Audit Push: Time To Act!

[mntatonka]

So does Clint (think there's another guy doing the same thing this year?) spend his time working in units other than 346 and 349 then?

I would imagine he's still working the complaints in those areas, as well as others in the southeast. From my understanding, he does more than just give out the tags (they were actually pretty difficult to get). He works with the landowners to create other alternatives as well, including fencing.

[smsmith]

I would imagine he's still working the complaints in those areas, as well as others in the southeast. From my understanding, he does more than just give out the tags (they were actually pretty difficult to get). He works with the landowners to create other alternatives as well, including fencing.

Gotcha...makes sense

[delcecchi]

The MN DPS shows car deer collisions down nearly 50% over the last 10 years.

State Farm says car deer collisions are up 42% over the same span.

Try and figure that one out.....

When my daughter hit a deer near Pine Island a few years ago the only folks she reported it to was the insurance co. She certainly didn't call the cops and sit around, since her car was perfectly drivable.

[hockeybc69]

Thats fine.

So have people just stop calling LEOs more and more over the years and used to call them for every accident back 10 years ago?

My guess is that the situation your daughter was in she would have done the same thing 10 years ago, or if it happened yesterday.

So that doesnt explain how the DPS numbers have dropped nearly 50%.

[PurpleFloyd]

T

So that doesnt explain how the DPS numbers have dropped nearly 50%.

An article in White Tail Life magazine last month said that their suicide rate is down 50% over the last decade.

Coincidence? I think not.

[jkcmj]

Thats fine.

So have people just stop calling LEOs more and more over the years and used to call them for every accident back 10 years ago?

My guess is that the situation your daughter was in she would have done the same thing 10 years ago, or if it happened yesterday.

So that doesnt explain how the DPS numbers have dropped nearly 50%.

Actually, for a number of reasons, the answer is yes...people call Law enforcement less frequently now. Fewer people are keeping the road kill deer than used too. In order to legally take them home you had to get a cop to give you the road tag...also, insurance companies, like State Farm, have become more "customer is right" focused and are no longer mandating a police report for deer collisions...I havn't even been asked for one the last two I hit.

[jkcmj]

Both of mine were reported to law enforcement, but only becuase I wanted to eat them

[btheturkey]

Question for those hunters who don't want the audit.

How low can we let hunter satisfaction with deer seen on stand drop before you perceive an issue?

SE MN dropped below 50% in the 2013 survey. Numbers will be in for much of the rest of the state late this winter or early next year.

The last round of surveys had areas with 66% of the hunters satisfied to a degree with deer seen on stand.

How far can that number drop before we act?

I still can not figure out why so many here do not want to see better model and herd monitoring techniques implemented.

[btheturkey]

I think the DNR utilize the best they find for population data...ELS harvest data isn't as accurate a factor as it used to be here in SE MN. We have so many vast property owners now that let deer numbers go crazy on their 1000 acres that it affects the population estimates. We have a vast property owner here in the Wiscoy/Houston MN area where you can often count 100 plus deer as the fall harvest goes out, yet 3 miles away you can sit without seeing a deer all season...It's simply a matter of large tracts holding deer do to low pressure, large food plots, etc, where a very small number are getting harvested.

I don't know what the answer to that one is...

Our land was hard hit by us, back when it was a limit of 5, so we suffered for it. Now, after 4 years of taking no does, we finally have a visible deer herd again...we will be more careful in the future, I think that is the real answer. Controling yourself when localized populations are not as strong as the zone as a whole.

Spot on. Times and deer hunting have changed. Zone 346 in SE is the most heavily monitored area in the entire state of MN, and the model missed the mark on the deer herd by 54%. That is a fail. Model estimated there were 16 dpsm, helicopter told them it was 35 dpsm. So out comes the wide paintbrush that will cover the whole zone with 5 anterless tags per guy and continue to decrease satisfaction with deer seen on stand as the hot pockets stay hot and the cold pockets grow colder.

The model and our herd monitoring techniques need addressed in the low deer areas as well as the high deer areas, and our state agency will never admit there is a problem.

The above scenario is what audits exist for. To make sure state agencies are doing the best possible job managing a resource.

[Farmsfulltime]

Nothing biting today I guess ?

[Getanet]

To make sure state agencies are doing the best possible job managing a resource.

As you say, Zone 346 is the most heavily monitored zone in the state. Gets far too much attention IMHO. And yet the DNR apparently can't get it right and the some hunters there aren't happy.

So, with 90% of the attention on one tiny little pocket of the state, and still not getting the results people want, sounds like a bit of a hopeless cause for the vast majority of the state.

I'm not against the audit, but I'm not signing the petition either. This doesn't seem to be rocket science. Limit the doe tags for a year or two and the population can quickly turn around.

[PurpleFloyd]

That scenario is what audits exist for?

Pray tell what an audit will do to increase the satisfaction of a guy sitting in a stand on 20 acres when the guy bordering him has 1000 acres that is posted and holding the deer?

[hockeybc69]

Does said landowner with 1000 acres have a high fence or not?

[delcecchi]

Does said landowner with 1000 acres have a high fence or not?

You don't think deer can tell when people suddenly appear on a piece of property and are walking around and doing other stuff? Weird stuff in one area, same-old same-old in another. Where will deer be most comfortable?

[btheturkey]

Pray tell what an audit will do to increase the satisfaction of a guy sitting in a stand on 20 acres when the guy bordering him has 1000 acres that is posted and holding the deer?

If the model and herd monitoring techniques are better able to address problem hot spots at the source, we can do away will the 5 antlerless tags that blanket entire zones, lessening the cold pockets created by groups killing every deer they see in areas that do not have too many deer.

Selling 5 doe tags per guy in zones that are south of 50% hunter satisfaction for deer seen on stand is not a great solution.

Our DNR wants to manage for fewer deer than we did 10 years ago, but they want to to it with the same tools and techniques, and it is not working. Hunter satisfaction is on its way down, and if we think selling 5 antler less tags per hunter is going to do anything but continue the decline we are mistaken.

[mntatonka]

If the model and herd monitoring techniques are better able to address problem hot spots at the source, we can do away will the 5 antlerless tags that blanket entire zones, lessening the cold pockets created by groups killing every deer they see in areas that do not have too many deer.

Selling 5 doe tags per guy in zones that are south of 50% hunter satisfaction for deer seen on stand is not a great solution.

Our DNR wants to manage for fewer deer than we did 10 years ago, but they want to to it with the same tools and techniques, and it is not working. Hunter satisfaction is on its way down, and if we think selling 5 antler less tags per hunter is going to do anything but continue the decline we are mistaken.

and yet those areas with 5 tags this year are areas that have a history of a population problem, and are proven to still have that problem. These are areas that NEED a decline, and can definitely handle it.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

You don't think deer can tell when people suddenly appear on a piece of property and are walking around and doing other stuff? Weird stuff in one area, same-old same-old in another. Where will deer be most comfortable?

I am very happy to take my odds living on 20 acres next to a 1000 acre "sanctuary".. Are you frickin kidding? Thats a no brainer.

Sure beats the alternative, where everyone is on small tracts and brings in a herd of people with rifles every year and mows down everything that moves because the DNR allows them to mow em down for years on end.

[btheturkey]

and yet those areas with 5 tags this year are areas that have a history of a population problem, and are proven to still have that problem. These are areas that NEED a decline, and can definitely handle it.

The areas that hold the absurd numbers that cause problems need a decline. True. But those areas are a very small fraction of the entire zone.

I don't know the percentage, but I would guess 85% and likely more of the zone has far fewer than 15 dpsm of habitat. Yet those 'below goal' areas are allowed 5 antler less tags per hunter. And every year hunter satisfaction lessens.

[SmellEsox]

and yet those areas with 5 tags this year are areas that have a history of a population problem, and are proven to still have that problem. These are areas that NEED a decline, and can definitely handle it.

So the management is failing. They need to do something different. They could give 20 tags per hunter and you'd still have the same issue if these large property owners aren't killing enough deer. You have got to hit the hot areas in a different way. You can't just keep hammering the dump out of the rest of the permit area when it isn't helping farmers with problems.

[creepworm]

I am very happy to take my odds living on 20 acres next to a 1000 acre "sanctuary".. Are you frickin kidding? Thats a no brainer.

Sure beats the alternative, where everyone is on small tracts and brings in a herd of people with rifles every year and mows down everything that moves because the DNR allows them to mow em down for years on end.

Or people are mowing down does because for years they were told to shoot does if they want big bucks.

[btheturkey]

Or people are mowing down does because for years they were told to shoot does if they want big bucks.

I agree that the 'shoot does for the sake of the herd' message has created a huge mess in much of MN. Places people could not figure out when to stop shooting the does have low population problems right now.

It works in states like MS where they have no winter, fawns breed and drop next year and triplets are common. MN - not so much.

Average hunter in MS kills 2.2 deer per year. Average hunter in MN kills about .3. Our DNR sells more tags than there are adult deer.

Its a whole different world as you travel north to south.

[mntatonka]

The areas that hold the absurd numbers that cause problems need a decline. True. But those areas are a very small fraction of the entire zone.

I don't know the percentage, but I would guess 85% and likely more of the zone has far fewer than 15 dpsm of habitat. Yet those 'below goal' areas are allowed 5 antler less tags per hunter. And every year hunter satisfaction lessens.

[Getanet]

Just found a very interesting thread entitled "MN APR Expansion." Seems to support my original skepticism of what the MDDI is truly about and what the ultimate goal is. It would be educational to read the whole thing through and come to your own conclusions before signing any petition. Takes a bit to decipher who the players are, but Bat Man = Brooks Johnson. Ssmith = the same one here. Give this whole thread read if you're interested, but here are a few quotes:

11/19/2013. Brooks(AKA Bat Man)"Keep writing letters and emails to MN Outdoor News and the legislature to build awareness and public support. Very important. Better deer numbers come first, followed by yearling buck protection."

11/19/2013. Ssmith "Awesome...feed me the "party line" and I'll duplicate it "

http://www.qdma.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-58992.html

[mntatonka]

I agree that the 'shoot does for the sake of the herd' message has created a huge mess in much of MN. Places people could not figure out when to stop shooting the does have low population problems right now.

It works in states like MS where they have no winter, fawns breed and drop next year and triplets are common. MN - not so much.

Average hunter in MS kills 2.2 deer per year. Average hunter in MN kills about .3. Our DNR sells more tags than there are adult deer.

Its a whole different world as you travel north to south.

not bad considering the average doe has 1.3-1.6 fawns per year. Stop shooting the does (like the majority of the state is doing this year), and your population will rebound quite quickly.

[btheturkey]

Just found a very interesting thread entitled "MN APR Expansion." Seems to support my original skepticism of what the MDDI is truly about and what the ultimate goal is. It would be educational to read the whole thing through and come to your own conclusions before signing any petition. Takes a bit to decipher who the players are, but Bat Man = Brooks Johnson. Ssmith = the same one here. Give this whole thread read if you're interested, but here are a few quotes:

11/19/2013. Brooks(AKA Bat Man)"Keep writing letters and emails to MN Outdoor News and the legislature to build awareness and public support. Very important. Better deer numbers come first, followed by yearling buck protection."

11/19/2013. Ssmith "Awesome...feed me the "party line" and I'll duplicate it "

http://www.qdma.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-58992.html

100% accurate. Since then the tune has changed.

The quote you reference was pre MDDI. MDDI was formed in December of 2013, and never has a mention of any form of buck protection come into play.

APR's are no longer on our table. We stopped the talk as it is used a herd reduction tool and we don't need herd reduction across 98% of MN. We wanted an initiative most would back, and the excessive reduction of the deer herd was it.

My conclusion is APR's were likely placed in SE MN to put additional pressure on the does. And they have accomplished just that. Biologically APRs shift harvest to the doe herd, and when you kill enough does, the herd shrinks.The herd reduction accelerated with the 4 on a side rule.