the field at 9 in the morning. only was seen once before that during bowhinting and that was jumping him while setting up the stand. and i think it would make people work harder to get a nice one. just my thoughts for the rest of the ideas i dont like them at all its a personal choice on what to shoot. i like to have my younger brothers shoot at any bucks becasue to them it was big not matter how little i think it is.

[tripper]

What I see here is a debate on each persons concerns based on the area they hunt and what they personaly want to get out of hunting. So I say leave things alone and let the DNR do it's job.

My thoughts on the 5 points that were brought up.

1. I would say no point restriction. Why, because a large protion of this state is like where I hunt, the under brush is so thick that a good count on points can't be done at 30yrds. from a stand.

2.Here the season use to start the weekend before thanksgiving and run through the following weekend,9 days. I'll list some of the complants that got it changed. A. Hunters at deer camp for thnksgiving instead of home with the family. B. To cold and to much snow. C.Not enough big bucks being seen, wanted season moved to the rut when they move more. hmmmm D. Season not long enough, to meny could not get time off during that 9 days. hmmmm Now you have to keep in mind that this was at a time that there were no deer around the cities or close to it and hunters had to travel to the north wooods. That being said it makes me wonder how bad of a job the DNR is doing being you can shoot more of them down there now then you can in the north woods.

3.I take it this means I have to shoot a doe before I can shoot a buck. Let me suggest someting else for areas that need doe control. I go get a lic. and it is for a doe, if I also want the oppertunity to shoot a buck I buy a bonus tag at half price for it. In areas where you can take several deer you would have to state it is for a buck. This entered in the computer so that if you try to buy another buck tag it shows up. On the all season lic. only the origal buck tag would be allowed.

4. I do not think this would help much because at least around here most bucks are taken during the first half anyway. And what do you do with the all season lic. holder?

5. Think I kind of covered this with #3.