VW--Oooopsie

[Jeremy airjer W]

o.k. we have had our fun.

they got busted for cheating plain and simple. If you want to play the game than you have to play by the rules. I agree diesel emissions are a clustertruck. It is what it is. Maybe instead of trying to figure out how to cheat the system for the last several years they should have been coming up with something better. I dont think any auto manufacturer was oblivious to anything they do. Sometimes they just need a little encouragement to get things moving in the right direction. If they didnt get that push we would still be driving steel tanks with big v-8 that put out didly for power but sure where thirsty. The problem is we cant fill those tanks for 12 dollars anymore.

 

I am not a big fan of diesel engines, but with the promises of some pretty incredible fuel economy numbers, some fantastic torque and impressive hp, a diesel pickup is starting to look better and better every year. Should I be able to get all of those out of a 2.0 turbo? I driven some of the early volkswagen diesels. There painfully lacking in performance but i bet they could rip the Mall of America off its foundation without breaking a sweat. You can feel that kind of torque. The later models are far more impressive in every way. Yes they are cheating but I'm guessing even after the "repair" these cars will still be far beyond there predecessors. Something that may not have happened without the Government getting involved.

 

 

[Jeremy airjer W]

On a side note, I do believe that EGR in a late model gasoline engine vehicle is only there for fuel economy. The cat is taking care of all the emissions. Direct injection and variable valve timing is eliminating the need for EGR.

http://bestride.com/blog/volkswagen-to-refit-11-million-diesel-vehicles/25036/

[delcecchi]

I am also thinking that leaving the engine in "test mode" would be unsatisfactory.  They have to know that already from before they enabled the cheat in the first place. 

[Jeremy airjer W]

[delcecchi]

How long has it been since they used that farfegnugen or whatever thing in the ads? 

[LMITOUT]

[Jeremy airjer W]

[swamptiger]

 

Here is one set of estimates:

1. Recall costs at $300/auto would be $3.3 billion.
2. Possible US fines of $18 billion for 482,000 autos fitted with the cheater device;
3. Fines for the other autos fitted with the cheater device (11 million - 482,000) = 10,518,000 autos. The US fine works out to $37,344 per car. Applied to the 10.5 million other illegal autos, the fees could amount to $392 billion.
4. Compensation to the owners of the cheat autos already being demanded in class action lawsuits. Ron Lieber quotes a suggestion of Steve Wilhite who was in charge of US marketing in the 1990s. Wilhite suggests that a reasonable buyback offer would be the cars' value right before the company confessed. Lieber calculates that based on an average Blue Book price of $15, 145, VW would owe the US owners $7.3 billion. And then there are the other 10.5 million owners - at $15,145, that would cost VW an additional $159 billion.

Okay, so VW will get the US fines reduced and the average fine for illegal devices in non-US cars will not be as high. And VW will not offer to pay blue book values to current owners. But keep in mind, VW only earned $13.4 billion in 2014.

Conclusions

1. Lawyers are going make a lot of money.

2. This might be "Auf Wiedersehen" for VW/Porsche/Audi.

 

Thanks for your compassion, smog cops... 

[swamptiger]

Consumers were bullied into using diesel in the first place - particularly in Europe, believing they were using a more "eco-friendly" fuel.

The debate is already underway as to whether natural gas is actually cleaner than diesel in commercial vehicles.

Edited October 1, 2015 by swamptiger

[Scott K]

A couple thoughts, of those 11 million, how many already have aftermarket programmers in them to produce better mileage, or more power? 

If this cheat gives the car 30% better economy, how much better for the economy is it to make it burn 30% more fuel? With the fact to produce diesel in the refineries produces a lot of emmissions as well. 

 

So when the US government fines these companies, where does that fine money go? Who gets it?

 

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to cheaters, not only VW, but Audi, Porche, and several other small diesel vehicles. 

 

While I would much rather see these vehicles getting maximum economy, and I think US regulations are to tough, they purposely broke the law, and lied about it. They will be fined, and will be required to fix the vehicles. I think the fine should be tied to how many vehicles don't get the recall done within a certain amount of time. Such as $10,000 per car that doesn't get the recall completed within 2 years. This will get them to hurry to get people to get in to get it fixed. I hope they don't decide to over fine the companies and cause them to go bankrupt.

 

Hopefully this not only teaches manufacturers a lesson, but hopefully the Government law makers realize their strict laws are to strict for manufacturers to meet the requirements and be efficient at the same time. 

[LMITOUT]

I can't wait for how much cooler it will be outside after they get these illegal VW cars fixed. 

*rollseyes*

[delcecchi]

I can't wait for how much cooler it will be outside after they get these illegal VW cars fixed. 

*rollseyes*

 

Trying to retrieve this thread from turning into sillytown....

The issue with VW diesels is NOx, which is not connected to alleged global climate change.  It is connected to smog and breathing. 

In fact, fixing them could cause them to emit MORE carbon than unfixed, thereby adding to alleged climate change.    And since Europe has carbon limits in grams/kilometer, and US has CAFE, it might be difficult to meet both of those while fixing the NOx. 

[swamptiger]

So when the US government fines these companies, where does that fine money go? Who gets it?

 

It will all be refunded to consumers who got sucked into the scam.... 

[LMITOUT]

 

Trying to retrieve this thread from turning into sillytown....

The issue with VW diesels is NOx, which is not connected to alleged global climate change.  It is connected to smog and breathing.  

 

 

You must be a real hoot at parties. 

 

[delcecchi]

You must be a real hoot at parties. 

 

This is a party?  Who knew? 

[Powerstroke]

Swamptiger, I don't think any consumer was bullied into purchasing diesels. Diesel fuel is a superior fuel. It produces more BTU per unit of volume and is cheaper and easier to refine. I would argue Americans are bullied into buying gasoline powered cars. I have nothing against gasoline powered vehicles, but there is no reason that the selection of diesel motors is so limited in this country. 

 

Most americans are biased against diesels because of the image of black smoke billowing from heavy trucks and loud rattling motors. The modern diesel is quiet, economical, powerful and efficient. However, the federal government has added taxes and surcharges to diesel fuel that makes it cost more than it truly costs to produce. In the mid 2000's the govt decided to blame semi trucks for all the earths problems and for causing all the highway damage and instead of finding a proper way to fund its roads, they chose to tax diesel fuel and say they were passing the price onto truckers and fleet companies. Thats how the price of diesel went from being far less than gasoline to far more than gasoline. 

 

Fortunately, several automakers are still supporting the demand for diesel motors in vehicles that are not heavy duty trucks. 

[delcecchi]

On the other hand...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/11280067/London-will-follow-Paris-and-ban-diesel-cars-campaigners-warn.html

London will follow Paris and introduce an outright ban on diesel cars which are causing "serious health damage" in the capital, campaigners warn.

The Mayor of Paris has announced radical plans to ban diesel cars from the French capital by 2020 due to concerns about how much pollution the cars cause.

Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, is also grappling with the issue of how to tackle pollution from the fuels fumes which contain tiny particles and nitrogen oxides and have been increasingly proven to be seriously damaging to health.

France, which has the highest number of diesel cars on the road, will now ban the cars out right with Anne Hidalgo, the Parisian Mayor pledging "an end to diesel in Paris in 2020".

She also said the city would have more semi-pedestrianised areas with special zones introduced at weekends.

 

Boris Johnson currently plans to raise the congestion charge for diesel cars by £10 in a move to cut air pollution.

The change would mean diesel drivers could have to pay a total of £20 to get into Central London.

Under the plans petrol cars registered before 2006 would also have to pay extra under the plans which the Mayor wants in place by 2020.

However campaigners say this will not be enough and London will still be following the Parisian example with an outright ban.

Stephen Joseph, of the Campaign for Better Transport, said: "I think the motor industry is wholly unprepared for the way in which the science is turning against diesels. The sciences is hardening up and it is showing different and serious health damage which is a really serious problem.

"All this emerging science I was going to have wide ranging ramifications, both in terms of the kind of cars we drive and where they are driven.

"London is very polluted and busy. Where Paris goes London won't be far behind - London is already talking about an ultra low emission zone, banning all sorts of diesel vehicles, this is not unlikely that they will banned altogether in the same way Paris has done."

In Britain, about 29,000 premature deaths a year are thought to be caused by air pollution and people living in London, Birmingham and Leeds will be exposed to dangerous air pollution from engine fumes until the 2030s unless stricter rules are imposed, according to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

Earlier this year Mr Johnson' Mayor’s senior advisor for environment and energy Matthew Pencharz, said: “When it comes to tackling London’s air pollution. and protecting the health and well-being of all Londoners, diesel cars are an issue which must be addressed.

“Over recent years the Euro diesel engine standards have not delivered the emission savings expected, yet governments have been incentivising us to buy them. This has left us with a generation of dirty diesels.”

"Cllr Caroline Russell, Green Party Local Transport spokesperson, said: "This is the third EAC report in five years and scandalously there has been no government action since the last report in 2011.

"Quite clearly our health is being severely damaged by exposure to polluted air caused by traffic emissions particularly from diesel vehicles."

"The hand wringing has to stop. We need brave political action to tackle our over-dependence on motorised private transport. That means investing seriously in public transport, scrapping the proposed new roads and ensuring that everyone has access to safe convenient networks of walking and cycling routes."

[RebelSS]

Well, all this takes the heat off those nasty cowz...

 

 

 

 

 Jeezum! Now you can even get compensation!! Let's all jump on the bandwagon!!! 

 

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/AY7S/pulaski-and-middleman-volkswagen-recall

Edited October 3, 2015 by RebelSS

[Ufatz]

Cows ain't nothin' compared to my little brother when he gets goin' after a night of beer and baked beans!

[delcecchi]

Another interesting story about how this happened, in the
WSJ

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-emissions-probe-zeroes-in-on-two-engineers-1444011602

WOLFSBURG, Germany—Two top Volkswagen engineers who found they couldn’t deliver as promised a clean diesel engine for the U.S. market are at the center of a company probe into the installation of engine software designed to fool regulators, according to people familiar with the matter.

The two men, Ulrich Hackenberg, Audi ’s chief engineer, and Wolfgang Hatz, developer of Porsche’s winning Le Mans racing engines, were among the engineers suspended in the investigation of the emissions cheating scandal that sank the company’s market value by 43% since Sept. 18 and triggered a world-wide recall to refit the engines to meet clear-air standards, these people said.

Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz, who didn’t respond to requests for comment, are viewed as two of the best and brightest engineers in German industry. They were put in charge of research and development at the Volkswagen group shortly after Martin Winterkorn became chief executive in January 2007. Mr. Winterkorn, who resigned over the scandal, couldn’t be reached for comment.

The company has acknowledged that managers, struggling to meet U.S. sales targets, masked the emissions of new-car engines to sell so-called clean diesel technology to skeptical American consumers. The car maker said as many as 11 million vehicles carried a “defeat device,” software that reduces tailpipe emissions only when the car is being tested, not on the road.

Several countries have since blocked sales of certain VW vehicles, and regulators are considering steps to tighten emissions standards for diesel engines.

The details haven’t been made public, but Volkswagen’s investigation is focused on Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz, Mr. Winterkorn’s top aides during his tenure at Audi, as well as Heinz-Jakob Neusser, head of development at the VW brand, people familiar with the matter said.

Mr. Neusser, also suspended, joined VW from Porsche in 2011, long after the diesel engines began production. He declined to comment.

Disclosure of the scam by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last month unleashed criminal investigations of Volkswagen and its management in the U.S. and Europe, and threatened to bury the company in shareholder and customer lawsuits for years.

“Our company was dishonest with the EPA, and the California Air Resources Board, and with all of you,” Michael Horn, head of Volkswagen of America, told dealers last month in New York City. “We’ve totally screwed up.”

For years, Volkswagen sought a triumph in the U.S. As part of an expansion of the company to sell at least 10 million cars a year by 2018, Mr. Winterkorn’s strategy was to be a leader in the world’s three biggest markets.

Under Mr. Winterkorn, Volkswagen became the biggest foreign car maker in China. In Europe, one in every four cars is now sold by one of Volkswagen’s eight car brands: VW; premium car maker Audi; sports car brand Porsche; Czech car maker Skoda; Spanish auto maker SEAT; and ultraluxury brands Bentley and Lamborghini.

VW hit its 10 million global target in 2014—four years earlier than planned—and passed Toyota Motor Co. and General Motors Co. to take the top spot in the first half of this year. But to dominate the global market it needed to increase U.S. sales.

Mr. Winterkorn gave U.S. executives a goal of more than tripling annual sales, to at least 800,000 vehicles, in a 10-year plan he set in 2008.

While popular in Germany, diesel-engine vehicles made up just 5% of the U.S. car market in 2007, when Mr. Winterkorn left Audi to be VW’s CEO. Seeing this as an advantage, diesel became the centerpiece of the U.S. campaign.

Volkswagen pitched U.S. buyers a powerful car with German engineering that met standards on tailpipe emissions by burning high-performance “clean diesel” fuel.

At Volkswagen headquarters in December, Mr. Winterkorn stood in a top-secret showroom known informally as Valhalla and leaned across the hood of a prototype sport-utility vehicle, the CrossBlue, to be built in Chattanooga, Tenn. One version was to have included the clean-diesel engine technology.

“The Yanks like things big,” he quipped to The Wall Street Journal about the vehicle.

The company’s clean-diesel strategy began a decade ago, when the Volkswagen brand was run by Wolfgang Bernhard, who was poached from rival Daimler AG by Bernd Pischetsrieder, Volkswagen CEO at the time. Mr. Bernhard set out to build a new diesel engine for the U.S. market, named the EA 189. Mr. Bernhard and Mr. Pischetsrieder last month issued a joint public statement “dismissing in the strongest possible terms” any connection with the emissions cheating scandal related to the EA 189.

 

As an outsider to VW, Mr. Bernhard faced resistance from Mr. Winterkorn and his engineers at Audi, according to a former VW executive. The disagreement came to a head, said the executive, who was involved in those discussions, when Mr. Bernhard licensed a new diesel technology for Volkswagen’s planned diesel engine. Called BlueTec, it had been developed by Mr. Berhnard’s former company, Daimler, and German supplier Robert Bosch GmbH.

“In light of tougher upcoming emissions standards, we felt it important to use diesel technology that would stand for the next 15 years,” the executive present at the meetings said, referring to BlueTec. This person said many engineers felt VW’s own technology couldn’t yield sufficiently clean emissions.

But at engine-group meetings in Wolfsburg, Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz, the Audi engineers under Mr. Winterkorn, opposed Mr. Bernhard’s decision to drop VW’s technology, according to the person who was there.

By the end of 2006, Mr. Bernhard’s team had a working prototype of the engine. Then, in December 2006, Ferdinand Piech, grandson of Beetle inventor Ferdinand Porsche, and chairman of VW at the time, pushed out Mr. Pischetsrieder, the Volkswagen CEO. Mr. Bernhard left in January 2007.

Key Events

 

1999: The Lupo 3L TDI, for turbo- charged direct injection, features a high-pressure fuel-injection system which Volkswagen integrates into other models, lowering fuel consumption by 15%

2005: Volkswagen begins work on developing BlueTec clean diesel engine

2006: Volkswagen introduces the Polo BlueMotion, fitted with a diesel- particulate filter, at the Geneva Motor Show

2007: Martin Winterkorn is appointed chief executive

2007: In August, Volkswagen cancels cooperation with Daimler, Bosch on BlueTec

2008: VW investigators believe VW employees installed defeat device on EA 189 engines

2011: Volkswagen opens a new plant in Chattanooga, Tenn

Sept. 18, 2015: EPA discloses that VW cheated on emissions tests of diesel-powered cars

Sept. 20: Volkswagen admits that it cheated on U.S. emissions tests

Sept. 22: Volkswagen says 11 million cars affected by illegal software

Sept. 23: VW CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns under pressure

Sept. 25: Porsche chief Matthias Müller named CEO of Volkswagen group

Sept. 29: VW announces plans for massive recall of 11 million vehicles

—Source: Staff reports

Mr. Winterkorn became chief executive and put Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz in charge of the Volkswagen R&D group and engine development. The two engineers had worked together devising new Volkswagen cars during the critical years when the vehicle maker struggled to develop diesel engines to conform to tough U.S. nitrogen oxide emissions standards.

Months later, in August 2007, Volkswagen canceled the licensing deal for BlueTec with Daimler because it didn’t want to use its competitor’s brand. It rebranded the company’s diesel engine TDI—for turbocharged direct injection.

The emissions-cheating software is believed to have been installed on the EA 189 engine sometime before it went into production in 2008, according to two people familiar with the matter.

Mr. Hackenberg, a career Volkswagen engineer who worked on developing concepts for Audi models from 2002 to early 2007, is credited with developing VW’s modular manufacturing.

In an interview last year, Mr. Hackenberg described presenting Mr. Piech in the 1990s with a model to build a new Audi, which would eventually become the A4.

Sometime later, Mr. Hackenberg said he got the idea to build a longer car on the same platform as the A4. He made the proposal to Mr. Piech, giving birth to the Audi A6. Later, when he was CEO of Volkswagen, Mr. Piech asked Mr. Hackenberg to build a VW Passat on the same platform.

Volkswagen now builds SUVs by VW, Audi, Porsche, Bentley and—soon—Lamborghini on the same platform. The models all sprang from Mr. Hackenberg’s idea to shrink and then grow the Audi sedan. He returned to Audi in 2013.

Mr. Hatz, a car racing enthusiast, joined Volkswagen in 2001. He spent much of his career in engine development with stints at BMW, Opel and Fiat. He ran Audi’s engine development program, from 2001 to February 2007, when he also oversaw engine development for Volkswagen.

Since 2011, he has run research and development at Porsche. In June, Porsche won the 24-hour car race at Le Mans, ending Audi’s five-year winning streak after only its second year returning to the endurance motor-racing event.

Both men developed an international reputation as engineers, said Ferdinand Dudenhöffer head of the Center of Automotive Research at the University of Duisburg-Essen.

“It will be difficult for Volkswagen to replace them,” he said.

Sorry about the couple of blank areas.  They come along with the chart I left in.

[RebelSS]

Cows ain't nothin' compared to my little brother when he gets goin' after a night of beer and baked beans!

Maybe he could get a job at VW..... Fartin'nugen. 

[swamptiger]

Swamptiger, I don't think any consumer was bullied into purchasing diesels. Diesel fuel is a superior fuel. It produces more BTU per unit of volume and is cheaper and easier to refine. I would argue Americans are bullied into buying gasoline powered cars. I have nothing against gasoline powered vehicles, but there is no reason that the selection of diesel motors is so limited in this country. 

 

Most americans are biased against diesels because of the image of black smoke billowing from heavy trucks and loud rattling motors. The modern diesel is quiet, economical, powerful and efficient. However, the federal government has added taxes and surcharges to diesel fuel that makes it cost more than it truly costs to produce. In the mid 2000's the govt decided to blame semi trucks for all the earths problems and for causing all the highway damage and instead of finding a proper way to fund its roads, they chose to tax diesel fuel and say they were passing the price onto truckers and fleet companies. Thats how the price of diesel went from being far less than gasoline to far more than gasoline. 

 

Fortunately, several automakers are still supporting the demand for diesel motors in vehicles that are not heavy duty trucks. 

Maybe a bad choice of words on my part.  I should have said "enticed" buyers into buying diesels in Europe.  And there are several factors at play discouraging the purchase of diesels here in the U.S.  

But a car manufacturer finally comes up with a vehicle that will do 60+ mpg, and the government goes on a campaign to shut them down.  Go figure.

[delcecchi]

The government regulations existed before VW released the diesel.  And VW chose not to license technology from another car maker but use their own design.  I surmise that after they had cancelled the license that they had from Daimler Bosch and got done with their own design they found out it wouldn't meet existing American or European pollution standards.   Then the engineers and engineering management had a decision to make.  Do they fall on their swords and tell the big boss that his pet engine design really wasn't going to work? 

Here is the money quote from the WSJ article I posted above. 

As an outsider to VW, Mr. Bernhard faced resistance from Mr. Winterkorn and his engineers at Audi, according to a former VW executive. The disagreement came to a head, said the executive, who was involved in those discussions, when Mr. Bernhard licensed a new diesel technology for Volkswagen’s planned diesel engine. Called BlueTec, it had been developed by Mr. Berhnard’s former company, Daimler, and German supplier Robert Bosch GmbH.

“In light of tougher upcoming emissions standards, we felt it important to use diesel technology that would stand for the next 15 years,” the executive present at the meetings said, referring to BlueTec. This person said many engineers felt VW’s own technology couldn’t yield sufficiently clean emissions.

But at engine-group meetings in Wolfsburg, Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz, the Audi engineers under Mr. Winterkorn, opposed Mr. Bernhard’s decision to drop VW’s technology, according to the person who was there.

By the end of 2006, Mr. Bernhard’s team had a working prototype of the engine. Then, in December 2006, Ferdinand Piech, grandson of Beetle inventor Ferdinand Porsche, and chairman of VW at the time, pushed out Mr. Pischetsrieder, the Volkswagen CEO. Mr. Bernhard left in January 2007.

........

Mr. Winterkorn became chief executive and put Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz in charge of the Volkswagen R&D group and engine development. The two engineers had worked together devising new Volkswagen cars during the critical years when the vehicle maker struggled to develop diesel engines to conform to tough U.S. nitrogen oxide emissions standards.

Months later, in August 2007, Volkswagen canceled the licensing deal for BlueTec with Daimler because it didn’t want to use its competitor’s brand. It rebranded the company’s diesel engine TDI—for turbocharged direct injection.

The emissions-cheating software is believed to have been installed on the EA 189 engine sometime before it went into production in 2008, according to two people familiar with the matter.

For those who have worked in big technology type companies, this is a familiar story.   Only VW couldn't afford to start over.  It was too late in the process. 

It is easy for those of us who live in places where pollution from cars and trucks isn't  noticeable problem to say "Oh well, just let them pollute".   And maybe the NOx standards were stricter than they needed to be, but they knew the rules and for internal reasons decided to violate the law. 

And I just saw where they aren't sure how to make the 2009 models conform.  Just a software fix apparently won't do it. 

 

[Ufatz]

I'm  a diesel fan.   Have owned diesel Land Rover that we drove all over AK and Yukon. Owned a couple Ford /3/4 tons with big diesels in them and loved the power and the economy wasn't bad even pulling 30' Airstream thousands of miles. But had my MBenz in for some service and the dealership game me a Jetta diesel  loaner and frankly, it was pretty crude little car. Oh, it was nice enough I guess,  but sure didn't set my little heart aflutter.

Whoever cooked up this scheme at VW should have his Farvignugen pin taken away and be sent off to exile in a Hyundai plant.

[swamptiger]

What's the (real world) difference in impact in terms of overall emissions between diesel cars that are getting between 60 and 90 mpg, and gasoline powered cars that get from 20 to 40 mpg?

And what's the impact in terms of loss of tax revenue for diesels?