Quality Deer Management

[jlm]

Quality Deer Management has been a hot topic in the woods and coffee shops over the last several years and appears to really be taking hold in some areas of the state. How many of you guys and your parties are practicing QDM or some form of management. Have you seen any results good or bad? I would like to tell you about my situation. We have practiced QDM on our land and so have our neighbors. This has been going on now for approximately 8 years. We have some work to do yet to reduce the number of does but I would estimate that the doe to buck ratio now is approximate 5/6 to 1. Lots of young bucks have been observed and we harvest at least one or two monsters every year...sometimes more. Everytime I sit in the stand, I have the opportunity to take something that might make the books. The impact is great as I am more excited than ever to sit in a tree. My unbiased opinion is that QDM is a fantastic program that can and will make your hunting experience much better if you like larger racks and more bucks in your area. How about others? What is your story? If you are interested in learning more about QDM or about how to get started, please let me know and I will provide you with links and names of people that can give you some great advice. Good luck all!

[Ole1855]

jlm,

My hunting party has tried to do some QDM for the last several years, we all let smaller bucks walk and we have taken a number of doe's over the last several years. Here's our problem, we have 80 acres with county forfiet on 2 sides and private on 2 sides, the hunting group that hunts south of us is also practicing QDM, however the party to the west of us shoots anything that walks!! On opening weekend, I saw 26 deer, 23 of them were bucks ranging from small 6 point to a real nice 8 point which I shot. After talking with both of our neighboring hunting parties I found that almost all of the bucks that I let walk were hanging on their meat poles!!! It's kinda hard to practice QDM in a situation like we have.

Ole

[jlm]

I would agree, that is one of the most difficult things to do and take while you are trying to better the quality of bucks on your land. I personally had to make a decision for myself that I do not need to shoot small bucks. If others shoot them, that is just going to have to happen. However, if I want to have better bucks, I will not be part of the problem (not everyone feels small bucks is a problem so I apologize, I am not trying to offend anyone) by shooting them myself. It comes down to personal choice which is very difficult to stick with at times, no question about that. One good thing for you Ole is that you can be sure that the meat hunters did not get all of the bucks ouot of your area. That means larger bucks next year. When the neighbors begin to see that there is trophy opportunity, they begin to rethink their process. I hope you continue with your mission Ole, it will pay off eventually!

[Mark Christianson]

We practice a form of QDM as well.

Although its pretty much we only shoot at a bigger buck.

We have not shot any does, fawns or small bucks in 3 years.

We let our neighbors shoot all the antlerless deer(or unfortuneately anything that moves).

Nobody around us has interest in any form of passing deer.

They are all "brown its down" mentality.

What really stinks is that we not only have people shooting anything that walks by them, there are hack hunters as well.

This year a guy to our west shot and lost a small buck, and a guy to our east shot and lost a doe and a buck. (Yes all 3 during rifle season)

Pretty frustrating when they are thinning the herd, and not able to even tag the animals. They just get back on stand, and end up shooting yet another deer so they can finally get their venison for the freezer.

Needless to say, we are disappointed and even very frustrated with the lack of hunting ability of our neighboring properties.

But, I can say that in the last 3 years, we have been pretty lucky. 2002 we got 2 nice bucks. 2003 I got a nice 8. And 2004 I got my biggest ever. Thats the only 4 deer we have harvested in the last 3 years from our farm. Although some nice ones.

I can only imagine the potential we might have with a little cooperation and some better shooting abilities with the hunters around us.

[paceman]

Yes QDM is tough when the neighbors or even guys in your party wack the small ones. Our group started saying "8 or bigger". But that never lasted the whole season. What usually happens is we pass on the small ones the first weekend and then if we don't see anything big then they get shot towards the end of the season. I can't convince my brother to shoot a doe instead but I'm still trying. Personally I won't shoot a small buck. The last three years I have been fortunate enough to shoot nice buccks the first weekend, (13,9,9) So I think QDM is working to a certain degree. But I do know one neighbor shoots anything so hopefully the deer I pass don't head in thier direction.

[Bagley]

We hunt 165 acres of property in North-west Wisconsin. On this land we have been practicing QDM for about three years.

We have problems though. Only one other neighbor practices QDM. There are three other neighbors that will shoot whatever walks by them.

The reason we started QDM on our land is two fold. 1) Too many little bucks were being shot. 2) The lack of larger bucks. In 2001 there were 19 deer shot off our property.(Gun or Bow) Nine to twelve of those deer were either a spike, fork, or a basket six or eight. We figured something needed to change. We thought that if we let a fraction of those deer go each year, a few them will grow up. Now we only shoot mature bucks, bucks with bad genetics, and does.

The population has stayed pretty much the same, but now that we are practicing QDM on our land we do see more bucks with bigger racks in the area. (Not necessarily from the stand, but driving around the area at night.)I think that it will take some time to let some of these smaller bucks grow and see real improvements in the heard.

What do you guys consider "shooter" bucks? We say roughly out to the ears and use your best judgment. By saying this we end up having a few borderline bucks shot each year.

QDM is a good thing to practice. Hopefully in the years to come we'll get some chances at some big boys.

Bagley

jlm, I,ll take some of those links and information you have.

[email protected]

[Beeber]

I am all for QDM but it is very frustrating when your neighbors don't buy into it. My farm is in NE MN (230 acres) but even with that amount of land I know that quite of few of the little bucks my party lets go end up getting shot by the neighbors. I also have another problem as I live near DL (4 hours away) and from time to time I hear that individuals are shooting dear on our property without permission. The season in 1A is a long one and it is not feasible for me to be up there for the duration. I post the property (even though you do not legally have to post agriculture land) but it does not seem to make a difference. It really is not the locals that are the problem but rather out of the local area hunters that can't seem to drive by a field with a few deer out there without taking a poke at them. My mother still lives on the property but she is in no position to do anything about it. I just spoke to my uncle this morning and he came upon a guy on an ATV last Sunday on a neighbors property dragging out a deer which he shot without permission. This guys excuse was he hadn't seen anything all season where he was hunting by Hibbing so he was doing a little road hunting. How can you get through to these people? We have plenty of does that need to be thinned out and all people would need to do is ask permission and it would be granted. However I am beginning to wonder if once given permission they would really follow the rules I have setup for QDM.

Well enough of my rant

have a good Holliday weekend

[Sand Burr]

This is a subject that we have been talking about/practicing for 3 years. We have been doing a test for the last three years on two parcles of land.

Parcel 1: (Mine) 80 acres Located 17 miles north of Cambridge, MN.

We do not practice QDM and neigbhors do not practice QDM.

Rules: Brown its down

(3) adults hunt

1st year: 16" inside spread 8point (1) spike (3) does

2nd year: 16" inside spread 8point (1) 6 point (1) doe

3rd year: 14" inside spread 8point (1) spike (1) doe (1) female fawn

Parcel 2: (Buddys) 120 acres Located north of Siren, WI.

We do practice QDM and one adjoining neigbhor does practice QDM.

Rules: 8 points only and Adult does

(2-3) adults hunt

1st year: (0) no doe permits (Visualy seen 2-3 small bucks)

2nd year: (0) one doe permit (Visualy seen 2-3 small bucks)

3rd year: (2) does (visually seen 2 small bucks rifle and 3 shooter bucks 8,8,10 Bow & arrow) Season still exists?

I am still waiting for results on my buddys land as we spend $160.00 a year?

I think I still believe in QDM but am starting to switch sides due to the results. I guess you can make your own conclusions by looking at the facts.

[Mark Christianson]

Hey Sandburr

Yeah, it is tough to swallow sometimes.

But.......A small deer passed stands a chance of getting big.

A small dead deer has no chance of getting big.

I get a little frustrated as well, but I personally am not in deer hunting to fill the freezer as a primary objective. So passing a deer isn't as hard.

I can say though, the finger does get VERY itchy.

[bigbucks]

beeber, you'd really have to be careful about who it was & how much you know about them. A lot of guys would follow your rules when they thought you were around, but if they don't follow those rules on their own, probably wouldn't if they knew you were back in DL.

[bigbucks]

I've been practicing a form of QDM personally, at least while bowhunting, for 3 years. I know several of those bucks I've passed on have been killed some years. I think many of the small ones I passed on this year, on one property, survived.

My cousin & I are gradually introducing the idea into our gun hunting party. Neither one of us own the land & many of the guys only gun hunt, so are less picky, 4A, 2-day season. We just try to encourage the guys that have killed a lot of deer over the years to let the small bucks go & shoot does. If you think a deer's a doe, but can't see it's head well enough to be sure, by all means shoot if you want to. If we kill a few small bucks that's better than killing most of them. It hasn't really caught on much yet, but I can see it's starting to gradually. As the licenses have changed giving more time to hunt, it's helped a lot. If I still only hunted two days a year brown would definitely be down, all the time, & it still gets that way at times, if we haven't shot many deer during a particular season.

Generally speaking all bets are off if we're making a drive, as they're a lot of work & people get frustrated if a drive works & then you don't shoot the deer. That's okay though, we really haven't killed many small bucks on drives over the years, maybe we'll average one or two a year, but that's about it. For 12-15 guys between two weekends, that isn't too bad. It's to just get a few of the experienced hunters to pass on a few. Frankly some of the hunters can shoot at all of them as they'll likely only hit one out of every three. Unfortunately some of those they do hit will be difficult to recover.

[Cooter]

Hang with it guys, its gaining popularity. We've just got two neighbors who are brown is down guys to start passing on the little bucks. Still isn't perfect as a couple little bucks get shot in the area, but were are seeing results in the last 3 years. You gotta talk to your neighbors and simply encourage them to join you and others in the QDM program. Do your homework, bring some pics, and be persistant. Do not EVER come down on them for choosing the brown is down philosophy as its legal and is the best way to ensure they will never practice QDM. Present the facts cuz QDM is a win win situation for all. They'll come around if they got any common sense. 'Patience Danielson!'

[Jim Hudson]

QDM will always be difficult in areas where you have limited amount of land to actually implement it on. I think one major thing a landowner can do to improve his or her QDM plan is to create a safe haven on their property for any deer that roam the property. You will never solve the problem of other adjoining landowners from shooting deer but you can try to hold the mature deer on your property by creating these safe havens and places they can move without feeling threatened. As it is tough to not shoot a deer that would be a "shooter" in someone elses book it's just as hard to not hunt certain areas of your property. But this in turn could lead to your land holding more of the mature bucks from your surrounding area. Then as you began to harvest these larger mature deer, I believe you will show to the surrounding landowners that the proof is in the pudding and then they may change their ways of how they harvest deer. Another huge obstacle, especially here in WI is the out of whack buck to doe ratio in many parts of the state. As you manage down to what you believe is a healty population, outside of your property lines, this ratio could still be skewed, and during the rut a lot of younger bucks are going to migrate to where the picking is much easier. But in turn until we get populations to a good ratio, creating a safe haven for these deer will benefit greatly when you need it the most.

Just my thoughts, am not an expert in this field.

[HunterLee]

We do QDM to an extent. Our group gets mostly the all season licence and pass on small bucks during the first nad second weekend, muzzleloader. But the few of our group only hunt the regular season so they kinda shoot what they want but they aren't the best shots so they usually get does anyway. We have seen quite a jump in our bucks around our area (the gary an ada area),even with all the parties that shoot anything that walks. i think the all season licence has helped the casue for our party and shooting small bucks. This year we have shot 4 does, 11 10 huge 8 and a nine, and one small 2 small sixes. But countless little ones walked and we have seen probly 5 or 6 that are big 10's or bigger that have been in the corn.

[jlm]

Fantastic examples and posts guys! Its great to see that others around the state and in other states are beginning to see that we have some great potential out there. One thing that will really change a lot of minds is actually harvesting a large mature buck. Once you get that big boy under your belt, you tend to see things in a different perspective and set the bar a little higher (I am speaking for myself anyway). Great to see some dedicated hunters out there, and as Cooter said, don't give up! Good luck all!

[tripper]

Sorry guy's but I want to eat them not look at them on the wall and not everybody hunts where you can take the time to judge, age and size them. In my opinion to ask everybody to hunt as you want it is not rite. Things can change to much from area to area within a small area. Some area's just do not produce big racks no matter what the age or size of the deer.

[jlm]

I love venision as well, I usually eat two throughout the Winter. Nobody wants to say you have to hunt a certain way, I hope I or anyone else in this thread has not given you that idea. However, it should be noted that the majority of MN has the genetics to produce very nice bucks, they just have to reach their potential. I think many hunters in this state are beginning to realize just what they are sitting on. There is so much potential out there. If you or your party practices QDM, lets hear your story. If you don't practice QDM, have you thought about doing it?

[shortfatguy]

beeber,

if you are willing to let some one hunt (bow or rifle) on your land i would be willing to follow any rules you have and do what i can to protect your land from people who dont have permission to be there. i live in buhl and used to go to school in cook. did your mom teach there?

Tony

[BLACKJACK]

As far as I'm concerned, the deer hunting in MN is as good as I've ever seen it! Leave it as is! I remember when you treasured doe permits and it got to be a long season when you only had one doe permit for 5-6 guys and you were hunting only horns. This year I was able to shoot a bonus doe in Sept with my bow, I shot a nice, but not huge eight point slug hunting, and now I'm still legally bow hunting for my last deer. I still have all of December to hunt. If I wanted to travel to an area with extra bonus permits, I could shoot up to five deer. 25 years ago when I started deer hunting, I'd have been done in September.

The dirty little secret about QDM is that if its practiced the way the purists preach is that you need to shoot more does - lots more does - to bring the buck/doe ratio closer. Done correctly, you will see more big bucks but you'll see less deer overall, to the point where you may not be able to shoot a deer or two every year. Is that what most hunters want? I'd say no.

For the guys that want big bucks, they're out there, just look at the pictures in the Outdoor News and sporting goods shops. Get out there and find them, thats why they call it hunting. Don't try to get it legislated for QDM to where it affects my hunt!!

FYI, I myself have started passing on small bucks - early in the season, mainly because I realize that I can't shoot Mr. Big if I shoot the first small buck that comes by. Plus I also want to have a legal licence left for the late season hunting.

The one change to the hunting seasons that would help to save more bucks, and that wouldn't affect most peoples hunt would be to move it back two weeks, get it out of the rut. The bucks are acting crazy and moving around and more get shot. The downside would be colder, nastier weather for the hunt.

[jlm]

I do not like the idea of a mandate either, that would do nothing but tick a lot of hunters off. In my opinion, QDM needs to be a voluntary thing in which hunters choose to invest in. You are also correct in saying that more does need to be taken and this will reduce the deer numbers overall, that is logical. However, by passing on young bucks, you should be allowing more deer back into the population count. Example would be if you harvest 5 does this year as a group but have passed on 5 small bucks, the impact is minimal. However, I do believe that the population does need to be reduced in some areas, it is getting out of control. In other areas, the doe harvest needs to be reduced, they are being over harvested. One thing that would be great for the hunting community is more local control over the hunting regs. Whatever the case, QDM is working well for some groups of hunters. So for those of you against QDM, what would it take for you to consider such a philosophy? Good luck all!

[BLACKJACK]

jlm, just to clarify, I'm not against QDM as long as its NOT legislated. In Pennsylvania, they're three years into a program that mandates 4 points to a side. It should be interesting to see the results of that experiment.

Another thing that I don't like about the whole QDM thing is that it implies that the only trophy is a one with massive antlers. A trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. If someone shoots a small buck or even a small doe and thinks its trophy, good for them. I know I used to be perfectly happy shooting small bucks but now peer pressure is that it has to be a BIG buck. I've always kept all the antlers from the bucks I've shot, most are even mounted on plaques with the year on them, just last week I was looking at them and reminicing about where I shot each one, the circumstances, etc. How many of the does that you've shot do you remember 10 years later?

[jlm]

Yes, I would agree, a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Have you noticed this though, the older you get and the more experience you have hunting, the higher the bar or standard becomes for the buck you shoot. Maybe this is just me, I don't know. Anyway, let me ask you a question and I am certanly not trying to be a smarta$$. If you had a choice, where would you hunt? In an area that has been managed for 10 years or in an area where small bucks have been over harvested? I know what my answer is! I think it is difficult to conceive that QDM could make the trophy potential much greater in an area without seeing the results. Unfortunately, a hunter does have to make some major sacrifices to see these results. Its all about personal choice and whatever your choice is, thats ok. I am not going to sit here and tell you what kind of deer to harvest. QDM is a philosophy that allows for choice and personal guidelines. You can set the bar anywhere you would like. However, once the results are realized, it is like an addiction, you will set the bar even higher. At least that is my personal experience. MN has great potential and over the next few years the results will start becoming reality. For many, this is already a reality. I hope all hunters are able to experience the opportunity to harvest a mature buck in their future. Good luck all!

[Pistolero]

I harvest deer and have only taken one large buck. I would prefer taking a small deer because the meat is by far better. I have no problem trying to reduce the doe population but could care less about big bucks.

The problem I have with QDM is the use of “Quality” in the description. I think it’s just a feel good word that got thrown in and does not truly describe what you are trying to accomplish, which is to get larger bucks. If there is any quality added to the herd, I think that it is minimal at best

[Mark Christianson]

For me, as I have gotten older, the bigger buck theme is much more intriguing. I think its a little more difficult for people to latch onto, if they are younger, not educated in deer and their habits, or in an area with smaller deer numbers.

Now that I am older and understand deer and their abilities to survive, grow, flourish, etc; I have found it much easier to decide that no more small bucks will fall in my sights. Unless of course, they are injured in some manner.

10 years ago, when I was just hunting in the fall, and not doing much to learn about deer and their habits, I would have told you to stick it, if you would have said to only shoot "bigger bucks". (When I say "you", I am not referring to you jlm.)

Education for me has been a big factor in my change of habits. Not to mention, having deer populations at an all time high doesnt hurt either...... If you pass on one, there is a very good chance to see more.

What will our QDM thoughts be, if we have a couple winters like the mid/late 90's, and the deer are decimated in some areas? We will surely see a little less QDM support I bet.

Chances would be very limited for some people.

[jlm]

"quality" deer management is a philosophy in which to manage the deer herd. It does so by trying to correct the doe:buck ratio, create land management practices which will limit the amount of Winter kill if we ever have another bad one, reduce the number of deer in over populated areas (which will help with Winter kills as well as there will be enough browse for the number of deer), and to educate hunters and land managers regarding habitat, deer habits, and other related information. Some of the information that QDM puts into the publics hands is great stuff. One in particular is the great spike debate! Anyway, QDM provides a lot of great information regardless if you believe in their philosophy or not. I highly recommend looking into it. Like BLB stated, its all about education. So, I guess I would suggest that larger racks are a secondary benefit to quality deer management. Good luck all!