chain saw losing chain too often

[Deet]

I have a 455 rancher and I have a heck of a time keeping a chain on when doing a lot of limbing, trying to work fast. Normal bolt cutting or firewood work, etc, is not a problem. I understand the importance of keeping the chain tight, etc.

Father-in-law had the same trouble until he put on a different style sprocket. Trying to figure out exactly what that's called. Rim style? Local shop said that shouldn't make a difference, but whatever my F-I-L did with his saw made a big difference.

[delcecchi]

Probably worth giving it a try.

[witgey&water]

Here are 2 pics first is a rim spur and the second is a pro spur.  I don't know if this will help your problem but replacing a worn out spur will always help saw performance.

 

 

[Deet]

Upon further inspection of my bar by experienced eyes, it was probably the bar giving me trouble. The [pro spur] sprocket isn't worn too bad. Anyway, put a new bar and chain on but didn't get to work long enough to say for sure if my issues are gone. Only limbed long enough to burn a tank and a half of gas, and didn't pop the chain in that time, which is good.

Thanks.

[BobT]

I have a 455 rancher and I have a heck of a time keeping a chain on when doing a lot of limbing, trying to work fast. Normal bolt cutting or firewood work, etc, is not a problem. I understand the importance of keeping the chain tight, etc.

Father-in-law had the same trouble until he put on a different style sprocket. Trying to figure out exactly what that's called. Rim style? Local shop said that shouldn't make a difference, but whatever my F-I-L did with his saw made a big difference.

How old is the chain? When I was logging full-time, I would buy three chains with each sprocket and rotate chains daily along with filing my bar at least weekly. By the time the chains were pretty much used up, the sprocket was about done too.

One time I tried using one chain until it wore out. When I put on the new chain, I had nothing but trouble. The sprocket was worn to match the old chain so the new one didn't fit the sprocket. 

For what it's worth, most people wouldn't cut as much wood in a couple years than I did in a week back then. My point being that if you start with one chain on a new sprocket, when it wears out it might be a good idea to replace the sprocket at the same time. 

[Deet]

Good info to know, Bob. Thank you. I had been using three chains since I got the saw (4 years ago?), but none of them are used up yet. A couple are maybe half-gone or a little less.

After talking to a couple guys from a small-engine shop, I'm sure my worn and slightly-warped bar was the problem. That and, according to them, I wasn't keeping the chain tight enough. 

[bobberineyes]

I have the same saw deet,  probably around the same age. Out of the 5 blades I file and sometimes bring in for sharpening their is one blade that jumped off when it was fairly new, brought it in and was told it looked fine.  Ended up throwing it and haven't had an issue since. That is good to know about the sprocket,  even though they look good probably not a bad idea to switch them out..

 

 

 

 

[Finns]

I had a similar problem with chain coming off.  Bent bar. 

[SkunkedAgain]

After talking to a couple guys from a small-engine shop, I'm sure my worn and slightly-warped bar was the problem. That and, according to them, I wasn't keeping the chain tight enough. 

Deet - Your post didn't describe in what manner the bar was warped, but if you're limbing and running the engine too fast I know that you can get problems - more likely in the engine than warping the bar though. I would assume that your bar merely got caught in a tree at some point.

[Deet]

I would assume that your bar merely got caught in a tree at some point.

Yes... many times!

[BobT]

I don't know if you can run a chain too fast, especially when limbing. Running a chainsaw at slow speed is probably the most dangerous thing you can do with it. A slow chain will grab material unexpectedly. It can either jerk the saw from your hands or grab the limb and whip you with it. I remember when I first began my logging days, my boss gave me two pieces of advice. 

• "There are two speeds on this chainsaw...off and wide open. 
• "There is only one proper way to fell a tree. ALWAYS clear an escape route before you begin. Notch the tree about 25% deep as close to the ground as you can and cut from the back side at the same level. Once it begins to fall finish the cut and get away from the tree. If done correctly, the stump will be about 2" above the ground and flat on top. NEVER let me see you use the "farmer cut." It is the most dangerous way to fell a tree because it is impossible to control. If I ever see you using this method I'll fire you immediately!"

For those that don't know the farmer cut see figure below.

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by BobT

[delcecchi]

Just to educate me, what makes the tree fall towards that little wedge instead of pinching the saw?  Once you get close to the middle of the tree what keeps it from tipping to the right?

[BobT]

When cut this way, you can work with it. There are a few advantages.

First, the cut is low to the ground and being lower to the ground gives you a mechanical advantage when your saw does become pinched making it easier to push the tree to get it started on its downward journey or free your stuck saw. The "farmer cut" is so high up that the feller has no leverage for pushing the tree. Remember, loggers don't always get to drop trees the way they lean.

Second, once it is on its way down, this cut provides an ability to steer the tree one way or another. What I called the "farmer cut" does not offer this option. There were times when, depending on how the tree was leaning, I would make my wedge on a side different from my target felling location because I needed to control the amount of material as I cut so I could literally spin the tree the way I wanted it to go. We would actually challenge each other to hit targets with our trees and when they are leaning in many different angles, it sometimes required that we use this steering ability to achieve our task. 

Third, when cutting low to the ground, there is less risk to the cutter. This is one reason why topping trees can be so dangerous. The cutter is forced to cut higher and sometimes above himself. 

Fourth, with this cut there's less risk of creating what we called a "barber chair" which also can be extremely dangerous because the but can slide backwards when the tree splits putting the cutter in danger. Once we had the tree felling toward our target we could finish the cut off clean and then get away from it before it fell far enough to put us at risk.

Fifth, from the logger's perspective, farmer cut trees leave a nasty tall stump with a sharp top that cuts tires.

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by BobT

[delcecchi]

I wasn't defending the farmer cut, by any means.  Sorry if it came across that way.

I just wanted to understand how using a small wedge cut works. The center of the tree is in the flat part so the tree would, if no natural lean, want to fall to the side that goes through the middle. 

The tree cutters I have watched seemed to make a bigger wedge, or they hooked a rope to a pickup.

 

[BobT]

I didn't think you were defending what we called the farmer cut. Just wanted to explain some of the reasons for avoiding it. I do know that using the method we used, it was possible to fell a tree just about any direction we wanted just by controlling our back cut. In fact, often times the wedge was not cut on the side facing the direction we wanted the tree to fall. It was a tool that we employed using the material of the tree to our advantage. 

Another thing we also did was to cut a small maple tree about 10' long and peel it so it would dry. This was used as a push stick when we needed to use a little extra persuasion. We'd reach up and make a small notch with the tip of the saw as high as we could to provide a push point. It was surprising how much persuading one could apply when the cut was so low to the ground and the push stick was applying pressure about 7' or 8' off the ground. . 

[delcecchi]

Ok, 

I still don't understand how the small wedge cut works, but given my limited experience it's not surprising. 

[SkunkedAgain]

Del - Here is a great page to check out:  https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts.html

Bob - As for the chainsaw speed, I was referring to running at WOT when limbing light branches that don't put any load on the saw. That's when I run it around 2/3 to 3/4 throttle so as not to overheat the saw. You should be able to find the sweet spot for throttle vs load by ear, feel, or both. I agree about not running it at slow speed during a cut.

Edited December 28, 2015 by SkunkedAgain

[delcecchi]

OK, I see the pictures and understand what is supposed to be done.  I just don't understand what makes the tree fall towards the notch, since the center of the trunk, where supposedly the tree would balance, is over the back cut.  So once the back cut passes the middle of the tree, why doesn't the tree want to fall, slightly, towards the back cut?   

If I didn't make a notch at all, it would tip towards the cut, right?  So why does a small notch make it tip away from the cut?   I would have thought that the notch would have to go to or past the center of the tree.  

Again I am just trying to understand, not disputing authority.  

[lovebigbluegills]

More often than not I let the tree tell me which way it wants to go. The biggest factors I rely on are the tree itself (more or heavier branches on one side- I mainly cut poplar), and wind can also play a big factor with the direction you want it to go. I've waited a few weeks before to cut a tree close to a shed just waiting for a strong enough wind from the right direction.

The push pole bobt mentioned can also help a lot, getting the tree to go the direction you want it to go. 

If you don't make a face cut (wedge), the first few feet of the trunk will split if you don't get it cut the whole way through.

 

[BLACKJACK]

Good info to know, Bob. Thank you. I had been using three chains since I got the saw (4 years ago?), but none of them are used up yet. A couple are maybe half-gone or a little less.

After talking to a couple guys from a small-engine shop, I'm sure my worn and slightly-warped bar was the problem. That and, according to them, I wasn't keeping the chain tight enough. 

After running more than a few chains off, ruining some, I run a tight chain!!! Especially when you're brush cutting, and even limbing, because you eventually run into small stuff that needs to be cut out of the way.

[BLACKJACK]

I don't know if you can run a chain too fast, especially when limbing. Running a chainsaw at slow speed is probably the most dangerous thing you can do with it. A slow chain will grab material unexpectedly. It can either jerk the saw from your hands or grab the limb and whip you with it. I remember when I first began my logging days, my boss gave me two pieces of advice. 

• "There are two speeds on this chainsaw...off and wide open. 
• "There is only one proper way to fell a tree. ALWAYS clear an escape route before you begin. Notch the tree about 25% deep as close to the ground as you can and cut from the back side at the same level. Once it begins to fall finish the cut and get away from the tree. If done correctly, the stump will be about 2" above the ground and flat on top. NEVER let me see you use the "farmer cut." It is the most dangerous way to fell a tree because it is impossible to control. If I ever see you using this method I'll fire you immediately!"

For those that don't know the farmer cut see figure below.

 

Bob, I'm envious of your ability to drop the tree where you want it. Practice makes perfect. I normally just drop it the way its leaning, still using the 'right' notch technique.

 

Question: Why cut it so low?? I like to cut it at about 18 inches, I'm not bent over so far and its easier to back up, make my getaway. Then I just cut off that tit thats left to make a flat stump.

[lovebigbluegills]

I cut my stumps about 18 inches too, then cut them off close to the ground.

I'm guessing the only reason bob cuts them close to start, is efficiency. One cut instead of two- saves quite a bit of time during the course of a day and that extra time is more production.

[BobT]

For some reason I was unable to use the quote feature but to answer your question about cutting low to the ground...it is safety. By making the cut lower to the ground, you are in a better position to use leverage (push stick for example) to coax a tree that happens to lean against you and pinch your saw. Also, unless you're leaving a high stump to facilitate using a dozer to remove it later, why not get the whole tree rather than leaving the best part of the trunk still standing? 

Please bear in mind that there are times when we fully expected our saw to become pinched for a time. This is because we didn't always want to fell them the direction they were leaning. Felling a tree consistently where you want it to go really takes more patience than people realize. You want to control its fall, not let it dictate to you where and when it will go down. 

[Powerstroke]

The question of why does the tree follow the smaller notch is simply a matter of physics. A good tree feller can drop nearly any tree where he wants to, but realistically, there will always be trees you cannot coax without a chain or rope. Those trees have a strong lean or lots of overhead weight going in a certain direction. Thats just the nature of trees. If you plan your cuts and your direction of fall properly, that small amount of wedge will allow the tree to start leaning towards the wedge as soon as you start cutting from the back side. If the tree does seem to want to lean back onto the bar, a wedge placed in the kerf will protect your bar and provide a small amount of lift to get the tree going the right direction.

Del, you keep asking your question by asserting an assumption that somehow the middle of the tree has  power to decide where the tree. In reality, usually the tree is already moving the direction you want it to go before the cut reaches the middle. This becomes very obvios when cutting larger trees. You rarely get to observe it in smaller trees because the saw is so much bigger than the tree and there is very little weight in the air. On a large tree, the cutting is slower and you can be more methodical with your cuts. It is easy to see the tree start to lean, even a few degrees. It becomes easy to see if the tree wants to pinch the bar, long before it actually pinches the bar. 

Most people think of logging as a "knuckle-dragger" type of work, but an excellent sawyer must know the different trees, how the wood tears and breaks and have an eye for physics and be able to predict where and how a tree will fall. Poplar, elm, ash, oak, maple, etc. Everyone knows the wood is different, but it takes a skill to know that maple likes to crack and snap off while elm has a long stringy grain and will hold on till the last moment. Therefore elk is easier to steer. Maple might break off too soon and become unpredictable. 

 

Another reason loggers cut so close to the ground is that every foot of a tree is $$$. If a logger left 18" stumps all over the place they would lose countless hours and thousands of dollars be leaving board feet in the woods and having numerous stumps laying around. For firewood or just regular tree cutting, cutting up higher can be beneficial. Another reason when deciding where to place your cuts is simply decided by the tree. If the tree itself has a weird twist or flat spot or some other feature that will make it easier to cut higher or lower, use it to your advantage. 

 

Great job explaining BobT!! There is so much misimformation out there about the proper use of chainsaws and the proper way to fell trees. You covered so much in this thread!! 

[delcecchi]

I admit ignorance as to how trees actually behave.  I was just considering gravity.  And I am perfectly willing to consider the idea that my thinking is/was incorrect.  So, now I will have to think about it some more to figure out why my initial thoughts were wrong.  Thanks. 

[BobT]

When I was felling for the skidder it was important to land them as parallel as practical to make it easier to hook on with the cables and get them skidded out. If I dropped them willy-nilly and every which way they would get tangled up within the standing timber and really make a mess or get broken when the skidder pulled them out. When I was piece cutting, I was paid by the stick and being able to fell the trees where I wanted meant the difference between working hard and working smart. 

Piece cutting was used to handle smaller more mixed wood. We basically cut a road through the trees with the trees cut into 100" length and stacked on each side sorted by species and the tree tops to the outside. This made it easy for a skidder with a grapple to drive down the center and pick up whatever species he needed. If we couldn't control where we put them, we could create a lot of work for ourselves with little pay because we didn't get paid for moving the brush.