Wolves

[Gustafson]

Whats everyones opinion on the wolf situation in northern WI? I personally think they should be hunted asap. For a state makes so much money yearly from hunter generated revenue how can they let a high wolf pop. affect deer numbers. I hunt in northern WI and I have seen a few wolves, the relatives I know who live fifteen miles north of us don't even hunt there property much anymore due to the wolves. Something needs to be done quickly.

[Cooter]

I think the WI wolf program is a waste of money. Who the heck decided to bring them back anyway? Just a bunch of wolf lovers spending money. We don't need to radio collar and study the durn things each and every year. Spend the funds stricktly for livestock losses. The state treats them like they're about to become extinct. Cripes, how many are there in Canada and Alaska alone? If they don't allow hunting soon, the SSS(Shoot, Shovel, Shut up) system may come into play.

[FreeFlySpy]

Funny you should mention wolves. For the first time my buddy was surrounded by them and he was chased out of the woods.I think the DNR should re think this one. Maybe they will wait until someone gets killed before doing anything?

[Hammer-Smites]

If I wasn't worried about going to jail or losing my hunting/fishing priveleges, I would whack everyone I see.

[CrappieJohn]

You all need to think about this....The wolves are not in your backyard. You are in their's! In Minnesota there is not one instance recorded of a wolf attacking a person and in fact these animals prefer to avoid humans. They eat as much carrion (much of it as a result of hunters' injured game not being found)as crows and eagles and when deer populations drop because of weather/ bad winters, the wolves move to areas where the populations are not an issue. The number of deer these guys eat in a winter is far less that what is schmucked on the hiways within the same area. Kind of makes you want to lie in wait and shoot motor vehicles doesn't it? The mentality is the same.

[Xplorer]

I think that your gonna find that MN folks just kinda take thier presence as a fact nowadays. MN has 7 times the number of wolves as WI (@2500 vs @350), and the WI wolves wern't reintroduced, they disbursed mostly from MN packs (alot from here near Duluth) and expanded due to the large amount of food in WI. A wolf eats 18-20 deer/year, which puts the total in WI at about 7000 deer per year. Last time i looked, there was no shortage of deer in WI. In fact, some units up north went to earn a buck this year due to way too high deer numbers. In the past i have hunted 28, SW of Hurley where my inlaws have a cabin in the middle of the Obrien lake pack. We have seen them in the woods and on the roads. I think the bear dog killings the last 2 years have made this more of an issue in WI than it will ever be in MN. I dont think that you'll see a traditional hunt in WI for some time (if at all), we dont and wont in MN for awhile I'm sure even with all our wolves. Yes you need to be aware in the woods (had a pair go after my springer while late season grouse hunting years ago) and eventually there may be a human/wolf conflict, but realistically you have a greater chance of getting attacked by a bear than a wolf.

I do think that biologists/DNR have underestimated the wolf's ability to adapt to areas considered outside of traditional wolf range, and occupy areas that they didnt "plan" on having them in.

[muskybuck]

Post deleted by muskybuck

[kjgmh]

I had 5 wolves start to circle me last fall while bird hunting. All I can say is that was the most scared I have ever been. You look at their eyes and you can tell that they have no fear. This is aout 3 miles from were a logger got circled and had to run for his skidder. We had 2 stands that we could not hunt last year because everytime we tried all you would see was wolves chasing the deer. I can not even bird hunt back there from fear of my dog getting attacked, from the way I understand the law I can not even defend my dog.

Now this season with the wolves still in the area what do you do if you shoot a deer. No way am I tracking or dragging a deer in the dark with the wolves around and if you leave it no doubt the wolves will get it. Anyone now of a fool-proof way to scare the wolves out of our area?

[Gustafson]

We have been hunting the area for generations without wolves. I think they have a right to exist but this isn't 1850 anymore and with the numbers the population is rising to is alarming. I know guys who used to be avid bowhunters around the Stanberry area that now have moved on because the wolves are either running the deer out of the area, or have seemed to "cleaned house" of the deer in their hunting tracts. Granted the wolves haven't ate all the deer, they do make their mark. They are beautiful animals but when it comes down to not even being able to run hounds, a WI tradition, or bird hunting with your dog without fear of wolves trying to take your hunting pal down, something needs to be done. I gurantee WI DNR will start losing funds from folks either not hunting from lack of deer they are used to, or from the fact that they are staying out of the woods due to fear.

[Xplorer]

Gustafson,

I guess what i was trying to get across is that you may as well get used to hunting with wolves in the northern third of the state, cause it aint gonna change in the future, they are there to stay. The thinking up here (northern MN) is that until they start showing up in the northern suburbs of the Twin Cities and start munching on pets, nothing much may change after delisting except some additional rights for protecting your own livestock/pets from predation.

And yes, with WI allowing dog training on bears starting in July (i believe), you are gonna have dogs taken down by packs every year. I think that the DNR should make a map available that shows the "core rendevous areas" of each pack. These areas are where pups are usually found, and where many of the attacks to date have occured. I know a dog cant read a map, but the handlers could try to avoid these areas (I'm totally against the state reimbursing them for costs of the lost dogs, if you play, you pay)

MN has had over 1000 wolves in the state for over 25 years, and there has yet to be a legal hunt for them. I dont see WI having a hunt in the next 10 years with their relativly small numbers. I just dont think you can really expect to ever hunt these areas again without the potential presence of wolves. I guess we'll see what happens once delisting is accomplished (which will be no small feat due to lawsuits by special interest groups).

PS: Good luck this weekend to all you guys, I wont be hunting this year but expect my FIL to do very well in 28.

[Nuclear Fishin]

I can contain myself so I'll jump in here and give my two cents. The point raised that wolves will attack a person is completely naive. Its just never happened in North America and anyone who has spent time around wolves knows why. They don't hang around too long when they see or smell a person.

Killing deer? Yes, they kill deer. Do Wisconsin hunters having to worry about deer populations? No! If you are having problems finding deer in Wisconsin then there is something wrong with you...period. The deer populations are higher than they've ever been. There is just more deer in every part of the state than there ever has been. The doe/buck ratios are out of whack due to hunting of bucks only and the result is the emergency earn-a-buck program. The deer populations are much higher than wildlife managers want and see as healthy.

Consider this, The reason deer are always alert, fast, can jump incredibly high, etc. can be attributed to the natural selection that occurred when wolves were abundant and their main predators. Now there is no natural selection occuring and the diseased (CWD), weak, dumb, slow deer are surviving to breed and pass the genes on. With wolves in an ecosystem the predator/prey relationship is restored and the buck/doe ratio and the natural selection is brought back into balance creating healthier populations of deer and also healthier deer.

For those of you who don't understand what I'm describing here, the jist is this; You should be glad you have the wolves and they are good for you as deer hunters. If it still doesn't make sense then take a basic Biology 101 course at you local community college. If you are worried about a dog getting killed, then don't let him run around in the woods after bears! especially in a home area of a wolf pack.

[kjgmh]

Ignorance? I just did a search and quickly found 3 documented wolf attacks in North America. They also say that wolves stay away from humans. When I had them start to circle me that does not sound like staying away from or fearing humans. I don't run bears with dogs either, but I do have a lab that I use for bird hunting, and I will not take him in the woods in certain areas.

I agree that we do not have to worry about the deer herd as a whole state, but wolves can completely run deer off of a 40 or an 80 of private land. I have seen it happen. So the person that owns that land has no deer on it, can't lets his pets out and does not even feel safe walking around on his land. But what do I know I am ignorant?

[nolte]

Nuclear

I think maybe you shoud reflect a little on your comment of ingnorance. I live in Wolf country in WI and have a few things to add. Wolves have little to do with restoring herd balance to WI deer in our area. The reason that the balance is way off is that land owners restrict access to private property and do not remove enough antlerless deer. You are right that wolves do attack sick and injured animals but it is not to the extent that wolf lovers would like everyone to believe. They do target one class of animals though and that is the YOUNG. I for one would like to have a lot of these fawns make it to be adult deer and not die just because they are young. I live by a large cattle ranch and they patrol their fences almost every day. They have an enourmous jump in wolf sightings and tracks during calving season and they lose about 20 to 30 calves a year. Wolves have no place there. They are no doubt doing what is in their natural instinct by being opportunistic hunters, but they are becoming a nuisance.

Also, the comment about not letting a dog run a bear near wolves is very nearsighted comment. Just because you don't do it doens't make it wrong. Bear hunters lose quite a few prized hounds every year and the kills sites from these are very gruesome. Ask the hunters that go into these sites to try and get their dogs out what they think of wolves and if they thought the wolves were afraid of them. I think you'll get a very different view.

Someone also said that there haven't been any reported wolf attacks on humans. Reported is the key word here. For the DNR to claim an attack they have to have huge amounts of undisputable evidence. This is not my definition of an attack. To me an attack is when you are confronted in the backwoods and you are in fear of your life. For instance, not being let out of your treestand, being circled while walking out of the woods(with or without your dog), being possessive of a dead deer. All of which have happend in close proximity of my house. And these cases are on the rise.

I think wolves are a beautiful animal that truely symbolizes the wild, but before you say what should or shouldn't be done with wolf managment in WI, Let old Los Lobo stare you down when you are alone in the big timber and you tell me if you think he's afraid.

[kjgmh]

Well put Nolte, what pack is this that is giving the rancer problems, seem that certain packs are more problematic than others. The one that tried to circle me was by Ino. I have spent lots of time in the woods in the range of wolves out of Park Falls and have had no contact or problems. It seems that when they get into farming areas there are more prolmes, ecspecially when there are not big tracts of land.

[nolte]

kjgmh

The pack by us is south of Superior about 45 miles. There are a few really large swamps that they roam through too. Some of them no doubt range into Minnesota and maybe as far up as the Duluth area. I only live about a mile away from the stateline.

[Nuclear Fishin]

I've lived most of my life in wolf country and I've heard about everything you could imagine why wolves are bad. Some of my best friends will not hesitate to grease any wolf they see. The reasons I've heard are:

They will kill me

They will kill my dog

They kill the deer I like to kill

They kill livestock

The livestock part I can understand. Thats why the reimburse farmers when this happens. Keep in mind coyotes often are to blame and people often can't distinguish an actual timerwolf from a coyote. Some people still call coyotes 'brush wolves' in northern minnesota.

The dog argument I can kinda understand but not really. Your hunting dog can die from many other things like getting hit by a car, getting shot by people, getting intentionally run over, etc. I've seen all these happen to my own dogs. Yes you increase you odds of a dog getting attacked when you bring them into wolf territory and let them run loose out of sight of you. Most people grouse hunt though and the dog usually stays close enough where this is a non-issue. I was grouse hunting with my dog one time and we stumbled on a pack of timberwolves. They stuck around just long enough to see and smell me and they took a b-line for thickest cover they could find.

The other two arguments are complete nonsense in my opinion. Some of the best whitetail trophy areas in the country are right smack dab in the middle of wolf country. Consider St. Louis country MN which is right near the top on a national list for trophy whitetails. Also Sawyer Wisc. Very good trophy whitetail counties which are known nationally and also have alot of wolves. I personally think that wolves getting reintroduced actually helps the trophy potential for an area and also brings an area back into balance. If you disagree, then think about my friend who likes to shoot wolves. He beleives his deer area has been really affected by all the wolves there. He shot three bucks just last week in that area. Also in the same area there was a true trophy buck shot this season. A very successful hunt in an area that he claims has been wiped out by all the wolves there.

If you are restricting your deer hunting to a 40 or 80 acre private parcel of land then your lack of success is not becuase a wolf came on your property and killed all your deer. Wolves travel an average of 10 miles a day and their ranges can cover many square miles. I highly doubt they just plopped down on your 40 acre plot and killed every deer on your land. Its possible though...I guess but more than likely the conclusion you have come to is not a well thought out explanation for a lack of success and an easy scapegoat. Every person I've heard blame wolves for their lack of success has a very limited understanding of where they are hunting the public land available in their area.

Wolves will kill me? If you find an article or a known case of a full blood wild timberwolf ambushing and killing a human in North America, I'd like to read it. I'm not talking wolf/dog hybrids, coyotes, domesticated wolves or anything else. Its certainly a possibility but to say that wild wolves are not afraid of people is just false. I've spotted many wolves and longest I've had to look at them is about ten seconds before they split.

I'm not a "wolf lover" but I do like to see wild areas return to a somewhat wild state. I also enjoy deer hunting and think there should be a better way to manage deer than earn-a-buck. I'm also concerned about disease of which CWD is not the last deer born disease we will hear about. The DNR and the US Forest Service have been welcoming the wolf recovery for a number of reasons. Its not just all about the howl or the sight of them, it also has to do with the balance they bring back to areas that are prone to disease and overbrowsing by deer.

My two cents and I hope I didnt' offend anyone, but some of the arguments that many people who shoot wolves make are yes..."ignorant".

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Crappie Tom, Nuclear Fishin, i got your back! you guys are right on. i agree that wolf management needs to be concidered & implemented, espically around ranches and farms, and populated areas. but they were here long before the ranches were. we are invading their territory, again! we killed them off once, why do you want to do it again? as far as the dogs go, i too have a lab that i hunt with, hes my best friend, id hate to see him get taken out by a wolf. but thats the risk i take when i let him run free in the woods. its the risk we all take when we step into the WILD!! why are you scared anyway, you havea gun with you dont you???? ive seen my pup react when wolves are present, he heels better then, then when i command him too. there's cougars out there now too!, as well as badgers, bobcats, lynx, fishers.... but my biggest fear is the other hunters out there that are so trigger happy, blood thirsty, and scared of wolves, that my pup may just pass in their minds as a black phased wolf and POP! i loose a buddy. another thing to concider, the way this winter is looking, its probably gonna be snow free. that doest boad well with the wolf. they are most dangerous hunting in deep snow, deer cant run in deep snow, wolves can. deer run real fast in no/shallow snow, wolves cant catch them as well. your deer heard will once again be more than plentifull, and wolves will continue to disperse. years ago, when i hunted north of 2harbors, all we saw for a few years was wolf tracks, no deer. now its been balanced out and everything has been distributed evenly. in fact, just like everywhere else around here, there is deer EVERYWHERE. enjoy the wolf. they are an amazing species. without them, you can count on a major outbreak of CWD and other diseases throughout the north country. be glad they are here.

[Browning83]

Being a bear, coyote, and bobcat hunter I personally think all wolves should be shot. Last year over 41 bear hounds were killed by wolves. And people who think wolves are great....just wait til Fido is in one of the wolves stomachs, and then they'll realize they are more of a nusiance then anything else. I have seen a few wolves out hunting and have seen there tracks on the hounds minutes after we've thrown them.

[nolte]

Browning83 you sound like someone I know named Chad. Now I agree with you on the wolf situation but alot of the people on here don't agree or understand our view.

Wolves belong in wilderness areas. Most of Northern WI isn't really a wilderness area. There are to many places where wolves have the ability to come in contact with people. Wolves just don't stay in these uninhabited areas in WI. The move to the fringe areas and come in contact with people. I don't know how the wolves are in MN but here they have definately moved into areas that would not be considered wilderness. Just last winter in Crex Meadows north of Grantsburg wolves went in to a bear den and drug out a hibernating bear and killed it. This was seen by the DNR officers and documented. They are the most fierce predator in North America.

Nuclear I agree with you that earn a buck is a joke. I state this again. The reason that you can't control the deer heard in WI is because you can't reduce deer numbers on private land. I also think the dnr does a poor job of estimating actual deer numbers. That just my opinion though. Also check out your stats again on trophy counties. I bet the majority of the record book animals in those counties came during past eras, prior to 1980,when there weren't wolves, not lately. The number one area for big deer in the nation is Buffalo County Wi and Winona county MN. Followed by some counties in Iowa, Kansas. I bet the wolf population in those areas is quite low. You don't need wolves to get big deer you only need people to not shoot spikes, forks and basket racks and let them grow. It isn't a tough concept. Ask any outfitter in northern Mantitoba and Sask what they want to happen to the wolves. There are a ton more up there and they want them all gone. In you can shoot one before you shoot your deer and they tell you to make sure you do if you get the chance.

Do you know why the DNR and Fish and Wildlife welcomed the wolf. Because it gives them a positive spin to the liberal community and gives them another task to take care of and gives job security.

Someone said earlier about shooting them. "why are you scared anyway, you have a gun with you dont you???? " I have no problem shooting one if it comes to that but I don't want to have to carry a firearm on me every time I step into the woods.

Also the statements about being in the wild with all the animals and it is a chance you have to take is so incrediblely bogus. I or my close friends have had dogs killed by bears, cars, fallen of cliffs, drowned in ice cover rivers and lakes, porcupines, shot by hunters and caught sickness from raccoons. The one thing that is different about those than wolves is wolves will willingly seek out your dog and kill it. I have seen it personally. They also will kill any other animal they can run down. In our area do you know what their favorite cruising trail is now. Snowmobile and ATV trails and roads not Wilderness Areas.

About the other animals that are a danger I Honestly I wish we had mountain lions and I have never seen a dog killed by a "badgers, bobcats, lynx, fishers.."

Also the compensation that a rancher gets does not cover the cost they have to spend having to patrol and the animals that are killed. Did you also know that you have to have undipustable proof on kills and it is a huge hassle with a lag in payment.

There is no doubt that wolves have a fear of humans sometimes. But, it isn't all the time. Until you are in that situation with the grey ghost you won't understand.

Here is a link from a anti-wolf group in Idaho. Just take a look at it. http://www.centralidahowolfcoalition.com/

[Cooter]

I'd just like to know where the funding comes from for wolf studies/tracking as well as livestock/hound losses. And who made the decision to reintroduce them? I don't care whether they are here or not, I just want to know whos paying for it.

[Nuclear Fishin]

I can see this quickly turning into a political right wing vs. left wing argument.

They actually weren't introduced, they came back on their own because they are oppurtunistic and the swelling of the deer herd has helped them increase their numbers and establish new territories.

I am not against management of wolves at all. Most people understand they need to be managed. What I am against is individuals voluntarily shooting any wolf that crosses their path because they have deduced by their own logic that no wolves means a better world for them. I beleive there is opportunity for populations of managed wolves to exist and help the dense deer populations in many areas of WI and MN. They are already considering delisting them from endangered and allowing this to happen in some areas.

There are other benefits such as not having to worry if a weird brain disease is going to turn anyone who eats venison into a mad cow, or even spreading to livestock. Or getting Lyme disease or any other deer hosted disease that spreads in areas of dense deer populations. Those are my concerns and the reasons I don't support an all out eradication of wolves. That would just not make any sense in my opinion.

[Jim Hudson]

This is one of the biggest debates in our state but no matter how hard we debate, the wolves are here to stay. We as hunters, fisherman, and sportsman alike must accept this and focus on making the DNR and other management authorities implement a sound practice to allow wolves and all other creatures to co-exist.

I personally like wolves and I deer hunt, hound hunt, etc etc etc and personally live in an area where wolves call home. I have seen wolves but have never had a close encounter with a wolf during the numerous amount of time I have been in the woods by myself or with any of my dogs. It's not the wolves, the deer, or any other animal that needs to be controlled, Its us. We as a state need to be more united in how these animals are managed for the better good of the land and all of our surroundings. Our management practices and our land ethics are what will make co-existing with wolves, bear, etc a great thing for all people in our state. Someday I hope I am able to trap or hunt a wolf in our state, but for now I am okay with just seeing them.

I will leave you all with a question of thought, why is there all the fuss about wolves and the harm that could be done to a person by one or a pack when I see in the news of people getting attacked by deer, domesticated dogs, moose, etc, etc but I dont see people wanting to eliminate all these animals? Or what about the crop damage sustained by deer and bear? Should we eliminate all of them for the simple purpose of we give them an easy meal? It's nature and we cant change that, just ourselves to adapt to our ever changing surroundings.

[chromer]

I hunt in the far NW corner of WIS. and the wolves have become a problem. My cousin shot a nice buck a couple weekeneds ago and let it sit for a bout an hour. He went to go get it and found nothing but bones! In the last two years bear guides around the Bayfield area have had over a dozen dogs killed by them. Northern Wis., while being similar to northern MN, is also very differnt. In northern MN you can go miles and miles without finding another human being, but Wis. is a little different story. The WDNR should definetly rethink the millions of dollars they are spending on this program. I'm no expert, just my two cents worth.

[kjgmh]

I have never said that I would shoot a wolf. Never have and have had plenty of opportunities. Nuclear, I have had encounters with wolves up close and they did not do in my instance what they did in yours. They were withing 30-40 yards and getting closer. I had a 20 gague shotgun in my hands, should that make me feel safe?

Last year the DNR had to kill 15 wolves that were causing problems, killing livestock and pets. Does not sound like they are fitting in too well. I really do not buy the arguement that they were here first. Times are a changing, the population is on the rise.

I am not against all wolves, but I do believe that they need to be controlled and only be in areas of large tracts of land. Also there needs to be something done to make wolf killed animals more easy to keep track of. For every 10 animals killed by wolves are they actually attributed to wolves?

[windycity]

If human beings had half the adaptibility that wolves have, this would be a non-issue. When you walk into Alaskan Grizzly country you automatically have heightened awareness. Whether you encounter a bear or not, there is definite value in their mere presence because of what they represent. The same feeling could exist here if we let it. Good deer and bear hunting can co-exist with a wolf population, but unfortunatley it may require people to adapt and prepare differently. After looking back on how these types of issues are typically resolved and after reading some of these posts, I'm not sure that people have the desire or the ability......